Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
As title, when would/what would you speak out or report to parent, yard owner or actual rider?
At what point does bad riding cross into cruelty?
- Thread starter Gingerwitch
- Start date
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
How old is the child, GW?
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
That is a bit of a how long is a piece of string question!
If it is an informal "informing" people of what you have seen, it wouldn't have to be very much at all.
I would generally inform the horse owner, as long as they were approachable and likely to be interested (how long is a piece of string again).
For any authorities to pay attention, the poor horse would have to be half dead.
If it is an informal "informing" people of what you have seen, it wouldn't have to be very much at all.
I would generally inform the horse owner, as long as they were approachable and likely to be interested (how long is a piece of string again).
For any authorities to pay attention, the poor horse would have to be half dead.
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
13 x
katastrophykat
Well-Known Member
Parent instantly, if parent is sensible and fair. If not, YO.
Glitterandrainbows
Well-Known Member
Yard owner for sure when I was that age I took everything my yard owner said seriously (mainly sweeping ?) but if my mum said something I’d be like it’s just another thing to moan at me for!
SilverLinings
Well-Known Member
I would say that at age 13 the bad riding may be due to ignorance and not intentional cruelty. If someone has explained to the child that what they are doing causes the horse pain and/or distress, and that it is cruel, and the child continues to behave in the same way to the horse then it is cruelty. If you don't think the child has knowledge of what they are doing then I would point out to the parents that the child needs educating; if the child has already been made aware of the results of their actions then I would tell the parents that the child is being cruel to the horse, and that if it doesn't stop immediately then you will be speaking to the YO (and possibly the authorities depending on the severity).
FWIW I think that 'cruelty' is knowingly inflicting pain and/or suffering (e.g. mentally) on the horse with no mitigating factors (e.g. temporarily inflicting pain to avoid a worse situation for the horse- e.g. medical interventions or emergency situations). Repeatedly doing this increases the severity of the case, not just the amount of pain caused each time; so causing 'minor' pain frequently is no less bad than causing 'severe' pain once IYSWIM. Cruelty includes causing suffering by with holding something necessary (e.g. food, veterinary treatment etc) not just by inflicting something bad on the animal (e.g. hitting it).
With regards to bad riding tipping into cruelty I would include things like beating the horse, rapping, repeatedly jabbing it in the mouth, finding it amusing to repeatedly force the horse into situations where it feels fear (I don't mean careful exposure to teach the horse that tractors etc aren't scary).
FWIW I think that 'cruelty' is knowingly inflicting pain and/or suffering (e.g. mentally) on the horse with no mitigating factors (e.g. temporarily inflicting pain to avoid a worse situation for the horse- e.g. medical interventions or emergency situations). Repeatedly doing this increases the severity of the case, not just the amount of pain caused each time; so causing 'minor' pain frequently is no less bad than causing 'severe' pain once IYSWIM. Cruelty includes causing suffering by with holding something necessary (e.g. food, veterinary treatment etc) not just by inflicting something bad on the animal (e.g. hitting it).
With regards to bad riding tipping into cruelty I would include things like beating the horse, rapping, repeatedly jabbing it in the mouth, finding it amusing to repeatedly force the horse into situations where it feels fear (I don't mean careful exposure to teach the horse that tractors etc aren't scary).
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
If I was concerned enough to ask on here, Id tell the parent and see if that changes anything. If not, YO. The fact your thinking it might be cruelty means it must be more severe than regular stuff that so many horsey people do (which much of which I think can be cruel but hey ho!).
Bad riding to me is obvious stuff like a rider losing balance and accidentally catching the horse in the mouth.
Bad riding to me is obvious stuff like a rider losing balance and accidentally catching the horse in the mouth.
cold_feet
Well-Known Member
Why not speak direct to the child?
SO1
Well-Known Member
Depends what it is you probably need to speak to parents first as children at that age can be full of hormones and it is a difficult age.
Is it riding a obviously lame pony or riding for hours on end doing lots of jumping when the pony is exhausted or lack of skill? What would you do if it was an adult?
Speak to YO and then YO to speak to parents is probably the best option.
Is it riding a obviously lame pony or riding for hours on end doing lots of jumping when the pony is exhausted or lack of skill? What would you do if it was an adult?
