At the risk of causing an argument...

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sfward

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For those who detest draw reins and similar gadgets, how do you persuade a horse which insists on going with its nose in the air to work correctly, without resorting to such means? I'm not talking about young horses here, but older horses who have never been taught to go in the correct way and are now established (and strong) in their evasions.

I ask partly because I'm interested in other people's methods, partly because I'm helping a girl who is having this problem and partly because I read so many stern tracts/book reviews about teaching the rider to 'ride correctly' and the horse to 'go correctly' which quite frankly annoy me because they are so vague and never explain themselves in clear terms - it's all about the end result, not the means to getting there. Surely the short term use of gadgets which help to get an idea into a horse's head, when used correctly, cannot be THAT bad...?

So - thoughts (and methods!) please?
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I've just started using a pessoa on my older mare....she's 17 and despite having her 10 years she has been on and off with injuries etc the whole time (arthritis in various joints, a kick injury that laid her off for 6 months etc etc) and tbh I only started thinking about how she went a few years ago. The thing that made the difference though was my very determined and patient friend who had her on loan for a year and just kept asking and asking and asking....eventually the horse gave in before the rider and I've just reaped the benefits!! However she will still go like a giraffe unless you ask her to round, I think she will be like that forever now!!
 
Alwaya always more leg, more impulsion more forwards , learning to maitain a steady contact ie rider keeps their bloody hands still! lots of work on circles and lots of transitions.

I know this as I own a flip top head horse. It is a long and hard hard road.
 
I struggled for 2 years with an older mare (in her teens) who would not, under under circumstances, take up a good outline. Its not like I dont know what Im doing either. I put draw reins on her for 5 minutes and never had a problem after that.

Sometimes a short term fix gets the message across.
 
Hmm you see it's tricky, I know what I'M asking when I ride the pony, and it does work, albeit on and off and with a lot of hard work, but the owner just can't manage it. I just don't know what to suggest beyond lunging in chambon or similar and perseverance! I actually attach draw reins to long rein in for short periods, and it works - she soon gives up fighting and starts to stretch down, but does this really make me cruel and ignorant??
 
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Alwaya always more leg, more impulsion more forwards , learning to maitain a steady contact ie rider keeps their bloody hands still! lots of work on circles and lots of transitions.


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Thank you, good that is what I'm teaching her. Unfortunately the hands are a problem... Any tips for improving this?
 
Understanding why they're hollowing helps. For most its either because their rider has poor hands or because they're habitually hollow as a result of having someone with poor hands in the past. You do, of course, have to take conformation into account also.

I start from the ground with these horses and i start asking them to drop their heads by nudging at the corners of the mouth with the bit. This is done in an upwards direction which is quite contrary to what many people are taught and to where many riders' hands are.

Once they're soften on the ground, the same procedure is applied when on their backs. That is to say, the rider nudges the very corner of the mouth in quite an upwards direction. This means the hand is raised quite high to nudge the mouth. When the head drops, and it will, the hand is lowered to a "normal" riding position - this is the reward.

Why? Low hands place pressure on the tongue. Pressure on the tongue is painful and the most frequent display of objection from horses is to hollow and star gaze. A second objection is to drop behind the contact and over bend. All any of this does is teach a fear of the bit and the riders hands; as opposed to an acceptance of.

I also tend to work these horses on circles quite extensively. Its mechanically impossible for a horse to invert his neck while correctly flexed. So lots of circling.... i like to leg yield in and out of circles as it also helps engage the rear end.

Lots of emphasis on the riders hands but also there should be careful attention paid to ensuring the horse goes forward as well.

As for the short term use of gadgets - no, i still dont agree with them as their down sides nearly always outweigh the good sides and they dont teach the rider to tackle the problem; they just skirt around the edge and usually leave a horse that works incorrectly anyway.

The article on the front page of my blog here:- http://dressage.wordpress.com/ explains the procedure for the ground work.
 
I have suggested them, but didn't come to much. Trouble is you can buy gadgets forever can't you?!! Maybe I should suggest she uses my side reins as reins - they have elastic inserts!!
 
Those reins wont help a rider who cant keep their hands still.

