At my wits end...story follow on.....

[ycbm]

He has several signs of ulcers. Also of kissing spines. Also of sacroiliac strain. Also of PSD. Also of spavins. And that's not the end of the list.

You will find threads on the forum describing behaviour like your horse's where the diagnosis has turned out to be all of those things.

For the sake of your horse, please change your vet to one who knows what they are doing. Your current one is letting you down, I'm afraid

 

[budatiger]

I suggest you request a full work up. I had some ongoing issues with mine, was convinced something not right since I had him. Was looked at by the Physio, couple of vets, friends, who at most could see very low level hip dipping on one side. Many months later, he's now diagnosed with bilateral PSD, bilateral hock spavins, & quadrilateral fetlock changes. Not to mention very sore back. Until the last couple of times I rode him, his behaviour wasn't bad. He was trying to tell me nicely that he was sore!

 

[catkin]

I really feel for you and your poor boy. He's really trying to tell you something isn't quite right, he's very worried about something. Even if he's not showing all the signs of ulcers there could still be something amiss (you mentioned issues when being asked to use the right hind in particular - that's a typical 'gutty' reaction because of the way the cecum lies in the abdomen.) For info my vets started with the guts problem as if there was one it needed to be sorted first, next on the list was skeletal stuff but in our case it was guts. They took bloods to rule out infections, did an exclusion diet and a trial of Equisure. For my part her management was to keep her quiet and as stress free as possible and some gentle exercise. If you do bloods include a mineral panel to see if there are any glaring deficiencies.
It's difficult at a yard that does individual turnout but from what you say he sounds as if he is lonely. Try to spend as much time as possible with him, Welshies are so intelligent they love to communicate. A small wise pony companion would be the ideal though that aint easy I know.

As far as classical dressage is concerned - have a jolly good look at his build, many Welshies (including mine) are the 'baroque horse' personified (check out the set of his forelimbs and shoulder in particular) so don't worry on that score. Good correct training will help them a lot - yours is telling you he can't for some reason not that he won't. Once he's on the road to recovery he'll need some rehab-type work - perhaps some gentle classical in-hand exercises with following up from the saddle - can your instructor help you here? Paddy's longreining suggestion is a good one - again get some lessons to help you on your way (anything you can do on top you can do on longreins if the training is right!) It would occupy his ample brain and yet be just different enough to not get the automatic 'can't' panic reaction.

 

[YorksG]

I would stop the sea weed, we had a horrendous experience with feeding it to four mares, we still don't know if it was a dodgy batch, or whether it was because they did not need what was in it, but all four became very difficult to even bring in from the field! This was short lived cos we stopped feeding immediately. I would also stop the copra, if he is a good doer then he doesn't need it. Stick to to hay and grass for at least a month and see how he goes on.

 

[DD]

Welsh cobs were originally bred to be a farmers alrounder. for him to ride to market, drive in a trap do a bit of light farmwork in harness. they wernt bred to do dressage. take the horse out hacking on a long loose rein at walk and trot, give him some freedom get rid of your instructor and change the vet and look into the good advice re veterinary issues already given in this thread.

 

[ester]

But many of them are perfectly happy to walk/trot/canter a circle. I don't think that is big ask of any horse whether you be approaching it from a traditional or classical or any other stand point and he really doesn't sound safe to be hacking, for the OP or other road users.

 

[Zipzop]

But many of them are perfectly happy to walk/trot/canter a circle. I don't think that is big ask of any horse whether you be approaching it from a traditional or classical or any other stand point and he really doesn't sound safe to be hacking, for the OP or other road users.

These are kind of my feelings too. I'm not asking for high school movements. I'm asking for reasonable walk, trot in balance. I'm nowhere near high level myself so it's not like he has a very strict classical rider who demands perfection. I'm still learning myself. I know his breed isn't bred for dressage but many do, do it quite happily. He is definitely not safe out hacking especially on a loose rein. I'm not kidding but I'd probably die! The last time I even walked him out on another route different from our one route he reared napped and spooked his way back across a cross junction, because there was a log up ahead on a track I was trying to get past. I had to get off in the end for safety's sake. I'm actually quite surprised nothing more serious happened.

