At my wits end with mud fever

[teddy_]

I just really don’t know what to do!

My horse has had three courses of Trimediazine and 70ml twice daily of Karidox for seven days in attempt to rid her of this mud fever induced infected pastern.

I have tried everything. About six different barrier creams / treatment creams. Flamazine. Washing and drying. Not washing and brushing off the mud when it’s dry.

After each course of antibiotics, the leg has healed and scabs have gone. So, I turn her out again using a barrier cream. I have also tried mud fever boots, but they were useless and mud gathered underneath.

She has a swollen, infected leg again, after completing the Karidox.

In my mind, confining a three year old to her stable is simply not ethical or sustainable. During the last course of sachet antibiotics, I kept her in and after a week she kicked me, quite badly (I genuinely thought she’d broken my leg and I was completely winded from the pain). I was hand grazing her and she just exploded from pent up energy after something spooked her - she wasn’t trying to kick me and it was totally my fault for ending up behind her - she would never intentionally do something nasty. She is an otherwise very healthy and switched on warmblood.

So what can I do? I don’t seem to be able to treat the ailment using every conventional method available to me, and the horse doesn’t cope with being in apart from exercise (bearing in mind she’s an unbroken three year old so “exercise” is minimal - i.e. hand walking and light in-hand work in the arena (which is also completely waterlogged)).

Do I just need to move the horse that offers other turnout solutions in the winter? I.e. sand paddocks or similar.

Sorry for the rant but I feel like I’m going bonkers now !

 

[Pinkvboots]

It can often be linked to them lacking something so I would feed a full spec vitamin and mineral supplement if you don't already and buy something to boost the immune system.

Arabi got really bad mud fever after 2 bouts of colic so I think he was a bit run down and lacking something, aloe vera is good for this or global herbs restore I have used both in the past for years.

Sometimes the antibiotics can affect horses and unbalance the gut afterwards so it's a bit of a vicious circle.

I also wouldn't keep washing it the water weakens the skin keep it as dry as you can, it also weakens the scab that forms and let's in bacteria, you shouldn't ever remove the scabs just leave them keep them dry and they will come off when the skin is ready.

 

[ponyparty]

In your situation I'd be looking at moving. Would also look at nutrition as a preventative/providing the body with what it needs to be healthy from the inside. Is she on a balancer, and if so which one?
My mare came to me with mud fever and I'm so worried she's going to get it again. She's out 24/7, which is the lifestyle I want for her, and she's very happy and settled, but I can't help but be worried about what I'll do if she gets it again. I'm actually going to bring her in tomorrow morning and wash her legs, let them dry in a makeshift stable (field shelter with gate), and go back at lunchtime to slather with barrier cream and turn out again. If the others she's out with go over the brow of the hill, she won't be able to see any other horses, and I'm just not sure whether she will turn herself inside out as a result, or if she'll be ok.
The barrier powder I have previously used doesn't seem to be doing anything, it's just so wet in our fields she's on Forageplus hoof & skin balancer, but she's still on the summer one as I had lots left, so it doesn't have vit E in it... I'm worrying/wondering whether I need to add in vit E, or if I should stop panicking for no good reason (yet!) and wait until she's eaten all the summer one, and buy the winter one (which has vit E added already!).

 

[humblepie]

Have you tried Keratex powder. Years ago I had a chestnut mare with white socks and I found this really good. It is a powder so not a greasy cream so much nicer to apply.

 

[teddy_]

It can often be linked to them lacking something so I would feed a full spec vitamin and mineral supplement if you don't already and buy something to boost the immune system.

Arabi got really bad mud fever after 2 bouts of colic so I think he was a bit run down and lacking something, aloe vera is good for this or global herbs restore I have used both in the past for years.

Sometimes the antibiotics can affect horses and unbalance the gut afterwards so it's a bit of a vicious circle.

I also wouldn't keep washing it the water weakens the skin keep it as dry as you can, it also weakens the scab that forms and let's in bacteria, you shouldn't ever remove the scabs just leave them keep them dry and they will come off when the skin is ready.

Thank you .

I did buy a broad spectrum vitamin and mineral supplement for her last week, so hopefully that’ll start to kick in soon.

