At my wits end...story follow on.....

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Zipzop

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So I have posted recently about my very difficult section D cob. Brief history of situation is that I have owned him for nine years he is about twelve now. Four years ago we restarted and retrained classical. We have had good and bad times, but he seems to have gotten worse as he has got older.
I posted on here and got lots of advice about pain etc. he is bitless, treeless, barefoot has regular body work sessions and has now been checked and cleared of all 'pain'.
I recently contacted a holistic vet which my classical instructor, of many years, spent much time using. This vet advised that she sees many issues my boy displays, over sensitivity external and internal, inability to learn and progress. She equates this usually to disturbances in the bacteria in the gut causing pain and other associated symptoms, and believes she could help.
I had been riding again recently after some time off for both of us due to one thing or another. He struggles to hack, we cannot go faster than a walk as he becomes so strong I'm unable to stop either in a bit or bitless. and I can only go on one route as he can't cope with new things/routes. He is quite spooky and rushing anyway. In the school he rushes away from using his hind end constantly. I seem unable to reason with him to slow down listen to me and my instructor who is very experienced has the same problems. He is terrified if anyone else rides him.
In our most recent lesson, my instructor got my position as perfect as possible, my back was engaged and seat good and in neutral spine. Once we had done this, my horse could just about manage a walk but to trot with my position so much more correct sent him into a panic and he just span on the spot and rushed off.
My instructor seemed to think, and she has done many years of investigating on this, that he was unwilling to lengthen himself and let go of his right side which indicates digestive symptoms, poss low grade colic type symptoms which affect him when he is asked to change his body during work.
I am absolutely fed up with not getting anywhere, I have been trying so hard for so many years and we can barely walk let alone trot, we haven't cantered in years. It would seem that he can't be ridden correctly ie classical and to let him just go along in his own frame etc sends him also into panic and he just gets stronger and stronger and completely unmanageable.
My question is if there are digestive imbalances causing problems the holistic vets answer is to kill off the bad bacteria and repopulate with good bacteria. But unless I can get to the cause of the bad bacteria being present and why the bacteria is bad, how can I stop this just coming back. And if I can't get to the bottom of whatever the issue is, I just don't think I have any more fight left in me to keep trying.
He is only twelve and I don't have the option of just turning him away as he is prone to being overweight. I don't have funds for two horses so it looks like my riding career could be over, that's a really hard pill to swallow, I feel like my only option is to retire him. I would never sell him as I do love him and want to always make sure he is looked after, but that's really leaves me in a crappy position.
 
I'm afraid I don't have much to offer you by the way of advice, as I am not emotionally involved I'm inclined to say retire him and find a share horse to ride. Realistically you are looking at 15 years plus of this, how is he in the field? Could he perhaps turn nanny to some youngsters? these types are always useful for that!
I admire your determination to stick with him and help him into full health but I wonder if you may be better off giving up on the riding if it distresses him so.
As a good doer he still could live out on rougher grazing, there are some places around that do grass livery.

Good luck OP, I feel for you but it sounds like you have done everything you possibly can.
Is he on probiotics! What treatment is your holistic contact advising?
 
My mare got incredibly strong and spooky when her gut was out of balance. She was riddled with sand despite monthly sand out. Now I'm not saying yours is at all but your holistic vet may be right that his gut's unbalanced. By repopulating the good bacteria you are allowing them to thrive.All humans and animals need good and bad bacteria in their gut but you should have more good than bad, by resetting this you should find he stays that way. Bad often thrives when good is compromised. You could try feeding a pre and pro biotic. I feed alfalfa and yeasacc for healthy hind gut.

His behaviour will also be ingrained now so perhaps try this approach but give him time as its going to take a while to learn it doesn't hurt any more.
 
You don't owe him a thing. You have tried and tried and tried to help him. There are some horses that you can't help, not that there isn't a solution somewhere, just that the solution is so deeply hidden or in his past, maybe a congenital issue, or damage when born or as a foal that no-one anywhere can fix and he simply is not meant to be a riding horse.

You love him, but does he give you any pleasure at all? Could you borrow a horse to ride for a while, is there a share horse that you could take to lessons and have some fun with. You could try turning him away in a bunch of horses for 12 months and then try again, and in the meantime find something to borrow - someone with a young baby, someone at university, there always seem to be people looking for a temporary home for their horse.
 