Is it purely a hand issue or is it coming back to an incorrect or insecure seat? You tend to get two kind of hand problems (imo). Firstly are the ones who dont sit correctly and the wobbly hands are traced back to a wobbly everything else. Secondly are the people who've been taught to fiddle endlessly with the horses' mouth, to the point where they cant stop fiddling
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A rider with a deep, secure and independent seat will find keeping their hands still much easier. Many people tip forwards and hover over their hands using them for balance, that presses the hands down too low which in exchange presses on the mouth causing the horse to shoot the head up. Being able to sit correctly on their seat and maintain their own balance makes it much easier to hold their hands in the correct position and keep them stiller.

The only way to achieve that position is endless practice, good teaching and correction of the seat. Lunge lessons all the way
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No, it's her seat. She broke her back a while ago and I think is still quite weak through her core. I can see the problem but am a little out of my depth in helping her to fix it - I can see she needs a stronger more independent seat which will allow quieter hands, but not really sure how to teach her to achieve this. Don't know if I would be confident giving her lunge lessons. I'm just helping her out of my own knowledge, which runs from my own experience and I am the first to admit that while I have a reasonable understanding of dressage principles, I'm certainly no classical dressage expert!
Thank you for the link to the article, I will have a play with her on the ground tomorrow. It's reassuring to know that I'm basically on the right lines in what I'm getting her to do.
 
I got the sylvia loch dvd 'on the bit'.
Please bare in mind that this horse will have to build up muscle and it will initially not be able to maintain a descent self carriage for more than afew seconds to begin with. I ride a horse that previously had laminitis and also is very croup high and before I had the chiropract out it would have been impossible for him to have any kind of outline as he had been pottery and had a laminitic stance it had a knock on effect to the rest of his muscles. Also remember that an outline starts from behind so work on getting the horses quarters underneath it, and have its saddle checked as it will not want to raise its back into anythinmg that hurts. Its always tempting to just get frustrated and strap a horses head down without thinking of the animal be patient!
 
It is all up to your seat, and your hands - if the horse works of you correctly, it will frame up. If not you have to go back to basics, or three transitions, and do lots of lunging.

One thing I would check is if your horse has a strong back/backend - if not make them work with their head down, and walk up and down big hills - it will be good for them.
 
Hello,
That sounds like my yellow thing when I got him
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He did a fab impression of a giraffe (and still does now at times) with his head up and slightly out to one side where he found he do whatever the hell he liked and there was bu**er all you could do about it
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My instructor solved the problem by doing LOTS of lungeing with two lines (to build him up) and longreining (to help with the nappiness).
She had him at her yard for 5 weeks as I was unable to ride after fall and when he came back he still needed lungeing with two lines before getting on him for 10-15 mins.
He is much, much better now although he does do it occasionally he is so much easier to shake off. It was just something he learnt along the way which he felt was easier than working properly.
I didn't have a clue how to stop this behaviour so had to get someone who knew what they were talking about involved and I'm glad I did as god knows where we would be now
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I think you are focusing on the wrong end of the horse.
Working in an outline is nothing to do with the head and neck, and putting pressure on the horse's mouth til it drops its head.
That is utterly pointless.
Instead, look at the horse's hindquarters - is it sound, is its pelvis level? What sort of muscle development does it have?
Then work the horse on the lunge, initially work on going forward freely (without anything other than cavesson and boots if you can.
Then add side reins and work the horse forward...the horse will find its own outline and soften to the side reins. If it is a little fixed in its neck, try gently flexing its neck in and out (still on the lunge) to encourage it to soften the neck muscles and stretch down.
Then do the same under saddle, keeping still hands, but using leg whenever the horse starts to hollow, rather than hand.
Hope this helps.
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My instructer gets me to sit deep in the saddle and very occasionally sponge with my fingers on the reins- I do not mean saeing or jabbing, my hands do not appear to move nor does his head.This prevents him taking hold of the bit and feeling heavy in your hands, this must be met with impulsion from his hind quarters .
Also I have to have my reins held wide as though the reins are like an open tunnel and I push him in with my seat and legs, once there I can slowly decrease the width of the tunnel.