I’ll refrain from washing at all in that case and see how that works this time around . I’m just concerned that with the recurring swelling that she’s going to end up with cellulitis in that leg. I’m just generally consumed with worry about it!

 

[teddy_]

In your situation I'd be looking at moving. Would also look at nutrition as a preventative/providing the body with what it needs to be healthy from the inside. Is she on a balancer, and if so which one?
My mare came to me with mud fever and I'm so worried she's going to get it again. She's out 24/7, which is the lifestyle I want for her, and she's very happy and settled, but I can't help but be worried about what I'll do if she gets it again. I'm actually going to bring her in tomorrow morning and wash her legs, let them dry in a makeshift stable (field shelter with gate), and go back at lunchtime to slather with barrier cream and turn out again. If the others she's out with go over the brow of the hill, she won't be able to see any other horses, and I'm just not sure whether she will turn herself inside out as a result, or if she'll be ok.
The barrier powder I have previously used doesn't seem to be doing anything, it's just so wet in our fields she's on Forageplus hoof & skin balancer, but she's still on the summer one as I had lots left, so it doesn't have vit E in it... I'm worrying/wondering whether I need to add in vit E, or if I should stop panicking for no good reason (yet!) and wait until she's eaten all the summer one, and buy the winter one (which has vit E added already!).

I was planning on having her backed in the New Year, but I might send her away sooner, so she gets off the ground that's so clearly agitating her. However, I still need to get on top of the current infection before she goes anywhere.

Her diet is good, she has access to ad-lib forage (lovely haylage), we have loads of grass and she gets high quality hard feed (Saracen) to which I have recently added a broad spectrum vitamin and mineral supplement.

I feel your pain, it is all relentless.

 

[teddy_]

Have you tried Keratex powder. Years ago I had a chestnut mare with white socks and I found this really good. It is a powder so not a greasy cream so much nicer to apply.

Willing to try anything at this stage, so will give it a go!

 

[Pinkvboots]

Thank you .

I did buy a broad spectrum vitamin and mineral supplement for her last week, so hopefully that’ll start to kick in soon.

I’ll refrain from washing at all in that case and see how that works this time around . I’m just concerned that with the recurring swelling that she’s going to end up with cellulitis in that leg. I’m just generally consumed with worry about it!

It might take a while to kick in but what I did was brought mine in every night to let it all dry of and I literally wiped mud off with handfuls of bedding, then the heels were cleaned off with baby wipes then dried with a towel, I then covered the area with the Lincoln mud fever powder then put more on in the morning before going out.

It did shrink down to 2 very small scabs on each heel and it never got infected then eventually it just went as it got drier.

 

[vhf]

I've found feeding for skin (e.g. linseed) with top level supplements keep it at bay (as in, what I'd feed a competition horse in hard work level of vits and mins, pro/prebiotic) once you've got rid. Annoyingly, I've done it for so long that with the last horse, I forgot and took him off them for a month in summer... so I've had to clear it off all over again.

 

[teddy_]

I've found feeding for skin (e.g. linseed) with top level supplements keep it at bay (as in, what I'd feed a competition horse in hard work level of vits and mins, pro/prebiotic) once you've got rid. Annoyingly, I've done it for so long that with the last horse, I forgot and took him off them for a month in summer... so I've had to clear it off all over again.

Thank you - in your experience, which is the highest quality general health supplement?

 

[ponyparty]

The suggestion of Keratex powder may well work for you... I used to wash my old boy's legs once per week or fortnight, let legs dry completely, apply keratex (or lincoln) mud barrier powder, and then leave until the next week. He was stabled for a few hours daily though, which allowed his legs time to dry off. That seemed to keep it at bay.

I'm going to patch test Nettex muddy marvel cream tonight and hopefully can apply that tomorrow after a leg wash/dry, if she has no reaction to it. I couldn't tell yesterday if what I was feeling/seeing on her heels was scabs or bits of mud, I really need to wash them to know what I'm dealing with

 

[vhf]

Thank you - in your experience, which is the highest quality general health supplement?

