At wits' end, considering electric training collar - opinions?

Sooty

Sooty

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The Dogs Trust is highly opposed to these collars, so yesterday I emailed them this:

'I have read your article on electric training collars with interest, because I am considering getting one and would really value your suggestions as to an alternative.



I have owned dogs for over 30 years, and have never had one that is as impossible to train as my current bitch. She is five years old, and we have owned her since she was eight weeks. We took her to puppy classes and have done everything ‘by the book’. She is a good dog; she obeys simple commands, she won’t touch her food until she is told etc. However, she cannot be let off the lead without the risk of her bolting. We live surrounded by open countryside, and are lucky enough to have local landowners who allow us to walk round the field boundaries. However, the dog’s recall is not 100% reliable, and sometimes, when you call her, she just looks round then she is off. She can be gone for several hours at a time. This is not acceptable, because she may well cause an accident as there are several roads running across the area (a good half mile or more away, but she can cover the ground very fast indeed). We have had her trainer out here to try and succeed where we have failed, but to no avail.



We have trained her with praise, never punishment, and are now faced with the options of keeping her on a lead for the rest of her life (which I consider unacceptable) or to try and train her to actually listen when she is called or whistled by using a shock collar. I understand they are designed for exactly this sort of situation, and are surely a better solution than having a dog roaming round the countryside where it can be a danger to itself or others? The dog in question is a Boxer x Golden Retriever. She is not interested in returning for food, not even cheese. I believe it is very important for a dog to have free running time, but under control. She will run to any other dog she sees and cannot be brought back; this situation is simply not acceptable.



I would be interested to hear what you suggest. And please do not suggest a dog whisperer!'

I have yet to receive a reply from them, and would welcome any input on here.
 
Oh yes - end up with ringing in my ears from the damn thing when she goes off! Particualry bad when the crop is long, because obviously when it is ready to harvest she damages it running through it. It has not gone unremarked upon by local farmers.
 
I actually think that used correctly they are very good training aids for recall. I trained one of my terriers to recall with one, she was a bolter and had typical terrier feigned deafness, none of my usual methods with other terriers had worked, it was used for a short period and 2 years down the line recall is still almost perfect. I still have it but have not needed to use on any subsequent dogs but will do if i feel its needed in the future. I do agree they are a harsh tool used incorrectly and would never as I have seen in the past leave one on my dog and use it as a sole training method but IMO for recall alone they are very effective. BTW I did use it on myself first cos thats only fair....its not that bad, especially on the low settings which was all my dog needed maybe twice in total before was returning on warning beep correctly.
 
I agree with the post above-used correctly and only as a last resort when all other training avenues have been explored and exhausted- they are invaluable.My labradoodle/german shepherd would run away on walks if he considered something more interesting cropped up.He would turn,look at me when called and say yes but..... and be off!Although he always returned after an hour or so,with sheep around it was a risk I could not take.And yes he was loose all day around the yard and had at least an hours walk a day.At my wits end I startecd talking to other local dog owners to find these collars are the best kept secret round here,and everyone feels their dogs have been liberated by them as they are all happily off the lead now.We too only ever used the electric option twice.The collar has not been used for over a year now.
So yes used correctly and never in temper they are an excellent training aid.
 
i think they are v good training aids in such situations - when used responsibly and correctly as stated above
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Thank you for those three positive responses. I feel if the dog's options are (literally!) a short, sharp shock or a lifetime spent never being let off the lead, the former is preferable. We have a large garden from which she cannot escape, but that is not the same as the smells and excitement of a walk. I really believe free running is essential for a dog's wellbeing, both physical and mental, but at the moment it is too big a risk to take.
 
I think the collars are great in the correct hands. They are brilliant as you are not seen as applying the punishment but the safety zone for them to return to. A happy patty person!
Again I used one on my old dog who was a F&M pup so could not get her out in stock.

With her it was shock collar or bullet & I would of shot ehr myself.

2 shocks never looked at stock again.

Never had collar on her ever again!

Saved me shooting dog!
 