I never fight with him to go on the bridle and work in an outline, he's far stronger than I, but often tell him to go down and praise him when he does and the give him rein and he should keep the contact.If he doesn't I take a little stronger contact and repeat the whole exercise.

It works for my horse, but other people might disagree with the way that I have been taught.its all about consistencey , but without a good position and good hands it makes it so much harder to achieve.

It is a very contensious issue and I guess there are never two answers the same.

By the way my horse is 12 and was a nose poker .
 
Agree, its not about the head. Its about having the whole body in a place where the head automatically is inclined to lower and soften.

Lateral work on the ground, focusing on softness and flexing horse body before you get up.

- can horse turn his neck/head to right and left WITHOUT moving his feet?
-can he do HQ yield?
- can he do foreq yield (is are his shoulder braced or loose?)
- can he sidepass (Very important)
- can he backup (again if shoulders stuck backup will be very hard - and so will moving correctly when ridden)


Then when you get up, if horse can travel lightly & softly with tiny cues around a circle with the same bend as the circle, then you've already got both lateral flexion (neck turn) and soft ribs (horse can wrap his ribs around your inside leg with very light cue) then everything is in place and head will automatically start to come down, as back is already rounded nd HQ engaged.

here's the step by step:

http://irishnhsociety.proboards41.com/in...read=1189155540

This is nice cos not only does it get the horse going nicely & softly, it does the same for the human
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I met a lady who had same question, and she did her first lesson last sunday with me, and we focused on the groundwork stuff - mainly horse standing still with head turned, which the hrose found mentally REALLY hard to do.... horse up to now does circles and corners like a motorbike / no bend at all. Here is an excerpt from her account of it:

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Last night I went to my horse, the day after our first lesson. I still can't figure out who had the zen experience, me or the horse, or maybe both of us, and maybe at the same time! Anyway here's what happened. Poor Elaine had to come up on a very cold and windy day to the yard for our first meeting. She was very quiet, still and unfussy. To be honest I felt like I was being examined, never mind the horse! Suddenly I was wondering if I was leading on the right leg walking to the stable door. Off to the arena and we began our groundwork in the rain. We started doing flexion things on either side of Beoga. He does everything too quickly, too fast. She showed me how to release the split second I get a less-than-negative response and before his feet started dancing. I could see his frustration while these things were introduced to him - he kicked out, shook his head, dropped his head, waved his hinds, whatever he could do to evade me he tried it. We worked with him on flexion, touching his face, and backing up.

To be honest the most valuable piece to me was realising that moment when he become pliant or soft. When I felt his resistence go. For example, sometimes he would move his head, but he was pushing against me. Then there's this moment then when he softens...

So last night I did my homework, or rather he did. He did it with such an attitude of "yeah you want me to look left, right, across, move backwards, whats the big deal???"
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Then riding him, although my lesson was groundwork, the idea of that softness was in my head, and rather than our usual half-halting escapades, I felt moments of him going soft in my hands again, and I rewarded him. And he learned something! It was a whole new riding experience. It was so enjoyable! Like I said I don't know if it was me or him that had the zen-like experience.




 
Yea thats going to be a tricky one. Does she do any other excercise to help with this? Many people underestimate the amount of core strength needed to ride correctly. Good hands are hard to achieve and it all comes back to how the rider is sitting.

Annoyingly, its one of those things that is really best taught on the lunge where you can take away both her stirrups and reins. This way she has no reins to balance on with her hands and she doesnt have to worry about what the horse is doing... rather concentrate on her own position.

How about suggesting to her that she takes some lessons on a mechanical horse? That will also help to teach her how to sit correctly.

As grim as it sounds... without solving the issue with her hands, getting the horse to ever work correctly will be an upward struggle for you. Even if YOU can get on and get a tune out of him, she wont be able to.

Many people believe that riding with high hands makes a horse more hollow and that simply isnt true. Infact, its quite common to see people riding a very hollow, star gazing horse with extremely low hands... thats their natural reaction. Horses head shoots up, riders hands bury down, this places more pressure on the tongue and causes the horse to fight more. Frequently, they also back right off the horse at it becomes somewhat intimidating, so any forward motion goes out of the window.