There's a few I've used with success but do your homework, I am convinced different horses respond differently with different products (and why wouldn't they?)
Top Spec Comprehensive was the first, then I discovered Progressive Earth range (I can't remember which was the 'strongest' formulation without looking) or Equimins Advance. I am sure there are other options too, some of which might work out better if you have time to do all the analysis. I try and avoid ones with a lot of filler unless it's reflected in the price/product (e.g. I had one who did best on Top Spec Balancer rather than a powdered/pelleted supplement because she needed calories etc. but was fussy).

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I would feed marigold and cleavers also, it's to help with lymphatic drainage, which isn't your issue I realise, but should it continue to be infected etc it may help stave off lymphangitis or similar. Milk thistle is also a good one and is cheaply available online, it's used for general immuno support by supporting the liver

 

[expanding_horizon]

One of forage plus / progressive earth / equimins advanced complete balancers. A lot of the others wont have high enough zinc and copper to help. Micronised linseed is also great for skin!

One option is to use silver whinny socks to break the cycle.

I also like gold label leg guard cream for horses too sensitive for pig oil.

 

[Hackback]

I am in exactly the same position with my 3 year old. He has had multiple courses of antibiotics and latterly a course of steroids which was a last resort due to the increased risk of lami. He's had goodness knows how many creams, we've even tried purple spray. He's had skin scrapings and the bug has been identified as streptococcus so it's been targeted with the appropriate antibiotic but it never completely clears up - although the steroids did make a difference
- and he has been in a lot of pain, to the point where if he's stabled for any length of time his worst affected leg becomes too painful to move and eventually he plucks up courage to charge out of the stable on 3 legs. Once he starts moving the pain eases off but for that reason I don't want to keep him stabled.

The vet initially suspected photosensitivity (just his 3 white legs are affected) possibly due to a liver problem, but his bloods were fine. I tried turning out at night and in during the day but it didn't seem to make a difference, plus one night the horses broke through the fencing and were running loose up and down the drive all night. He's had the dectomax injections to rule out a mite problem.

He finished his last course of antibiotics and steroids about a week ago and the scabs are creeping back. I'm currently trialling old fashioned sulphur cream, will try anything. I just don't know where to go from here.

I found one of the dogs chewing a baby cap the other day so (clutching at straws) I wondered if teething could be making him a bit run down like a human baby and possibly affect his immune system. I'm going to try a liver tonic that the vet suggested to see if we can boost it up a bit.

Best of luck with yours, I hope we both find a solution.

Oh and we don't have any mud to speak of and this has been going on since summer. The term 'mud fever' is a misnomer, the bug could come from anywhere. And could be one (or more) of a huge number of different bugs which will respond differently to treatment, so there is no one size fits all solution.

 

[teddy_]

I am in exactly the same position with my 3 year old. He has had multiple courses of antibiotics and latterly a course of steroids which was a last resort due to the increased risk of lami. He's had goodness knows how many creams, we've even tried purple spray. He's had skin scrapings and the bug has been identified as streptococcus so it's been targeted with the appropriate antibiotic but it never completely clears up - although the steroids did make a difference
- and he has been in a lot of pain, to the point where if he's stabled for any length of time his worst affected leg becomes too painful to move and eventually he plucks up courage to charge out of the stable on 3 legs. Once he starts moving the pain eases off but for that reason I don't want to keep him stabled.

The vet initially suspected photosensitivity (just his 3 white legs are affected) possibly due to a liver problem, but his bloods were fine. I tried turning out at night and in during the day but it didn't seem to make a difference, plus one night the horses broke through the fencing and were running loose up and down the drive all night. He's had the dectomax injections to rule out a mite problem.

He finished his last course of antibiotics and steroids about a week ago and the scabs are creeping back. I'm currently trialling old fashioned sulphur cream, will try anything. I just don't know where to go from here.

I found one of the dogs chewing a baby cap the other day so (clutching at straws) I wondered if teething could be making him a bit run down like a human baby and possibly affect his immune system. I'm going to try a liver tonic that the vet suggested to see if we can boost it up a bit.

Best of luck with yours, I hope we both find a solution.

Oh and we don't have any mud to speak of and this has been going on since summer. The term 'mud fever' is a misnomer, the bug could come from anywhere. And could be one (or more) of a huge number of different bugs which will respond differently to treatment, so there is no one size fits all solution.

Gosh, that does all sound very familiar. It is soul destroying, isn't it?