Have you asked the holistic vet the question about preventing bad bacteria reoccurring? I think that would be a question for her.

It sounds like you have tried incredibly hard over a long period of time and invested time and money into the situation. I think it is OK that you have had/done enough, riding is supposed to be enjoyable ultimately.

Sounds like you are ready to draw the line and say enough is enough. There is nothing wrong with that, you have done everything you reasonably can and more than many would.

There is another option, have you considered pts?
 
Has your own non-holistic vet cleared him for ulcers? Then again, he may have hindgut issues. You could try chia seeds and something like protexin. Zaps the ulcers and repopulates the gut.
 
I'm going to go against the grain and suggest maybe schooling really isn't for him? Maybe he just can't relax into it and/or is bored - I know natives have an active mind and can be strong willed and like to show their frustrations. I have a D too, and although he is good to school he loves to hack even if he can be a spooky idiot (but thats part and parel of being a welsh)

I know you said your boy is strong hacking, so is mine :) - sometimes he is an absolute tank but I think the worst thing to do is try and hold them too much and interfere - sometimes you just need to let them go for it and kick up their heels. You do sound like you worry and maybe that transfers to your horse? As a final resort i'd see if there was someone confident and calm willing to try him just hacking, let him have a good blast and some fun where his schooling doesn't matter...
 
Personally I'd go with the vet's recommendations and get the bacteria sorted. At least you'll know you did the right thing there and you may just gain a happy horse.☺
Don't waste your life fretting about where the bad bacteria came from, my understanding is that not all are traceable, just feed decent fodder and hay, and hope that they don't return. Also clean buckets etc with anti- bacterial wash, perhaps? If he does get a relapse then you'll recognise the symptoms much quicker second time around.
 
to my mind it seems that you want to teach him to be a classical dressage horse and that is the way you teach him. However you can only teach a horse in the way that it can learn. Having had a sec D I think it would have struggled as well. He was just about the most difficult breed of horse I have had. He would be trotting in one direction and in an instant would have turned round and be trotting the other way. Once we spent ages sitting looking at a cat as he was too upset to go past it. Our cat slept on his back at home. Different cat. He just couldn't learn or rationalise. Nothing about him was rational. I just had to accept it and work with whatever he gave me. I think some of the sec D's are not very easy.


Is your horse having fun and enjoying himself? I think Merlod has made some good suggestions. To get anything out of him you may have to give up on your classical ideals and training and schooling and ride him in a manner and doing the things he likes. Even though you are interested in that sort of riding and schooling he doesn't seem to be and you cannot make him enjoy it I would guess that a sec D may not be the first choice for someone keen on classical training.

I had a section D for many years and I currently have a part spanish. There is a very big difference. I don't think the sec. D would have even got round a school he had far too many quirks but the part spanish will spend every moment listening to the slightest thought that I have, naturally carries himself nicely and enjoys that sort of riding.

If you think you have a gut problem try him on a tub of equishure. Not cheap but probably a lot less expensive than a vet. It works very well for hind gut problems and if that was the problem you may well see a difference relatively quickly.
 
My advice is a conventional one .
A work up from a vet who specialises in lack of performance type work ups .
What investigations has the horse had already ?
And how did the holistic vet come to her diagnosis ?
 
He sounded scarily like my boy who had ulcers, kissing spines and hock issues - if you feel you have tried your best and can't try anything else then you may have to have a think about making a decision regarding him. My vet said to me when i was going through a terrible time with my boy that some horses just aren't meant to be ridden...we put saddles on their backs and expect them to a degree to be good working riding horses and some unfortunately just can't do it.

I'm sorry if I sound negative, I hope you don't take baythig I've said the wrong way, I'm just saying what I think x
 
Surely having gone so far with the holistic vet, the sensible thing is now to follow her advice. I had a WelshDxTB who had terrible reactions to all cereals and refined sugar. She was effectively retired at 12. I hope that you have better luck with your horse.
 
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Discuss the matter with your vet as they have seen your horse. There are a number of similarities between what you are experiencing and my Welsh D (though she was never anywhere near as extreme as your chap sounds) She has been diagnosed with hind-gut acidosis. Treatment is possible but it does take time and his diet/management/work will be very important.

