At my witts end with saddle fitting...

[RubixCube]

I’ve had someone school my lad for me recently who has suggested a few things that don’t sit right with me.

I bought this horse about 3 months ago - he’s a Dartmoor X cob - He’s in a K&M GP med/wide gullet. He had a very very thick polypad type pad on which I hated so swapped for a Woof Wear saddle pad, which made the saddle drop a tad low. I popped a Acavallo Piuma front raiser on him as I knew he would change shape as he came back into work anyway. And this gave just enough lift at the front.

The woman who’s started schooling him took him out last week, and said he seemed sensitive going into the contact because his saddle is too tight. She has changed his gullet to a Wide, and put a half lined wool
Numnah under, and is still using the front raiser.

Does anyone have an answers to this? Everything about the change has totally confused me!

 

[fredflop]

Your post doesn’t really make sense.

at a guess with his breeding the Thorowgood med/wide gullet would be far to narrow. My Warmblood and thoroughbred are in the wide gullet

 

[CMcC]

Get a qualified saddle fitter out to advise you.

 

[RubixCube]

Your post doesn’t really make sense.

at a guess with his breeding the Thorowgood med/wide gullet would be far to narrow. My Warmblood and thoroughbred are in the wide gullet

Yes you would think so, but that’s what he was in when I got him and seemed ok to me but had a very think pad on with it. When I swapped that pad out for a cotton one the saddle dropped and needed a front riser. Now he’s been put in a wide with a wool pad and riser... which surely wouldn’t make it any wider at all?! I know it doesn’t make sense, that’s why i’m asking for advice.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Basically the saddle has never fit so you need a saddle fitter. A well fitted saddle shouldn't need thick padding underneath to fit.
Be careful a lot of damage can be done in a short time by a poorly fitted saddle.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

just get a saddler to come have a look. The cost of a saddle fitting is miniscule compared to the money spent on rehab when the horse gets sore.

 

[Vodkagirly]

You need a saddle fitter. Gullet width isn't everything.
I had a fitter out last night. I thought both saddles were the wrong width actually one horse needed less stuffing in the front the other needed more. I could of changed gullets but not changed stuffing.

 

[RubixCube]

I will get a fitter out when I can find one that is willing to travel the distance to see me... the nearest one is 100 miles away so have to wait until there’s a few of us in the area or they won’t travel. Unless I can find someone else that will travel - lockdowns make it harder as they’re not all on the road, remember!

I was just hoping for some advice in the meantime as I wasn’t convinced by what the woman had suggested. I haven’t come accross any problems with his saddle before this. I’m not refusing or complaining about paying for a fitter ownedbyaconnie, and Bellaboo It didn’t have or need padding before the gullet was changed to a wide. That was my only question - how is having a wide gullet over a thick wool pad ANY better than med/wide gullet over a cotton pad.

I was only after some advice as a stopgap, but clearly there’s none to be found here.

Vodkagirly - thank you for some actual advice.

 

[MereChristmas]

As others have said I think you need a saddle fitter. The fit is not just about gullet width. The tree must fit too.

There are plenty of HHO members who are much more informed about saddle fitting than I am. I hope they reply to your post.

 

[sbloom]

Where are you RubixCube?

Width is one thing, clearance is another, and front to back balance is yet another, they all need to be correct. If a saddle genuinely fitted once, it is rare that it can be too narrow AND too low on front, but if a horse has grown front or back, or changed shape a LOT, then possibly.

If a saddle is too narrow, ie the angle of the headplate is narrower than the horse's ribcage where the tree points sit, then if it's low in front you're doubling the issue. You already have more pressure at the points, relative to the top of the panel, and then you have more weight altogether on the front of the saddle if it's too low. And you still might have mild bridging on the inner part of the panel at least, up around the spine under the middle of the saddle, even if the front is low. This is why changeable headplates are actually a problem, if you don't understand those two things and think achieving balance, or clearance (usually one rather than both, for most owners) is the only aim, no matter how it's achieved.

Using a front riser isn't "using a cotton pad", you're substantially lifting the front of the saddle. So, wider, and suitable padding at the front (personally I'm not a big fan of the Acavallo pads, especially the risers, but some people find them great) is frequently an option.