Skin scrapings were the next thing my vet suggested, so I think I'll go ahead with that and see if that sheds any light, like it did with yours.

Completely agree re the word 'mud' being misleading - my mares also started when it was bone dry at the end of August!

 

[Carrottom]

I have found the barrier powder effective for horses stabled overnight so it can be applied to dry skin in the morning before turnout. I never wash the mud off, just let it dry overnight. After a few days of liberal application the mud seems to brush off more easily

 

[expanding_horizon]

Silver Whinnys work well for cases that wont clear up. Or for any lower leg wound that is tricky to heal that is in the mud zone.

Buy Now Silver Whinnys - Sox For Horses!

If search this forum are lots of recommendations for Silver Whinnys for tricky mud fever / pastern dermatitis.

I used two pairs (wash one, use one), spiral masking tape to support staying up in field and found them brilliant. Use plastic sandwich bag over foot to put on.

I keep two pairs in my first aid kit just in case. Have had 4 cases (different situations, different horses) where they have worked wonders. One was a neoprene allergy, one a boot heel rub that got infected, and one pastern dermatitis in summer, and one standard mudfever.

 

[teddy_]

Silver Whinnys work well for cases that wont clear up. Or for any lower leg wound that is tricky to heal that is in the mud zone.

Buy Now Silver Whinnys - Sox For Horses!

If search this forum are lots of recommendations for Silver Whinnys for tricky mud fever / pastern dermatitis.

I used two pairs (wash one, use one), spiral masking tape to support staying up in field and found them brilliant. Use plastic sandwich bag over foot to put on.

I keep two pairs in my first aid kit just in case. Have had 4 cases (different situations, different horses) where they have worked wonders. One was a neoprene allergy, one a boot heel rub that got infected, and one pastern dermatitis in summer, and one standard mudfever.

Thank you - can Silver Whinnys be used for turnout when it's super wet and muddy?

 

[expanding_horizon]

Thank you - can Silver Whinnys be used for turnout when it's super wet and muddy?

I have used them in mud. You put on dry, and leave on 24 hours, and change. They seem to keep skin underneath clean and pretty dry even if outside muddy.

I havent used them in absolute quagmire, but in standard winter mud.

They are a faff to change every 24 hours, I washed mine in sink at home and dried out, to keep swapping. With electric tape added, they are safe IME to turn out in, and they have broken the cycle for me several times when nothing else had.

My vet had heard of them, and heard good things about them, so you could ask your vet too.

 

[Hackback]

They sound really good. My issue is that the scabs are so sore he can't bear anything touching them. I tried UV protection boots in summer but the minute they touched a scab he went ballistic. It's a careful job to get his cream on. I'm think once the socks were in place they might be ok but do you think I'd struggle to get them on?

 

[expanding_horizon]

They sound really good. My issue is that the scabs are so sore he can't bear anything touching them. I tried UV protection boots in summer but the minute they touched a scab he went ballistic. It's a careful job to get his cream on. I'm think once the socks were in place they might be ok but do you think I'd struggle to get them on?

I guess it depends how sore / how stoic. I found them quite a fiddle to get over the hoof, you put a sandwich bag on hoof as lubrication / protection and pull sock on over hoof. Has to be quite tight to get over hoof as hoof wider then most of the leg. Once it is round the pastern, is fairly easy to pull up. If horse is sensible they would be gentle to pull up. But if they were difficult to handle lower leg / hoof as anticipating pain could be quite hard. You might need some sedalin / injected sedative from vet. All the horses I have used Silver Whinny socks on were over ten, and solid non kickers. I think there are good instructions on website / how to put on guide which might help decide if feasible.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Try Milk Thistle. Worked for mine.

 

[meleeka]

I’d get the current infection cleared and the try her somewhere else. A few years ago a friends pony came to stay at mine for a few months. He’d previously had mud fever every winter. He ended up churning my small field up so much he was past fetlock deep in mud, most of the time. His legs were fine though. Eventually he went back to his old field, which had been rested and within two days he had mud fever again. I can only assume that my fields don’t have the bacteria in, but hers did. None of mine have ever had it either.