 

[ester]

Yup, and I think it is right to be fair to him at the moment and to assume that he finds it physically difficult (possibly with some mental expectation of it to hurt) and that he can't do it rather than won't.

Welshies can be a bit tricky but they do usually try for you quite hard.

 

[unicornystar]

Please get a real vet, these symptoms are staring you in the face........full work up!!! Scope him, bloods, the lot.

 

[Annagain]

Welsh cobs were originally bred to be a farmers alrounder. for him to ride to market, drive in a trap do a bit of light farmwork in harness. they wernt bred to do dressage. take the horse out hacking on a long loose rein at walk and trot, give him some freedom get rid of your instructor and change the vet and look into the good advice re veterinary issues already given in this thread.

Many breeds were bred to do a completely different job from the ones the do today. I know plenty of Sec Ds who are fab dressage horses.

OP - I appreciate how frustrating this is for you but your horse is trying to tell you something. You really need to work out what that is. I'd start with scoping and then a full work up. Good luck with it.

 

[YorksG]

Please get a real vet, these symptoms are staring you in the face........full work up!!! Scope him, bloods, the lot.

The holistic vet will also be a conventionally qualified vet, they must be by law, to treat the animal. We use two practices, one a big conventional practice, where you may end up seeing the hamster specialist with your horse and another one man band who does accupuncture and chrio alongside his conventional qualification.

 

[Zipzop]

Thanks again to all who have commented.

Ok so I need to go back to the vet and ask for things to be done namely scoping for ulcers, blood tests, a full work up. Is this everything? Oh and x rays for kissing spines.

What shall I start with?

I understand the scoping. But what does the full work up entail and what will be covered/checked/tested?

What will the bloods be taken and tested for?

Should I x ray for anything else?

Will this all be covered on insurance? As I just spoke with vet and they have said if I go ahead and treat for ulcers instead of scoping, (horse very sensitive to sedation) it will cost £700 for a month.

Thanks again

 

[ester]

I would be concerned why the holistic vet didn't suggest any diagnostics though, even though they did suggest that even if you managed to alter the 'bad' bacteria that unless you alter the underlying cause it won't resolve.

 

[Annagain]

Thanks again to all who have commented.

Ok so I need to go back to the vet and ask for things to be done namely scoping for ulcers, blood tests, a full work up. Is this everything? Oh and x rays for kissing spines.

What shall I start with?

I understand the scoping. But what does the full work up entail and what will be covered/checked/tested?

What will the bloods be taken and tested for?

Should I x ray for anything else?

Will this all be covered on insurance? As I just spoke with vet and they have said if I go ahead and treat for ulcers instead of scoping, (horse very sensitive to sedation) it will cost £700 for a month.

Thanks again

Speak to your insurance company. It should be - depending on your limit and how much you've spent already.

 

[ester]

What sort of equipment does current vet have?
If they don't have a lot it would make sense to take him to one of the larger fully equipped hospitals for a 'loss of performance' work up and they will assess him and decide what to start with. Probably a scope and/or nerve blocks before you start xraying anything. They will have an established method that they use that they will be happy to go through with you.
speak to your insurance, yes you should be covered but only if this is treated as a new problem rather than one untreated for >a year.
I don't think they will pay for gastroguard (ulcer treatment) without a scope though.

 

[ester]

Also iirc there is a new test for hindgut ulcers which aren't seen on scope, I think called succeed?

there are ways of working around sensitivity to sedation, and I think given that we are talking about the rest of his life here if it enables proper diagnostics to done it is worth doing.