I have never fitted a MW to a native or possibly even a native cross, I think you probably have a little muscle loss going on. As I say often fitting a wider headplate and THEN rebalancing the saddle with flocking and pads/shims is the way to go. And the headplate absolutely must not dig in at the points, so must not be too narrow.

However I suspect, if it's the round cantle Thorowgood then the tree isn't a good shape, and half the reason you're getting drop at the front is because the rails, in the stirrup bar area, aren't the right shape, as they're designed for more petite ribcages and spines. So these rails perch on the horse and act like rockers, with the front dropping when you girth up, especially if you use a point strap.

The narrower headplate propped the front up to disguise the fact the tree isn't the right shape. Have a look at the post on getting an older horse to work in an outline, I posted an interesting video that would apply to most horses lacking a bit of muscle and "needing" quite a narrow fitting saddle for their type.

 

[HeyMich]

A narrower gullet with a thin pad can cause pinching at the points of the tree, whereas a wider gullet with a thick pad/riser won't cause pinching, but will just lift the front to make the saddle more level. Sounds like your sharer/pro knows what they are talking about. Well, as far as I can tell anyway. A saddler/saddle fitter is your best bet.

Maybe show us some photos of both combinations and some of the wonderful HHO may be able to advise (if you haven't anoyed them too much with the tone of your last post).


ETA cross posted with SBloom - she knows what she's talking about, listen to her!

 

[sbloom]

Maybe show us some photos of both combinations and some of the wonderful HHO may be able to advise (if you haven't anoyed them too much with the tone of your last post).

Agreed, people aren't narky for the sake of it, if you're asking a question that demonstrates you may not have the experience/skill to correct the issue with some advice, and that applies to most people, and many saddle fitting issues, they will direct you to a fitter unless you fill in the context.

I cannot work at the moment, but I am offering remote consultations for a small charge, on photos and videos, for existing customers (only). It can't replace a hands on fitting but it's better than getting it wrong. Worth asking your fitter if they are providing such a service.

 

[Cortez]

I will get a fitter out when I can find one that is willing to travel the distance to see me... the nearest one is 100 miles away so have to wait until there’s a few of us in the area or they won’t travel. Unless I can find someone else that will travel - lockdowns make it harder as they’re not all on the road, remember!

I was just hoping for some advice in the meantime as I wasn’t convinced by what the woman had suggested. I haven’t come accross any problems with his saddle before this. I’m not refusing or complaining about paying for a fitter ownedbyaconnie, and Bellaboo It didn’t have or need padding before the gullet was changed to a wide. That was my only question - how is having a wide gullet over a thick wool pad ANY better than med/wide gullet over a cotton pad.

I was only after some advice as a stopgap, but clearly there’s none to be found here.

Vodkagirly - thank you for some actual advice.

Don't get shirty because you have been given advice that you don't like, most of which is the only sensible answer to your dilemma. Why would you prefer to listen to a bunch of randomers on an internet forum who cannot see your horse or saddle, rather than do the sensible thing, which is to get a professional saddle fitter out to asses?

 

[RubixCube]

Sbloom - thank you. All I was looking for was someone to explain what the difference would be. It’s very difficult to explain all the context on a forum message without droning on and on... I tried to condense the issue to a readable post and possible left out some important information.

HeyMitch - the tone of my previous post came from frustration. I apologise.

I’m not the most knowledgeable about saddle fitting, and I was by no means suggesting that I had the necessary skill to resolve the issue without help. It’s difficult to find a saddler that will travel to my location, even moreso at the moment. I literally feel like crying at the moment, and was just looking for some clarification that what the ‘pro’ had suggested was the right way to go. I don’t want to cause him any issues in the longrun, and this is just a short term thing until i can find a saddler to come out!

Sbloom - the pius featherlight riser was being used with the cottonpad, and is still being used with the wool numnah. I’m not sure if that makes a difference. It’s not the round cantle, it’s square. Thank you for the help, I will have a look at the posts you suggested.

 

[Widgeon]

I will get a fitter out when I can find one that is willing to travel the distance to see me... the nearest one is 100 miles away so have to wait until there’s a few of us in the area or they won’t travel. Unless I can find someone else that will travel - lockdowns make it harder as they’re not all on the road, remember!