 

[paddy555]

below is a reply I put on another thread a while ago about a similar mud fever (or not) query. I got rid of mine. The bit I found important was the "big molecules" bit below. I used silver whinneys and I worked on the basis it may take a year for the "big molecules"

I think putting SOX on open sores may cause problems. I waited till mine were dry. You can use SOX in mud. They apparently dry very well in a drier. (I don't have one)
You do need 2 pairs especially in this weather. If a horse needs to move to avoid stocking up as Hardback said then a yard, school, lunge ring or anything similar would help rather than mud.

This is what I wrote.

"about this time last year I was struggling and nothing I applied for mud fever helped. Eventually got vet out who took one look and said LV. Not surprised as I had worked it out by then. Our practice make up their own cream. Applied this for 2 months and sorted. What I learnt was don't pick the scabs off, just keep applying the cream and deal with sunlight. It was winter so that was OK but I got a pair of sox for horses in case we had snow and I used them this summer as a precaution. If you search on here there is lots about it.

I used hibiscrub once, the legs came up like balloons, my horse was 4 and not cushings. I didn't box rest but kept him out of sunlight but this was Dec. so not really a problem. If you have to box rest to avoid light then you can use sox for horses.

there were lots of posts on here about this and someone wrote to Dr Knottenbelt. I copied his reply for future reference and it is in bold below.
This condition is quite unique in that it is due to a rather unusual immune response we think to pollen and other proteins from yellow flowered plants last summer. A few horses have a 'reaction' between the plant proteins and their own antibodies and these complexes are deposited in the outer layers (not usually the deeper ones) of the skin. Where they form in white skinned areas they are photoactivatable and so when they are exposed to sunlight they react and cause inflammation. This will continue while those complexes remain and because they are big molecules they have to grow / wear out!! That can take months and any flares that occur simply turn the revert clock backwards!!! The downside is that you have to be very careful therefore to avoid flares / management break downs. The upside of putting effort in now is that it seldom if ever recurs once its gone.

It's not immune boosting you need it's immune suppression if you need anything since it is a result of an abnormal antibody response!"


ETA
whilst the big molecules sound like something out of a fairy tale as the author was Dr K I think we can take them seriously.

 

[SEL]

I'm pretty sure there was a bacteria in one of my old livery yards because we all had tonnes of skin problems. Global Herbs mud-x helped quite a few and I had mine on a progressive earth balancer (they advised).

On that mix I had less problems than most of the liveries and one saw her mare's mud fever vanish on the global Herbs supplement.

Soul destroying when you've got to keep them in.

 

[Hackback]

I guess it depends how sore / how stoic. I found them quite a fiddle to get over the hoof, you put a sandwich bag on hoof as lubrication / protection and pull sock on over hoof. Has to be quite tight to get over hoof as hoof wider then most of the leg. Once it is round the pastern, is fairly easy to pull up. If horse is sensible they would be gentle to pull up. But if they were difficult to handle lower leg / hoof as anticipating pain could be quite hard. You might need some sedalin / injected sedative from vet. All the horses I have used Silver Whinny socks on were over ten, and solid non kickers. I think there are good instructions on website / how to put on guide which might help decide if feasible.

Sounds like something to use after the scabs are under control then. Mine kicks just having his cream on. He tries not to but it hurts him. Once I start very gently massaging it in he freezes with the leg snatched up and lets me do it so I think it must be soothing, just painful to start with. Feel so sorry for him.

 

[SilverLinings]

If the 'mud fever' started in dry weather in August then it sounds like the problem is more likely to be photosensitivity (or possibly a reaction to an allergen) than mud fever. Although Dermatophilus congolensis (the mud fever bacteria) can survive in dry soil for sometime it isn't active until the ground becomes wet again. Photosensitivity can present very much like mud fever and is often initially misdiagnosed as such.

Testing for D. Congolensis is easy so the vet could skin scrape to rule it out, but as the hx includes symptoms during dry weather I would be talking to them about treating it as photosensitivity and seeing if that works. This unfortunately means that the horse is likely to need to be kept in not just until the symptoms have stopped, but until the skin has completely healed.

I am not diagnosing anything over the internet, but from the information you have given I think I would be looking into the likelihood of differential diagnosis rather than just treating it as mud fever.