Speak to YO and then YO to speak to parents is probably the best option.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
As a fellow livery, all you can do, imho, is to speak to YO, hoping that s/he will speak to rider/parents, unless you see something which is immediately dangerous and needs instant intervention to avoid serious injury to horse or rider
maggiestar
Well-Known Member
Just speak up as you see it. Good people who can see cruelty in action shouldn't be afraid to stand up and be confident to call it out. No need to make it a drama, just be firm and adult about things. If you're not sure whether it's cruelty or ignorance then you can pose a question: 'Did you mean to boot him in the ribs ten times?' etc
scats
Well-Known Member
I spoke to the mother of a hideous older teen about her behaviour on a horse. Mother thanked me for telling her but said she wouldn’t confront the ‘child’ because it would send her into a rage (you getting the picture here?) but would talk to her gently to see if anything was bothering her…
J&S
Well-Known Member
This can be such an explosive area! As a PC instructor and ride leader I once explained to a child the danger of what she was doing (pony tied to lorry by bit ring) and for my troubles I had the biggest mouthful of abuse from the mother because I had "upset" this child.
It might be worth warning the parent before you approach the child to see whether you are going to get back up from the parent.
It might be worth warning the parent before you approach the child to see whether you are going to get back up from the parent.
Ratface
Well-Known Member
Perhaps mother could liase with violent young person's school/education provider/work place and ask if yp had violent temper tantrums there? If this yp doesn't get appropriate and useful diagnosis/help, they may end up in prison, which is likely to make things a lot worse
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
She is trying to whizz it up by whipping it in front of a solid wall.
stangs
Well-Known Member
That’s not bad riding. That’s either deliberate cruelty and lack of anger management, because the horse isn’t doing what she wants it to do at her pace, or ignorance stemming from a POS instructor.
I’d ask YM/parent to intervene ASAP and explain why that’s a completely unacceptable “method of training”.
I’d ask YM/parent to intervene ASAP and explain why that’s a completely unacceptable “method of training”.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
I would be so tempted to remove the whip from her hand but probably best to film the incident on your phone and let YO/parent know. If you don't get anywhere you have the video evidence, which could 'inadvertently' be shared online. Does she have an instructor who would be interested?
SilverLinings
Well-Known Member
I would say that is cruel, and someone needs to speak to her and explain the long term detrimental psychological effect that will have on the horse (and the short term negative physical effect, but I'd really worry if she couldn't already see that one). If she still does it I would speak to the YO as it is unacceptable to corner a horse and beat it.
ETA I agree with PAS re. filming it, it may help when speaking to the parent/YO as they can't brush it off or claim you are exaggerating/the girl didn't mean it/etc.
oldie48
Well-Known Member
Goodness that's quite extreme! tbh this is when my manners and tact would go out the window. I would tell child if I ever see her doing that again I will video and send to the RSPCA but would definitely tell the parents as well. This is completely unacceptable behaviour and she needs to know that.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
I'd say that's going beyond bad riding and is just cruelty- I think it's to the point where a welfare organisation *might* even take an interest, because it's obvious, deliberate abuse.
I would film it, let parents and the YO know you have done so, and explain you will share with welfare organisations if it doesn't stop. I'd also share with PC etc if she was a member.
Dave's Mam
Well-Known Member
What? I am not sure that I would have been able to stop myself removing the whip & speaking to the parents immediately.
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SilverLinings
Well-Known Member
Considering what has been in the press recently (hunt lady slapping a pony in the face) the teenager needs to be made aware that behaviour like the OP describes could have a very negative impact on their future life-choices, particularly if anyone posts it on SM (I mean that as a fact, not that you should threaten her!).
SO1
Well-Known Member
Gosh not what I expected at all.
I would film if possible if so she cannot deny and try and get YO to speak to parents. I don't know where she came up with this idea of training. If she wants a whizzy pony and this pony is laid back then perhaps wrong partnership and suggest pony should be sold to someone who can appreciate it or young person needs lessons if she is not already having them.
Or offer to help asking her what she is trying to achieve by asking the pony to go forward with nowhere to go and saying that pony is not going to understand what she wants as she is asking for it go forwards with no where to go and that you are sure that she loves her pony but this is way of training is cruel even if she has seen professional do it.