In actual fact, when the head goes up, the first thing is to check that the horse is still going forwards, if not, apply the leg. Once its moving again, then check with the hand (always always leg first and then hand), raise the hand and ensure you're literally only nudging at the corners of the mouth - the head will drop and the hand can then be lowered.

As i said, since the horse is hollow excessively, id be doing all of this on a circle and at walk initially until hes softening nicely. Then ask for trot and see how it goes. Trot is generally where it all then falls apart as an already unbalanced rider then has to ride and sit and generally, you'll see the hands doing the same thing which again, shoots the head in the air
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Teaching is fun huh? ;p

Seriously though, she needs to sort her position to ever suceed with this. While you could indeed slap some form of gadget on the pony and give her some control of the head, you wouldnt be achieving all that much long term. You could potentially create a fixed head issue - but at some point, that will then need unschooling anyway.

Its hard.. particularly if you have a rider who wants to see results NOW and doesnt appreciate the amount of ground work that needs to be done. This, incidently, is part of the reason i got disheartened with the teaching.

Inidently, often with very hollow horses, you have to pick them up quite short before you can encourage them to stretch correctly (by correctly i mean with the head down and out with the nose on or ahead of the verticle). If its necessary to do so, then go with it. Just make sure that by the end of the session, the horse will take the contact forwards and down and stretch correctly over his back. Its sometimes futile trying to get them to work long and low right from word go.
 
sometimes perhaps gagdets do help? My horse normally works well, but would never ever bring his head in naturally, lots of transitions and circles didnt help either, just goes along with his nose poked out all the time.
 
Incidently, while i dont disagree with whats said about ensuring the horse is working forwards, without the core strength in her body and still hands, its wont come together.

She can generate all the impulsion in the world, but without good hands, it will escape straight out of the front end and the horse will become flat and hurried. Hence i was advising to sort the position as paramount
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sometimes perhaps gagdets do help? My horse normally works well, but would never ever bring his head in naturally, lots of transitions and circles didnt help either, just goes along with his nose poked out all the time.

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Sometimes they do, but sometimes they just set up tension, evasions and perhaps future stiffness or even unsoundness elsewhere.
You have to be really sure of what you're doing, understand equine anatomy and biomechanics, blah blah.
S
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Completely off track from the original poster, but Tierra, thank you for posting those three comments. It has given me much food for thought. In parts you seem to be describing me.
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That has provided encouragement about what I'm doing, reinforced many of my ideas and given me lmore to focus on.
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You're welcome
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If you ever need any specific advice, just PM me and i'll help as much as i can
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Its very very hard because, in a case like this, it sounds like there is a problem with multiple areas.

Yes, riding correctly means riding from back to front. The hind end needs to engage, the back needs to be rounded and connected and then, the head will come into place. However, as i mentioned, without good hands, this simply wont happen. So while its not solely the job of the hands to create the outline, without them - it wont come together.

For a rider who cant sit correctly and has wobbly hands, creating implusion will rush the horse forwards. If she cant sit back correctly, holding that implusion will be hard, she'll be tipped forwards, thus dropping the horse onto his forehand. If the hands are then poor, everything just escapes forwards. So while shes created the impulsion, she then cant control it.
 
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You're welcome
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If you ever need any specific advice, just PM me and i'll help as much as i can
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You never got back to me
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Sometimes a short term fix gets the message across.

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Agree with this. Ellie is always very pokey-nosey when I first start schooling her, almost like she is showing off. 15 minutes work with the bungee on is normally enough to get her to realise that I am asking her to work in an outline, not with her nose in the air. It is tricky, because when we were show jumping (she from the age of 5 - 11, me from the age of 12 - 18) we never really put much emphasis on a 'correct' outline - our trainer used to have use do gridwork with the bungee on, something I wouldnt dream of doing now. Now we have taken up dressage, I've realised just how hollow she has been all those years, how I have never managed to get her truly 'under me' and so on. She's 13 now, and very set in her ways, and although I would love to be able to avoid 'gadgets' altogether, even my dressage instructor has hinted that, perhaps in Ellie's case, this may not be possible. We are working very hard to avoid the gadgets though!
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