Whether it is mud fever or not, take care when washing the horse's legs not to use pressured water (e.g. a hose turned on full) or rough scrubbing (e.g. using a water or dandy brush) as that can cause micro damage to the skin which will allow bacteria a way in. D. Congolensis only needs tiny skin abrasions to make it's way in and cause mud fever.

I have seen a horse with horrendous legs due to photosensitivity (which was initially treated as mud fever but kept coming back, well into summer), so it can certainly cause a severe problem (the horse made a full recovery when it was correctly diagnosed and treated). I hope that you manage to get to the bottom of it and the horse is free of symptoms soon.

 

[Hackback]

below is a reply I put on another thread a while ago about a similar mud fever (or not) query. I got rid of mine. The bit I found important was the "big molecules" bit below. I used silver whinneys and I worked on the basis it may take a year for the "big molecules"

I think putting SOX on open sores may cause problems. I waited till mine were dry. You can use SOX in mud. They apparently dry very well in a drier. (I don't have one)
You do need 2 pairs especially in this weather. If a horse needs to move to avoid stocking up as Hardback said then a yard, school, lunge ring or anything similar would help rather than mud.

This is what I wrote.

"about this time last year I was struggling and nothing I applied for mud fever helped. Eventually got vet out who took one look and said LV. Not surprised as I had worked it out by then. Our practice make up their own cream. Applied this for 2 months and sorted. What I learnt was don't pick the scabs off, just keep applying the cream and deal with sunlight. It was winter so that was OK but I got a pair of sox for horses in case we had snow and I used them this summer as a precaution. If you search on here there is lots about it.

I used hibiscrub once, the legs came up like balloons, my horse was 4 and not cushings. I didn't box rest but kept him out of sunlight but this was Dec. so not really a problem. If you have to box rest to avoid light then you can use sox for horses.

there were lots of posts on here about this and someone wrote to Dr Knottenbelt. I copied his reply for future reference and it is in bold below.
This condition is quite unique in that it is due to a rather unusual immune response we think to pollen and other proteins from yellow flowered plants last summer. A few horses have a 'reaction' between the plant proteins and their own antibodies and these complexes are deposited in the outer layers (not usually the deeper ones) of the skin. Where they form in white skinned areas they are photoactivatable and so when they are exposed to sunlight they react and cause inflammation. This will continue while those complexes remain and because they are big molecules they have to grow / wear out!! That can take months and any flares that occur simply turn the revert clock backwards!!! The downside is that you have to be very careful therefore to avoid flares / management break downs. The upside of putting effort in now is that it seldom if ever recurs once its gone.

It's not immune boosting you need it's immune suppression if you need anything since it is a result of an abnormal antibody response!"


ETA
whilst the big molecules sound like something out of a fairy tale as the author was Dr K I think we can take them seriously.

This is really interesting, thank you.

 

[TPO]

Thank you - can Silver Whinnys be used for turnout when it's super wet and muddy?

They recommend using Woof Wear Mud Socks/boots over the top of the whinneys

Along with a high spec supp (progressive earth Pro Balance + would be my go to) try some oily herbs.

I feed a mix of oregano, thyme and rosemary as the base then mix through others depending on needs. I added Milk Thistle when I had an ill horse and added various respiratory herbs.

I had a chestnut Arab mare with a big white blaze and socks. She used to get awful MF and was photosensitive. Everything was tested and there was no liver damage etc.

I used FAL silver stable wraps and they made a big difference. I'd only wash legs once a week with warm water and THOROUGHLY dryeith blue paper. That made it easy to see that the legs were dry.

I can't remember exactly what I used for her but I had powders and creams. I feel like I tried everything too.

When she came in at night I'd scrape off the worst of the mud and leave her legs to dry in the straw while she had her dinner. I'd brush off the dry bits and then put the boots on.

In the morning I'd brush all the mud off then put on barrier cream. I know I used nappy cream but can't remember what other horse potions I tried.

I did manage to break the MF cycle with her and once I was on top of it, it was never an issue again.

My current horse has a touch of MF for the first time in my care. He arrived with it as a neglected and malnourished 2yr old and is now 11. He's been really ill this year so I'm assuming it linked to his battered immune system. I've been highly recommended Lincolns magic mud kure cream. Ebay was the cheapest place I found it. You've probably tried it already.

Good luck