At my wits end with my pony. WWYD?

[jaffa2311]

Owned pony since a weaned foal.
She’s had life of luxury for this whole time , with 24/7 turnout and access to a stable. A lovely stable group of 3 in a well fenced field.

She was shown at big shows as a youngster ie Royal welsh etc. Even inhand at 2/3, she had a slightly low head carriage.

She was professionally backed by an excellent, well known person aged 4. No issues at all.

She came home and I boxed her for lessons with a brilliant instructor for 2 years. We did an intro dressage test and some small ridden shows. She always had a low head carriage then but not horrendous. I was always reassured it was because she was young and unbalanced and would come with time and schooling.

She went to a professional producer for showing to have her first novice season aged 6. Novice season, so snaffle mouth. She did reasonably well, didn’t do loads of shows. Went sweetly in the snaffle but again a bit of a tendency to go head down or overbend which ruins the overall picture and stopped there being many red rosettes but always top of the line.

Next season was an open season so ideally needed a Pelham or double. This season was turbulent with riders, through no fault of her own. Anyway, long story short she went like crap.
The previous low head carriage/ on the forehand/ overbending is 100x worse. I cannot find a bit to help lift her (I am aware it’s not the answer).

I brought her home and took her back to a a snaffle bit and she was better again (but still a bit low). We did an affiliated dressage final and the judge did not like her way of going, despite doing an accurate, obedient test our scores were crap due to straightness and on the forehand.

Sorry I realise I’ve left out that she has seen all kinds of back people. Mctimoney, physio, sports massage, magical chiro vet man etc. She has a decent fitted saddle (Black Country).

She tried a few more open shows with a new pro rider, in various bits and was just getting worse and worse. Very very very on the forehand, running on extremely strong, changing legs in canter and going on the wrong leg and just not seeming settled or happy in the ring (hello red flags).

I brought her back home and got the vet out. Lameness exam done and deemed sound with a tight back. No further referrals required except physio.

3 x physio H wave sessions under sedation.

Turned away for a year at grass

Back to work after 14 months off and she is completely unchanged. Same old same old, head down and on the forehand, more on one rein. She is never nasty and it breaks my heart.

I’ve tried 2 x bute a day to see if it masks any pain and no difference.
I’ve tried a back on track rug.
I’ve tried a PSSM diet
I’ve tried bute
I’ve tried all brands of ‘back people’
I’ve gotten out the vet
I’ve tried many bits with the pony happy in a universal NS.
I’ve tried turning away for a year
I’ve tried stabling
I’ve tried professional riders

I am at my wits end. Do I just give up on her ridden career? What else can I do to save it? She’s happy as Larry living life in the field.

The vet did not want to refer in as was apparently fully sound, I just don’t know how to progress with further investigation.

 

[pistolpete]

If you’re happy she’s comfortable can’t she just enjoy hacking or does she have to be a show pony? Seems you’ve tried most things.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

You need a lack of performance work up most big practices will do them, tell your vet don't ask its your horse and you want a referal end of.

My friend had similar with an Arab everytime she asked for canter he would throw his head around, which was not like him been shown all his life at county level with no issues, he went to Newmarket for a work up although he was sound they found diastamas in his mouth lots of food stuck in his teeth, had some treatment after a rest to let it heal he was absolutely fine.

Just because a horse is sound doesn't mean nothing is wrong a vet should know that.

Where are you based?

 

[jaffa2311]

Based South UK.

She’s fully insured so I was really keen to send her off and find a problem. My vet said she can’t refer a horse without even a region to investigate.
I think the back tightness must be secondary to something further though. I suppose I just keep pushing but the reason I posted this is that I just feel mentally drained from trying everything, is it even worth it.
She’s 8 now.
Not the best hacking pony as she’s pretty spooky and dramatic with it. She will hack though, but the other thing is my yard is on windy narrow lanes that are extremely busy with no off road hacking to reach. Just loops of crap lanes. It is my idea of hell going out on them, on any horse!

The yard is so perfect for them having all the turnout they desire and no silly rules, that I don’t feel I could leave to seek out better hacking.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

Is her eyesight and hearing normal? Also, surely tightness through the back combined with a deteriorating way of going counts as cause to investigate further! Did the vet do any x-rays, etc?