Just a suggestion but if you are desperate could you make some templates of his back with a wire coathanger, take plenty of photos and measurements, and email them over to a saddle fitter? I've just been through a round of phoning saddle fitters and retailers and a couple of them suggested this as an interim solution given lockdown etc. Obviously it's not a replacement for someone actually seeing your pony but it should at least give them enough info to advise whether the saddle he's in now *ought* to fit him or not. They may even be able to suggest some types of saddle that would fit him that you could pick up second hand and try on. Not ideal but it sounds like you need to make the best of a really difficult situation at the moment - best of luck. I've decided that next to horse shopping, saddle shopping (fitting) is the worst!

 

[RubixCube]

Just a suggestion but if you are desperate could you make some templates of his back with a wire coathanger, take plenty of photos and measurements, and email them over to a saddle fitter? I've just been through a round of phoning saddle fitters and retailers and a couple of them suggested this as an interim solution given lockdown etc. Obviously it's not a replacement for someone actually seeing your pony but it should at least give them enough info to advise whether the saddle he's in now *ought* to fit him or not. They may even be able to suggest some types of saddle that would fit him that you could pick up second hand and try on. Not ideal but it sounds like you need to make the best of a really difficult situation at the moment - best of luck. I've decided that next to horse shopping, saddle shopping (fitting) is the worst!

Thank you! I will look into that!

 

[PurBee]

This is abit of a wild idea - but considering lockdown and your saddlefitters being 100 miles away..

You could do a plastercast of your horse’s back. You get art supplies plaster cast bandages, they set pretty quickly too.
You’d want to clingfilm over his back and whithers before laying the wet plaster bandage lengths across the back, so the plaster doesnt stick to hair - have a barrier between hair and cast enabling you to lift off the cast once dry.

Build up the layers, criss crossing it, running your hands over it to smooth it. It would dry quickly as a 3-4 layer cast. You can trim the edges once its dry and off the back to neaten it. Post it with air pocket packaging to a saddle fitter.

Theres bound to be youtube vids about plaster casting for guidance.

i know - its a crazy idea! Lol

 

[HeyMich]

This is abit of a wild idea - but considering lockdown and your saddlefitters being 100 miles away..

You could do a plastercast of your horse’s back. You get art supplies plaster cast bandages, they set pretty quickly too.
You’d want to clingfilm over his back and whithers before laying the wet plaster bandage lengths across the back, so the plaster doesnt stick to hair - have a barrier between hair and cast enabling you to lift off the cast once dry.

Build up the layers, criss crossing it, running your hands over it to smooth it. It would dry quickly as a 3-4 layer cast. You can trim the edges once its dry and off the back to neaten it. Post it with air pocket packaging to a saddle fitter.

Theres bound to be youtube vids about plaster casting for guidance.

i know - its a crazy idea! Lol

What would she do with the plaster case once it's done? Post it to the saddle fitter?

 

[PurBee]

What would she do with the plaster case once it's done? Post it to the saddle fitter?

lol yep! With plenty of packaging naturally, like if you were packaging glass. Its a load of hassle, but the saddle fitter would have a ‘model’ of the horses back without seeing the horse, and could suggest saddle sizes and pads based on the cast. Of course nothing beats an inperson consult.
But im not expert at all with saddles and so maybe even a cast for a fitter wouldnt be of use.

These are wild times, wild solutions are sometimes called for! ?

 

[sbloom]

No, stop!!

I go off photos even for advising which "new" saddle may fit, as does our HQ when sending saddles abroad, though we will often, in that case, guide people as to how to take the tracing correctly. Many other fitters might too - even taking a template differs from person to person, you need to get it in the right place. You have a saddle (and you have the cob which is better than having the regular one but I'm no great fan) so you can send photos of the saddle fit. Talk to the fitter, see what he or she needs, no point doing a plastercast (and sorry, but no point in any case whatsoever!) but possibly even not a tracing.

This is what we go off for checking our customers saddles,plus ideally a video taken from the middle of a circle, rising trot, in decent light and not too far away from the camera, both reins:

https://www.ahsaddles.com/photos-for-a-saddle-adjustment

You'll find another link for how to take a tracing, and either there or in the blog how to measure the saddle platform too. Not relevant for adjusting a saddle usually but useful for all sorts else.