 

[ester]

The only other thing I would say if it is behavioural not physical is that welshies can be quite insecure and need you to take the lead/guide them. It isn't unusual for them to be spooky and/or pretend to be terrified and need you to hold their hand . I wonder if riding in a classical fashion you are being too neutral with him a lot of the time and he can't take that responsibility, then has a panic?/you get tense and it all escalates? They can be more sensitive than they appear to how you are.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Please get a real vet, these symptoms are staring you in the face........full work up!!! Scope him, bloods, the lot.

What on earth do you think a 'holistic vet' is, us?
A vet is a person qualified to treat animals, including horses, whether they call themselves, 'holistic' or not!

 

[twiggy2]

Welsh cobs were originally bred to be a farmers alrounder. for him to ride to market, drive in a trap do a bit of light farmwork in harness. they wernt bred to do dressage. take the horse out hacking on a long loose rein at walk and trot, give him some freedom get rid of your instructor and change the vet and look into the good advice re veterinary issues already given in this thread.

times have moved on a little since the dark ages and EVERY single horse is capable of doing dressage at some level (unless it has conformation or health issues) and many many many Welsh D's are doing it to a high standard as are coloured cobs-in fact they are out performing many warm bloods, D's can be more difficult because they can be more intelligent (due to being a native breed they tend to have more natural instincts) so training can take more thought from the rider and instructor. This horses problems are unlikely to be because he is a Welsh D but because he has a physical issues.

 

[twiggy2]

Thanks again to all who have commented.

Ok so I need to go back to the vet and ask for things to be done namely scoping for ulcers, blood tests, a full work up. Is this everything? Oh and x rays for kissing spines.

What shall I start with?

I understand the scoping. But what does the full work up entail and what will be covered/checked/tested?

What will the bloods be taken and tested for?

Should I x ray for anything else?

Will this all be covered on insurance? As I just spoke with vet and they have said if I go ahead and treat for ulcers instead of scoping, (horse very sensitive to sedation) it will cost £700 for a month.

Thanks again

you need to speak to your insurance company as they all differ, many of them will not pay for ulcer treatment without the ulcers being diagnosed due to the cost of treatment. Tobe honest I would question any vet who has not done/suggested diagnostic test on a horse displaying all the symptoms you describe

 

[Pigeon]

I agree you need to try scoping him. That would be the absolute first step for me.

I have met a couple of welsh Ds like this though. They never walked anywhere... Their owners liked it..... So it could just be his temperament. Can you lunge him? What happens if you let him burn off some steam before riding?

Also I would try a different trainer. Perhaps he needs someone a little more gung ho? I would personally like to see a gutsy professional try riding him. Someone who trains young dressage horses perhaps? Just to see if he's happier with a little more hand holding.

Do you feed him anything at all?

I guess it's just got to the point where something needs to change!

 

[Bigbenji]

The only other thing I would say if it is behavioural not physical is that welshies can be quite insecure and need you to take the lead/guide them. It isn't unusual for them to be spooky and/or pretend to be terrified and need you to hold their hand . I wonder if riding in a classical fashion you are being too neutral with him a lot of the time and he can't take that responsibility, then has a panic?/you get tense and it all escalates? They can be more sensitive than they appear to how you are.

This 100%!

Some are also very smart and very sharp. Combine that with a pony pee pee taking sense of humour and most built like little power packs they are far from a novice or a timid riders ride.

Of course it won't hurt to rule pain out first, except to your bank balance! But if all clear try swapping instructiors and do see if a different approach works. Good luck!

 

[EQUIDAE]

This 100%!

Some are also very smart and very sharp. Combine that with a pony pee pee taking sense of humour and most built like little power packs they are far from a novice or a timid riders ride.

Of course it won't hurt to rule pain out first, except to your bank balance! But if all clear try swapping instructiors and do see if a different approach works. Good luck!

Agreed about they can be quirky - mine went from the first pic to the second pic in the space of 2 minutes.

Please do get him scoped and xrayed - I'm highly surprised (and a bit suspicious) that your vet hasn't already done this

 

[D66]

I have sent you a pm.