I wonder if she has got the idea from social media.
I would film if possible if so she cannot deny and try and get YO to speak to parents. I don't know where she came up with this idea of training. If she wants a whizzy pony and this pony is laid back then perhaps wrong partnership and suggest pony should be sold to someone who can appreciate it or young person needs lessons if she is not already having them.
Or offer to help asking her what she is trying to achieve by asking the pony to go forward with nowhere to go and saying that pony is not going to understand what she wants as she is asking for it go forwards with no where to go and that you are sure that she loves her pony but this is way of training is cruel even if she has seen professional do it.
I wonder if she has got the idea from social media.
Snowfilly
Well-Known Member
Yep that’s deliberate cruelty not just bad riding and I would go absolutely nuclear on her. Tell parents, yard owner, instructor, the other kids on the yard if there are any - you don’t want any of them getting the idea this is acceptable- and I would report to the RSPCA as well. They won’t do a lot but hopefully a call / visit from someone in authority will frighten her. If she’s a member of a pony club or riding club, also contact them if you can. Someone got kicked out of a local riding club a while back for much less.
If it ever happens again, video and send video to police, regardless of her age.
I would be careful about uploading to social media sadly - a good lot of strangers yelling at her would probably teach her a lesson but you can get in trouble for sharing videos of minors.
Vile, cruel little brat.
If it ever happens again, video and send video to police, regardless of her age.
I would be careful about uploading to social media sadly - a good lot of strangers yelling at her would probably teach her a lesson but you can get in trouble for sharing videos of minors.
Vile, cruel little brat.
Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
We call her bratzilla, I have already had a couple of conversations with her and have been accused of bullying her.
I have been with yard owner this afternoon and its been caught albeit not all of it when they looked on thr yards cctv. Yard owner has rung for both parents - they are recently separated which girls mum is using for an excuse for her other bad behaviour.
I have been with yard owner this afternoon and its been caught albeit not all of it when they looked on thr yards cctv. Yard owner has rung for both parents - they are recently separated which girls mum is using for an excuse for her other bad behaviour.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
The child is 13. I agree with filming it, but cannot agree with sharing it online for a child, 'inadvertently' or not. Once it is set loose online, it can't be put back in the box.
As for what OP describes, I think that is cruelty. I would tell mum and YO and also the authorities, backed up with video, if it continues.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
Agreed, I wouldn't share a video of a minor online.
maggiestar
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't film it and put it online - what good does that do to the horse? Nothing. It can also cause a lot of damage to the child. I'd say something there and then. Try to nip it in the bud.
Melody Grey
Well-Known Member
As outlined above, be very wary of filming a child (for whatever reason). I think the yard CCTV is the best place to capture that, not on a device that is yours incase it comes back negatively on you. I totally see your point re: the cruelty needing to be stopped though!
Winters100
Well-Known Member
Oh my. A terrible situation for you GW.
Where I am based I would take the whip off the child and instruct them to untack and put pony back to the box / paddock, but then we have a different attitude to children here. Where I am it is welcomed, and even expected, that if you see children misbehaving you correct them and inform the parents, and parents will always back you up. I certainly would if our children were caught misbehaving, and we once had the situation when our oldest was showing off in the park with his friends and they were riding their bikes in an inconsiderate way. Our neighbor forbade him from riding his bike, so he had to push it home with a flea in his ear, and he got a good talking to and an internet ban when we heard the story. In the UK I would be more wary and would probably just inform YO. I am sorry for you GW, you go to the yard to enjoy your downtime, and do not want to watch such horrid things.
Where I am based I would take the whip off the child and instruct them to untack and put pony back to the box / paddock, but then we have a different attitude to children here. Where I am it is welcomed, and even expected, that if you see children misbehaving you correct them and inform the parents, and parents will always back you up. I certainly would if our children were caught misbehaving, and we once had the situation when our oldest was showing off in the park with his friends and they were riding their bikes in an inconsiderate way. Our neighbor forbade him from riding his bike, so he had to push it home with a flea in his ear, and he got a good talking to and an internet ban when we heard the story. In the UK I would be more wary and would probably just inform YO. I am sorry for you GW, you go to the yard to enjoy your downtime, and do not want to watch such horrid things.