I will add that anything that concentrates wholly on a 3D model of the horse's back (understanding that a remote fitting is limited) ignores the much bigger issue, the shape of the horse's back in work. I'm not a fan of any of the systems I've seen. The photos I've linked to are WAY more useful when you're checking a saddle you have, right there with you.

 

[ycbm]

Yes you would think so, but that’s what he was in when I got him and seemed ok to me but had a very think pad on with it. When I swapped that pad out for a cotton one the saddle dropped and needed a front riser. Now he’s been put in a wide with a wool pad and riser... which surely wouldn’t make it any wider at all?! I know it doesn’t make sense, that’s why i’m asking for advice.

Risers often make a saddle sit wider at the front . They lift it up so that a wider part of the gullet plate is where it touches the horse.

 

[sbloom]

Sbloom - the pius featherlight riser was being used with the cottonpad, and is still being used with the wool numnah. I’m not sure if that makes a difference. It’s not the round cantle, it’s square. Thank you for the help, I will have a look at the posts you suggested.

So, front riser plus thicker pad may be enough to balance the saddle in the wider fitting compared to a front rise and thinner pad under the narrower fitting, perfectly logical . Until you have someone assess the saddle it's impossible to say. Personally I'm a big fan of sheepskin, and a correction pad (pocket pad) though I only really recommend the Mattes one, you can not only lift the front but you can have more depth down under the tree points and less up at the top, if the saddle is a bit wide in the tree angle. Plus contour the pad for mild bridging and asymmetry. Not cheap pads but fabulous.

 

[sbloom]

Risers often make a saddle sit wider at the front . They lift it up so that a wider part of the gullet plate is where it touches the horse.

I'd somewhat disagree, they fail to redistribute the pressure down the arms of the headplate, but they will reduce pressure in all areas if they lift the front of the saddle into better balance. However, the Acavallo is such a weird shape that it SORT Of does what you're saying, in that it tapers down under the points, where more support may be needed. However for a hollow horse it can fill out the inward curve of the horse's muscles, but it's a very blunt instrument, and unstable.

If a rider can't feel down the front of the saddle,knowledgeably, and know if there is too much pressure at top of bottom, and check for bridging, then even something as simple as using a front riser can be problematic.

 

[ycbm]

I don't disagree it's a very blunt instrument but I've seen many "too narrow" saddles over the years lifted by a front riser to a place where the points were no longer "too narrow". It is NOT a substitute for a saddle which fits properly, of course.,

 

[sbloom]

Oh God no, a too narrow saddle shouldn't be on a horse, lifted or not. Lifted further it would normally bridge, if it's not already doing so, so lifting it would be nuts.

This is a rare case, certainly for a saddle that has previously fitted correctly (though that is an assumption in this case). And I would say that on any horse with health muscle lifting the saddle will make the points look narrower, ie more upright, compared to the part of the back it's sitting on, though on a hollow horse then sure, they could look more parallel and therefore in some ways "less narrow".

 

[RubixCube]

So, front riser plus thicker pad may be enough to balance the saddle in the wider fitting compared to a front rise and thinner pad under the narrower fitting, perfectly logical . Until you have someone assess the saddle it's impossible to say. Personally I'm a big fan of sheepskin, and a correction pad (pocket pad) though I only really recommend the Mattes one, you can not only lift the front but you can have more depth down under the tree points and less up at the top, if the saddle is a bit wide in the tree angle. Plus contour the pad for mild bridging and asymmetry. Not cheap pads but fabulous.

Thank you for this - this is what I wanted/needed explained! The changes seemed confusing to me, as I lack knowledge with saddle fitting! I guess she knew what she was doing in theory but seemed to stuggle to explain how it would make a difference to the horse when I asked. I will also add that this woman has known the horse a lot longer than I (most of his life actually) and knew him when he was at his peak before being sold on to his previous home. He was in the same saddle then (approx.3 years ago), and it fitted well at the time... or at least i’m told so I assume it’s the case. I have no emotional attachment to his saddle - in fact, I don’t particularly like it at all?

I have been looking at the Mattes, or the Le Mieux Prosorb, as she did recommend getting a lambskin with shim/correction pockets. But I am arranging a saddler visit (hopefully, or at least a video call!) ?