 

[kez81]

Hi all,

I can't thank you all enough for your replies and reading my massive long post!
Here goes to answer all your questions;
He is fine in the field and with other horses. He is currently living in a paddock on his own with horses in neighbouring fields. I do feel he is lonely but it is the way this yard operates, he has lived there for a year. He trots and canters fine in the field.
It is not possible to just turn him away due to his weight issues he will get over weight very quickly and then I will have the dreaded other issues which go with that to worry about.
He has not had X-rays, thermal imaging, or scoped for ulcers. Both vets, holistic and normal and my instructor do not think it necessary as apparently he does not show correct symptoms. His weight is good, his faeces are fine, he seems happy and jolly in himself. He eats a mostly hay/grass diet and they have all said he doesn't show any signs for KS.
I would not have him pts as I feel he didn't come into this world to be a riding horse he came in as just a horse and i feel it is not ok for animals seemingly healthy to be pts just because they do not fulfill a human need.
He doesn't relax at all when ridden either in the school or out hacking.
I don't worry when riding him I am just frustrated by the whole lack of progress thing.
I understand he isn't a classical orientated breed but I'm not asking him to do anything other than walk and trot with improved posture, it's not like we are trying to do high school movements.
He likes the interaction of being ridden whether he likes the content of what we do I can't really tell amongst his wild behaviours!
If I ride him with the intention of doing what he finds easiest or likes the best he is no more manageable than when we are doing the schooling. He becomes strong, spooky, nappy and generally we don't have a good time. I feel like my arms are being pulled out the entire time.
His current diet is hay, grass, a mug full of copra and some seaweed.
We have not tried a hindgut balancer as yet.
Tried many calmers the only one which helped was hydrobase from trinity consultants.
For those who say give him some time off, he has just come back into work from having nine months off.
He is spooky and rushy in hand sometimes and especially if I'm not with him. I had someone turning him out for me but he terrified her so much and ended up galloping off with sthe lead rope still attached that I now have to handle him myself.
If I lunge him he goes batshit crazy and gallops round bucking.
Poles seem to stress him out as I guess he has to stretch and change his body to go over them.
He will trot up in hand ok and canter and trot round the field fine.

Sorry for the short sentences just wanted to answer all questions.

Thanks again for all the replies!

Sorry but sack your vet. All the behaviour and ridden issues you describe absolutely scream pain to me and are classic symptoms of hind gut ulcers if not kissing spines. If I were you I would get a new vet to do a proper gut and lameness work up and contact a feed specialist to advise you of supplements to help him digest his feed properly and to relax.
His breed has nothing to do with his ability to do classical dressage, all horses can do it if it is taught properly and there are a few D's currently competing at Prix St Georges.

 

[palo1]

I think you need to question how far you have got with your current approach: things are not improving so perhaps try a different vet and perhaps different training regime.

I also agree that seaweed could be causing problems as could other dietary things. Magnesium (and the right type and quantity) can be very helpful for horses that are reactive, spooky etc. Or you may not need magnesium! The only way to know exactly what you need to feed is to have a decent forage analysis and then make sure you give the horse a balancer that is balanced to his actual diet: commercial balancers could make things worse. In my experience using a bespoke balancer does not have to be any more expensive than an off the shelf one and it could make a huge difference. He may need a better pro-biotic to help him too.

Ulcers and back pain should also be investigated as should your saddle, bridle etc. Treeless saddles can cause problems and discomfort as much as treed saddles as can bitless bridles. You may also need to question your horse's feet/trimming regime. I would perhaps try discussing priorities with your existing vet or find another one who can work with you and can provide some diagnostic work. There is not much point trying all these different things without some proper professional help and it is probably cheaper and quicker to work through a list of priorities than trying a bit of this or a bit of that if you know what I mean! Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh. I think you would find it very reassuring and helpful to find a vet that can work through a proper plan with you. I have had to do this in the past and it ends up being quicker and cheaper to solve the horse's issues this way. For me, my horse was really struggling with both his saddle and his diet. I hope you find a way forward with this as it sounds like you are very committed to your horse's best interests.