As for your question on the bad bacteria, the cause could be a number of things, or a combination of things. Some Ds are sensitive, they can 'worry themselves ill' too if they get stressed (for example my vets think that my mare was tipped over the edge by stress when her old companion died). To stop the bad bacteria coming back you will have to review your whole way of keeping him starting with his grub - basically low sugar/starch forage based, high-spec vits and mins, probably gut support supplements of some sort (mine has Equisure and mycotoxin binder daily). You may find that you will have to keep him off grass for parts of the year. It's a bit trial and error to find the right regime as it is different for every horse.

If his problems do stem from HGA, it can be hard work and you'll have to persuade him that things ain't going to hurt when ridden.

Good luck with your horse.
 
Blindingly obvious and potentially dumb question alert but have you had this horse scope for ulcers and has this included either a check for hindgut ulcers / use of a product that actually treats hindgut as well as stomach ulcers (If not then an avenue that's likely worth exploring if you're thinking some kind of digestive discomfort)

I'd also go with vets suggestions re (I'm presuming) pre and pro biotics and see if this does bring any improvement.

Also coming at this from a slightly random angle (I like to be random!) have you spoken to someone like forageplus about getting your grazing analysed to see if it has any serious nutritional deficiencies / mineral imbalances that may be affecting him. I have heard anecdotal evidence of such things having some impact on behaviour. Not saying it's a magic bullet but maybe part of a whole plan.

And from yet another angle have you considered calmers at any point? Equifeast do some very good ones (I only now don't use them as they don't really fit in with the other things I feed now plus the pony is a bit more sane these days most of the time)
 
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You have been given some good advice here especially from Boulty.
I have a similar frustration with my WB and we seem to lurch from one problem to the next. I have used an animal communicator with him and that has been extremely helpful. He has an osteopath out last night to give him cranial sacral therapy and the releases he was showing were prolific.
I have also just ordered a calmer which I intend to feed him long term to help him with his mental issues from past abuse he cannot let go of. I recommend a cereal free diet and adlib forage, mt boy is out 24/7 rugged with shelter.
The other thing worth exploring is doing Liberty work with your horse, again I intend to do just that having spent the past 2 years in and off classically training him with a lot of inhand shonic lunging for straightness. There are lots of videos and information out there regarding Liberty work, or horse agility. There are many ways to reach a goal. Just stay positive.
 
Kudos to you for trying and realising there's a problem... I'd give the rebalancing his gut a go. I put mine on horse and pony directs veteran balancer back in April. Best thing I've ever done. Has pre and pro biotics in it, joint support and all his vits and mins with no molasses or whole cereals. Cheapest balancer I've ever brought as well! He gets it with speedibeet for the probiotic effect as well. Speak to your holistic vet and give it a go maybe, alongside a dose of other pre and probiotics as a kick start?

Perhaps just go and have some fun, even if it's just clicker training or horse agility if you're not enjoying riding him? Perhaps see if you can get on to one of the Jason Webb camps as well for yourself and him. If he's not liking the classical approach, give it a break for a bit. Or just give him a holiday for a few months and start again come Spring?

I don't think he's a lost cause for you just yet. Go along with your holistic vets advice and your instructors.

Where in the country are you? I'm sure someone may be able to help you find a share if you want your horse to have a holiday but don't want to give up riding for a few months :)

You've received loads of good advice on here, give some of it a go and don't worry too much about seeing results tomorrow. I'm sure there's light at the end of the tunnel. Good luck :)
 
Goldenstar said:
My advice is a conventional one .
A work up from a vet who specialises in lack of performance type work ups .
What investigations has the horse had already ?
And how did the holistic vet come to her diagnosis ?
Click to expand...

Boulty said:
Blindingly obvious and potentially dumb question alert but have you had this horse scope for ulcers and has this included either a check for hindgut ulcers / use of a product that actually treats hindgut as well as stomach ulcers (If not then an avenue that's likely worth exploring if you're thinking some kind of digestive discomfort)

I'd also go with vets suggestions re (I'm presuming) pre and pro biotics and see if this does bring any improvement.

Also coming at this from a slightly random angle (I like to be random!) have you spoken to someone like forageplus about getting your grazing analysed to see if it has any serious nutritional deficiencies / mineral imbalances that may be affecting him. I have heard anecdotal evidence of such things having some impact on behaviour. Not saying it's a magic bullet but maybe part of a whole plan.
Click to expand...