 

[DabDab]

Have you tried bitless as a diagnostic exercise?

The other thing I would try in your shoes is some of the postural rehabilitation type work that there is good information about for these days. It sounds like she has never really carried herself particularly well so a posture-first approach might just mean that she can start developing the muscle in the right places to hold herself better, which if successful should also start to relieve the tension in her back.

 

[Rowreach]

Any vet should be willing to refer if, after all you have done, there is still a performance issue. Other than that, you are in an ideal area to self refer to any number of excellent vet hospitals and just tell them what you want done (probably a good idea to warn the insurance company first).

Tbh I wouldn't be messing about with any other home trials of bitless or practitioners, you've done all that, and your choices are leave her as a field ornament or go for a full workup with a vet who actually listens to you.

 

[Glitter's fun]

Working better on one rein than the other & changing lead? I'd get a second opinion from a different vet. Don't just give up on her ridden career until you have a definite reason. This is what insurance is for.
Maybe she is unbalanced with bad habits but you have to fully investigate and hopefully eliminate, physical issues first, otherwise trying different tack, different shoes, or different ways of teaching her to move are all like spear-fishing blindfolded!
Edited to add - Do you have videos of her working?

 

[Boulty]

I’d seek a second opinion, preferably from a decent referral hospital or similar that can do a full poor performance workup for you. I’d want to know that back & neck is ok before proceeding further (if generally stressy & has been moved around to different producers etc I’d also way to discuss possibly of ulcers tbh)

If you do that & either get a clean bill of health or find an issue & treat it I think you probably need to go right back to the very basics with her, starting on the ground ideally and teach her how to carry herself properly.

Reading between the lines sounds like at some point one of her riders (not accusing yourself, my suspicion falls probably on one of the show producers rushing things to get her looking “pretty” quicker) started caring more about where her head is than what the rest of her body is doing and has pulled in from the front a horse who already had a slight tendency to go on the forehand which has led to her getting heavier and heavier in the hand and more and more on the forehand and fighting the rider more & more.

Not sure how close you are to Dan Wain but he does a lot of postural rehab type stuff and is probably the sort of person you could aim to find to help re-educate her. (Definitely other people out there who do the same sort of work)

 

[shortstuff99]

There is lots of info in your post about shows and bits, but what actual schooling has she done? How many of these pros have schooled her to be off the forehand? Horses like being on the forehand it is easier for them.

What is her conformation like? Is she built downhill?

 

[meleeka]

What is her conformation like? Is she built downhill?

That was going to be my question. Also what does she move like at liberty in the field? If your vet doesn’t think there’s a problem, could it be the way she’s built making it more difficult?

 

[jaffa2311]

Sorry but I was conscious of how long the post was, I was just trying to bang out main events on a timeline. I could write pages and pages and pages so it’s hard to choose what to include. Her first two years on ridden life were spent at home with me having lessons upon lessons.

I have done literally everything I can to give her the best start in life but nothing appears to work. I dread to think how much money I have spent.

She’s got good conformation, highest conformation mark in her last HOYS qualifier of 35 ponies. Often liked by judges etc but her ride always, always rightfully lets her down.
She’s a very pony, small welsh cob with good bone, short cannons, a beautiful wide front. Perhaps short neck and thick through her jaw would be my main criticisms.
I really like the look of Dan Wain from above recommendation and think this would be the next step after a vet hospital, if I have the willpower to continue.
I did look up direct referrals to a hospital but they do not offer this at Liphook or Donnington Grove according to their websites, hence the whole vet saga last year and making the decision to turn her away as I felt like the door was shut and i was spending a lot of money on my local vet and physio with zero progress.


She moves at liberty in the field well. She is always the instigator of play and will choose to run instead of walk to get up and down the field for water or to see me. When she’s really wound up and they’re pratting around then she bucks alot alot alot and will read, almost constantly which has also concerned me as being a tightness issue.

 

[jaffa2311]

No she isn’t built downhill at all

 

[TPO]

As you've said back pain is (usually) secondary to *something* else. So for a starter for ten that's a kicking off point.

Very strange that your vet wouldn't refer. There is non-typical movement and lack of performance.

I'd phone vets and TELL them you want a referral. If they still refuse find a new vet who will.