 

[PollyP99]

Agree with all the comments regarding what a d can do, there are plenty turning out great dressage scores. Mine is quirky and non typical of a d I that she's a lazy toad with a good spook In Her for fun, she can however turn it on when she's in The mood for dressage.

So what you have on your hands seems to be a very unhappy horse under saddle and I agree with the need for the vet to step up and provide proper investigation.

I have no experience of ulcer treatment and see no one else has raised surprise over what the vet said about treatment, £700 per month surely that can't be right??

 

[paddy555]

Agree with all the comments regarding what a d can do, there are plenty turning out great dressage scores. Mine is quirky and non typical of a d I that she's a lazy toad with a good spook In Her for fun, she can however turn it on when she's in The mood for dressage.

when mine was demonstrated before I bought him he did it all beautifully. The rider was mega mega experienced and produced a good performance for a lot of hard work on her part.

In reality he would have done the same for me only if I had constantly forced and made him but in reality he hated it. Lightness was not a word he wanted anything to do with. He would never have been in the mood for dressage, for a good spook and being a lazy toad yes he was certainly in the mood for those. I can identify with all the symptoms OP listed. I agree that they could also be symptoms of KS, ulcers, SI and every disease known to the equine world.

I loved my sec D but he was certainly of the worst kind of welshie and I would never have another. He had gone to a showing home before he came to me. They had sent him back, he had wrecked the place, wrecked the horsebox and terrified the grooms. He settled a lot better in my place but he was always a sec D.
One thing that made his life a lot better was to give him some company. He had been born and lived on a mountain until he was 2 and was then brought into the sales and sold. He obviously hated leaving his mountain lifestyle.
In his first home he had a small pony. They were pair bonded and he obeyed the pony completely. When he came to me I gave him our donkey, I didn't have a pony. He pair bonded immediately and once he got the donkey he behaved a lot better and was far more content. I retired him, or more probably simply gave up in frustration as I was getting nowhere in his mid teens. I just turned him out, hay in the winter and he loved it. I worried about him getting fat which he certainly did but thought he could have a nice lifestyle until he was PTS with laminitis. That was when he was around 14. I finally had him PTS when he was 28 of something completely unrelated to laminitis/EMS. Just leaving him out to get fat, however much it horrifies people, worked perfectly. It cost me very little, he was happy and I learned from the experience and moved onto a more suitable horse. Living with the worst of sec D's was like living with no other breed of horse.

The other thing that could affect yours is grass. In your position and before doing lots of expensive tests which may be a bit like a needle in a haystack I would look at the effect of grass on him. It certainly affected mine and made him far more awkward.
Over the past few days our grass has gone haywire and it has affected 2 of our riding horses. Both have shown the same symptoms spooky, difficult and awkward. Don't really want to do what they are asked without a reasonable amount of force yet last week both were moving, working and co-operating on voice commands and the lightest aids possible as usual.
I reduced the grass on one and he is now just about back to normal. It is amazing how all the symptoms described which could indicate ulcers or anything else reduce considerably just by reducing grass when it is at it's worst. I used to think grass sensitivity would be indicated by footy barefoot horses but for ours it is not, they are still stomping over tracks it is just their mind and bellies which are reacting.
I mistook this a couple of years ago for ulcers. I asked the vet to scope (whilst he was in horse hospital) pointed out money was no problem and I really wanted it but they were very reluctant to do so even though he was on the premises and they had everything to hand. They were pretty sure he didn't have ulcers. I didn't agree but I didn't overide them. They turned out to be correct so not all vets are wrong and need sacking.

 

[BentleyBelly]

When was the last time he had his teeth checked?

 

[Zipzop]

When was the last time he had his teeth checked?

He had his teeth done a few months ago