The above
 
Goldenstar said:
My advice is a conventional one .
A work up from a vet who specialises in lack of performance type work ups .
What investigations has the horse had already ?
And how did the holistic vet come to her diagnosis ?
Click to expand...

This. I can't find anything on this or your previous threads where you say that this horse has been scoped for stomach ulcers, checked for hind gut ulcers, xrayed for joint issues or for kissing spines , had a gamma ray scintigraph, or any of the standard things that are necessary to rule out pain from the most common causes of pain in horses.

You make many references to body workers, but they cannot rule out pain. I know of three horses with kissing spines that were missed completely by body workers.

What standard veterinary tests have been done on this horse to rule out pain? Because it's screaming pain to me by your description.
 
ok op heres what I'd do. ditch any cereals the horse is having and also haylage. feed hay and a handful of hi fibre pellets just to catch the horse with. keep him out 24/7 apart from a few hours in the stable each morning to handle and groom/fuss. spend plenty of time with him , take him walks inhand. long rein him. ditch the instructor the holistic person and trust yourself. you lack confidence..investigate the kissing spines thing.
good luck
 
How does he behave in hand? Does he lunge or long rein more happily? Will he do any work led by you over poles?. Does he trot up in hand?. Does he trot and canter when loose in the field?
Sorry for all the questions but the answers could give us some clues.
 
Hi all,

I can't thank you all enough for your replies and reading my massive long post!
Here goes to answer all your questions;
He is fine in the field and with other horses. He is currently living in a paddock on his own with horses in neighbouring fields. I do feel he is lonely but it is the way this yard operates, he has lived there for a year. He trots and canters fine in the field.
It is not possible to just turn him away due to his weight issues he will get over weight very quickly and then I will have the dreaded other issues which go with that to worry about.
He has not had X-rays, thermal imaging, or scoped for ulcers. Both vets, holistic and normal and my instructor do not think it necessary as apparently he does not show correct symptoms. His weight is good, his faeces are fine, he seems happy and jolly in himself. He eats a mostly hay/grass diet and they have all said he doesn't show any signs for KS.
I would not have him pts as I feel he didn't come into this world to be a riding horse he came in as just a horse and i feel it is not ok for animals seemingly healthy to be pts just because they do not fulfill a human need.
He doesn't relax at all when ridden either in the school or out hacking.
I don't worry when riding him I am just frustrated by the whole lack of progress thing.
I understand he isn't a classical orientated breed but I'm not asking him to do anything other than walk and trot with improved posture, it's not like we are trying to do high school movements.
He likes the interaction of being ridden whether he likes the content of what we do I can't really tell amongst his wild behaviours!
If I ride him with the intention of doing what he finds easiest or likes the best he is no more manageable than when we are doing the schooling. He becomes strong, spooky, nappy and generally we don't have a good time. I feel like my arms are being pulled out the entire time.
His current diet is hay, grass, a mug full of copra and some seaweed.
We have not tried a hindgut balancer as yet.
Tried many calmers the only one which helped was hydrobase from trinity consultants.
For those who say give him some time off, he has just come back into work from having nine months off.
He is spooky and rushy in hand sometimes and especially if I'm not with him. I had someone turning him out for me but he terrified her so much and ended up galloping off with sthe lead rope still attached that I now have to handle him myself.
If I lunge him he goes batshit crazy and gallops round bucking.
Poles seem to stress him out as I guess he has to stretch and change his body to go over them.
He will trot up in hand ok and canter and trot round the field fine.

Sorry for the short sentences just wanted to answer all questions.

Thanks again for all the replies! :)
 
Please don't be offended by my response OP, but I only mention it to give you a further possible route. Have you ever sent him away fo a professional yard for a lengthy period (by which I mean a month, not a weekend)? And by sent away, I mean literally have no interaction with the horse for a week or so until the trainer tells you he is ready. Sometimes I think an individual person has a problem with an individual horse at a particular yard and it quickly becomes a downward spiral. If you change the ingredients (using the right trainer, of course) then sometimes the effects can be significant and relatively quick. My horse can be a totally different beast (both on the ground and under saddle) depending on who is dealing with him. I have worked out the types of people he responds best to and try to imitate how they deal with him. He is also better behaved away from home as a general rule.