I had to do that recently when equine specialist vet couldn't have cared less about my dying horse. I changed to a mix practice who said they don't deal with complex cases but will refer them. I got a same day emergency referral to the hospital from them.

 

[Birker2020]

Owned pony since a weaned foal.
She’s had life of luxury for this whole time , with 24/7 turnout and access to a stable. A lovely stable group of 3 in a well fenced field.

She was shown at big shows as a youngster ie Royal welsh etc. Even inhand at 2/3, she had a slightly low head carriage.

She was professionally backed by an excellent, well known person aged 4. No issues at all.

She came home and I boxed her for lessons with a brilliant instructor for 2 years. We did an intro dressage test and some small ridden shows. She always had a low head carriage then but not horrendous. I was always reassured it was because she was young and unbalanced and would come with time and schooling.

She went to a professional producer for showing to have her first novice season aged 6. Novice season, so snaffle mouth. She did reasonably well, didn’t do loads of shows. Went sweetly in the snaffle but again a bit of a tendency to go head down or overbend which ruins the overall picture and stopped there being many red rosettes but always top of the line.

Next season was an open season so ideally needed a Pelham or double. This season was turbulent with riders, through no fault of her own. Anyway, long story short she went like crap.
The previous low head carriage/ on the forehand/ overbending is 100x worse. I cannot find a bit to help lift her (I am aware it’s not the answer).

I brought her home and took her back to a a snaffle bit and she was better again (but still a bit low). We did an affiliated dressage final and the judge did not like her way of going, despite doing an accurate, obedient test our scores were crap due to straightness and on the forehand.

Sorry I realise I’ve left out that she has seen all kinds of back people. Mctimoney, physio, sports massage, magical chiro vet man etc. She has a decent fitted saddle (Black Country).

She tried a few more open shows with a new pro rider, in various bits and was just getting worse and worse. Very very very on the forehand, running on extremely strong, changing legs in canter and going on the wrong leg and just not seeming settled or happy in the ring (hello red flags).

I brought her back home and got the vet out. Lameness exam done and deemed sound with a tight back. No further referrals required except physio.

3 x physio H wave sessions under sedation.

Turned away for a year at grass

Back to work after 14 months off and she is completely unchanged. Same old same old, head down and on the forehand, more on one rein. She is never nasty and it breaks my heart.

I’ve tried 2 x bute a day to see if it masks any pain and no difference.
I’ve tried a back on track rug.
I’ve tried a PSSM diet
I’ve tried bute
I’ve tried all brands of ‘back people’
I’ve gotten out the vet
I’ve tried many bits with the pony happy in a universal NS.
I’ve tried turning away for a year
I’ve tried stabling
I’ve tried professional riders

I am at my wits end. Do I just give up on her ridden career? What else can I do to save it? She’s happy as Larry living life in the field.

The vet did not want to refer in as was apparently fully sound, I just don’t know how to progress with further investigation.

Sounds like she might have some joint dysfunction in her neck - have you tried carrot stretches? Does she bend easily throughout her neck?

 

[Supercalifragilistic]

Well done for trying so many things. All I have to contribute is that in many disciplines outside showing 8 is still very young. If your physical exams continue to draw a blank then I would be inclined to just give her time with the very very basics. A weakness behind will show itself with a low carriage and running in front. Keep the work slow, keep it balanced and keep it in the correct frame. Even if all you are doing some days is walk, halt and trot transitions.
I say this having just got off an 8 year old who is competing affiliated at Ele (competitively) but tends still to drop BTV, in his case it all comes from a lack of strength behind. He can do lots of ‘fancy’ things like sideways and extensions but he actually still finds a really correct walk to halt transition where he has to ‘sit’ challenging.

 

[Birker2020]

Photos taken the first or second time the pro rider restarted Lari from his issues. As you can see he has a very low head carriage, and he had issues with his neck and also his back.
Maybe get a physio to take a look and see what they think?

 

[jaffa2311]

Photos taken the first or second time the pro rider restarted Lari from his issues. As you can see he has a very low head carriage, and he had issues with his neck and also his back.
Maybe get a physio to take a look and see what they think?