Eta: this is of course intended to be advice additional to all of the health investigation advice above, and not a substitute for it!
 
Zipzop said:
Hi all,


I would not have him pts as I feel he didn't come into this world to be a riding horse he came in as just a horse and i feel it is not ok for animals seemingly healthy to be pts just because they do not fulfill a human need.
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absolutely agree with you. There are far too many horses PTS as they don't fulfill their rider's needs rather than being PTS due to illness when their quality of life is not acceptable. What happens if you drive him in long reins? My section D had so many of the things you describe yet I don't think he was ill, just in his case being a section D.

He just didn't seem to get much pleasure from being ridden or lunged etc. However put a set of long reins on and go off for a walk around the roads and he was a different horse. Sadly I think he should have been in a driving home rather than a riding one. I taught him to pull logs and harrows. He did fine with that but that is no use to you if you want to school.

Everything I wanted to do ridden he hated, ie trotting, cantering, small jumps etc. Yet put him out in the field and he did all of those on his own beautifully.
 
Zipzop said:
He has not had X-rays, thermal imaging, or scoped for ulcers. Both vets, holistic and normal and my instructor do not think it necessary as apparently he does not show correct symptoms. His weight is good, his faeces are fine, he seems happy and jolly in himself. He eats a mostly hay/grass diet and they have all said he doesn't show any signs for KS.
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I had multiple vets tell me that my horse couldn't possibly have ulcers as she didn't have symptoms and wasn't the 'type' (Welsh D) to get ulcers - she was acting in a similar way to your horse.
I pushed for scoping after a bad colic episode and she was found to have quite serious ulcers and is now a different horse after treatment.

Vets (holistic and normal) are only people and do make mistakes.
 
I'd agree with Golden star and have a full vet work up done.

If that all proves okay, then I'd look into increasing his workload, you say he goes crazy galloping on the lunge, but at some point he will burn off his energy and settle. I don't mean to be rude, but I do wonder if this horse is being given sufficient work, concentrating just on walk and trot and how he carries himself for years on end would have driven my old mare round the bend.

I would lunge and then take him for a good hack out, in a stronger bit if necessary and let him burn off some pent up energy.
 
He doesn't actually sound safe enough to be hacking out as you describe him. Not being able to stop outside of a walk is not good!

Vets often say they don't display classical symptoms but not all horses are the same, and they haven't all read the book/follow the manual re. forage diet = no ulcers. It is up to owners to insist for their horses - there have been plenty on here who have only got answers by being quite bolshy with vets and saying they no their horses better than the vets :p. I would not go any further without having him worked up properly, starting with scoping for ulcers - the issues with his right side could indicate this is possibly an issue. As it stands currently nothing has been ruled out and he could be struggling with all manner of things that I would want to clear up before deciding he is just a bit welsh (I do have a welsh myself). The fact that he has gotten worse with age makes me think something has been going and getting worse for him.
 
Zipzop said:
He has not had X-rays, thermal imaging, or scoped for ulcers. Both vets, holistic and normal and my instructor do not think it necessary as apparently he does not show correct symptoms. His weight is good, his faeces are fine, he seems happy and jolly in himself. He eats a mostly hay/grass diet and they have all said he doesn't show any signs for KS.
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I have known several horses with ulcers. None of them were underweight and they all had normal faeces. I have a mare here that has been out 24/7 all through the summer on good grass that is prone to ulcers. Hers were cleared by a course of gastoguard, but have resurfaced despite having constant forage and 24/7 turnout. She is shiny, of perfect weight and her droppings are normal. Her only symptoms have been a refusal to go forward under saddle. Like your boy she will hardly walk, let alone trot or canter. She has gone back on the treatment and is much improved.

My gelding had kissing spine that was missed by two physios and two vets. I only found out he had it when I insisted they X-ray his spine. Your horse is screaming out that he is in pain and needs these investigations doing if you are to have any hope of riding him.

I would not have him pts as I feel he didn't come into this world to be a riding horse he came in as just a horse and i feel it is not ok for animals seemingly healthy to be pts just because they do not fulfill a human need.
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Completely agree with your here. What a lucky horse he is to have such a caring owner.
 
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