View attachment 125738

Those pictures are pretty similar to how she will go. She is the same on the lunge too.
I don’t use gadgets ever, ridden or lunging but she looks like she’s spent her life strapped in.
As a yearling she came in from the field with a wonky head/ bad neck once and minus a fly mask. It looked horrendous, I was hysterical and called an emergency vet out at the time. I thought she had sudden onset of wobblers. That’s how bad it was.
Her neck was swollen around the jaw but that was all they found. They did a strangles test and said they’d X-ray if it doesn’t resolve. I was convinced she’d broken it but it did resolve very fast so that was that.
I always wonder if it’s of any relevance.

 

[Hallo2012]

this is screaming neck or back issues-get neck and back x rays asap

 

[Zoeypxo]

I know of a welsh with the same sort of problem although maybe a bit more serious
always been very BTV and could only bend to the outside, turned out to have neck arthritis and KS

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I would just get a second opinion someone who is recommended and will get you a referral, some of the big equine hospitals will cover the local areas where they are based, I'm in Hertfordshire and I used to use Rossdales so my horses went to Newmarket for work ups, the RVC cover my area as well so your horse can automatically go in to the hospital if your registered with them.

I would find out if any local big hospitals will cover your area.

 

[ycbm]

She’s fully insured so I was really keen to send her off and find a problem. My vet said she can’t refer a horse without even a region to investigate.

Of course she can!

But you don't necessarily need a referral. There are three hospitals in my area that will do a workup without a referral, you just have to sign on as a client.

ETA a good orthopedic vet doesn't want to be told where to look, they seem to prefer a blank sheet. A friend of mine took hers with a suggestion of back or hocks. Vet saw her walk into the hospital and said "let's start at the neck". The neck was arthritic at C5.
.

 

[jaffa2311]

Of course she can!

But you don't necessarily need a referral. There are three hospitals in my area that will do a workup without a referral, you just have to sign on as a client.

ETA a good orthopedic vet doesn't want to be told where to look, they seem to prefer a blank sheet. A friend of mine took hers with a suggestion of back or hocks. Vet saw her walk into the hospital and said "let's start at the neck". The neck was arthritic at C5.
.

This is my dream come true… to find a vet that will take her and find problems.

 

[Birker2020]

This is my dream come true… to find a vet that will take her and find problems.

Its on everyone's wish list but it can also come at a price. Are you insured?

 

[Birker2020]

As a yearling she came in from the field with a wonky head/ bad neck once and minus a fly mask. It looked horrendous, I was hysterical and called an emergency vet out at the time. I thought she had sudden onset of wobblers. That’s how bad it was.

I'd hazard a guess that trauma to the neck region has caused calcification around the joints and this is why she struggles to maintain a decent neck carriage. I'd consider neck xrays as a first port of call. Does she have any neurological issues? Sometimes they can be very slight? This is a good video, however we might be jumping the gun a bit so I wouldn't panic, you need to get a vet involved by a referal as ycbm suggested. Most probably easily sorted with a steroid if this is the case.

 

[jaffa2311]

Insured up to £5 k per case with only exclusion being GI tract/colic.

Does the local vet do decent neck/spine X-rays or do I push for a referral for these?

 

[Birker2020]

Insured up to £5 k per case with only exclusion being GI tract/colic.

Does the local vet do decent neck/spine X-rays or do I push for a referral for these?

The local vet can do them but they might be more detailed at a vet hospital.

I got told there was nothing wrong with my horse when he had his neck x-rayed using a portable x-ray machine as the x-rays weren't able to get past the neck muscles for a clear image. But I've been told that they have greatly improved since then. That was in 2004 and his diagnosis was completely different from the original treating vets once he got to a vet hospital and he had a powerful machine take images.

 

[Landcruiser]

Insured up to £5 k per case with only exclusion being GI tract/colic.

Does the local vet do decent neck/spine X-rays or do I push for a referral for these?

Beware though, anything relating to the specific issues you have spoken to the vet about before is likely to be automatically excluded within 12 months of onset, even if you haven't claimed previously. I guess this would be the lameness exam where tightness in the back was diagnosed.

 

[jaffa2311]

Well my
Plan was to state she magically got better and this is a new presentation of poor performance and hoped that was a way around it?

 

[abb123]

I can understand your concern as there are some red flags that I would want investigating too. However, a lot of what you have described could just as easily be attributed to a young welsh cross pony not knowing or having the strength to use its body correctly.

You say that you had lessons for two years, but have you ever had a pro school her with an aim to getting her better in her self carriage?