I don't have an opinion on the collars I am afraid, but if you are looking for an alternative have you tried a long line? You need a long and lightweight line (a clothes line is ideal) attached to the dog's collar, but light enough she can forget it is there. When you call her and she does not respond, step on the line, then walk all the way to the dog stepping on the line, don't say anything, take her by the collar and reverse back to the place you originally called her from. When you get back there praise and release. You will need to repeat but it does seem to work with some dogs as it gives them the impression that you can control them even when they are far away and free (because the line is light weight) and that they have no otion but to return to you or be returned.

It might also help to play recall games. Try this in your garden, you will need two people, stand a short distance apart and alternate calling her, praising rewarding and releasing for the other person to call. If you can try this before her feed is due (i.e. when she has been hungry for 24 and if necessary 48 hours) she may show more interest in food which can then be used as a reward to re-inforce the idea that the command 'come' means come here by me.

Good luck!
 
In the correct hands, I think the collars can be far more effective than other means. And a definite alternative to her having to be kept on the lead at all times or running off and causing an accident.

My uncles weimeraner (sp) wears one at all times when off the lead. After the initial shock, now once it goes on, she's knows to behave and doesn't wander off far at all without even needing to be shocked (which for a dog who was selectively deaf when otherwise off the lead, is a miracle!)

Good luck with whatever you decide anyway
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(plus, she sounds gorgeous, boxer x retriever, very nice!)
 
We used one on our Rhodesian Ridgeback who did exactly what yours does. He would course hares, end up going for miles, would come back hours later in a right state.
We couldn't give him enough exercise on a lead either.
We were told somebody had seen him on the main road and also on railway lines so we had no choice but to try a collar.

Absolutely fabulous, he has only ever had a couple of zaps off it, after that he heard the warning bleeps and came straight back.
Only used it for a couple of weeks and haven't used it since (about 5 years ago)
The only thing I would say is I would hire one as opposed to buying one as if yours is like ours you won't need to use it again.

To anybody that says they are cruel, well I disagree, I would say that a big dog exercised on a lead everyday instead of running loose is cruel or an accident on a railway line or main road causing carnage is cruel.
Sometimes drastic measures are needed which are kinder in the long run.
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I didn't have an electric collar, but one of the spray ones, which work in the same way (ie, remote control), to stop my dog chasing the horses in the field - he even got kicked, but still didn't stop. The collar was brilliant - he stopped doing it almost immediately. (I went for the spray one as my dog is a complete wussy drama queen and I knew that would be enough!)

Like everyone else says, far better a few short sharp shocks at the appropriate moment than squashed dog, dog causing accident or dog shot for sheep worrying.
 
Oh yes, we have tried a long line, but with her problem it is totally inappropriate. Her recall is 100% in the garden. We do the running between two of us at home and on walks, but she is just not reliable enough to be let off any more - there is too much at stake. She could go without food for days if she is satisfactorily distracted by any passing rabbit, hare, bird, dog...
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When we call her she hears us, because she looks round, then thinks 'naah, think I'll just run this way...' and she's off!
 
This is not meant to be a loaded question in any way at all, but why an electric collar as opposed to a spray one?
 
QR Thank you for the positive comments on the shock collars. I do think one or two sessions would do it; it has to be made more appealing for her to return to us than to run off. I would be keen to try the citronella one, but do not think it would be enough of a distraction to stop her when she is after something - even if it is something in her mind! Barmy mutt...

The dog in question is the gormless one in my sig...
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Can I just say re the long line - this time last year I was doubtful as to whether I would ever be able to let my GSD male off the lead.
Cut to now and his recall is fantastic and I managed to bring him back off a hare last week.
It made him think he was off the lead when he wasn't, constant recalling and not letting him get further than the end of the line, I got to the stage where I could let it drag along the ground, now I do not need it at all.
This is a dog with a very strong prey drive, who did not acknowledge my existance a few months ago.
It can be done!

My only concern with an electric collar is, depending on the personality of the dog, it can make them run further away through fear.
I have never used one, but I know people who have, I have used a pinch collar for a different problem and anyone who wants to call me cruel out of hand can come and explain to me how they would have better dealt with the problem.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Can I just say re the long line - this time last year I was doubtful as to whether I would ever be able to let my GSD male off the lead.
Cut to now and his recall is fantastic and I managed to bring him back off a hare last week.
It made him think he was off the lead when he wasn't, constant recalling and not letting him get further than the end of the line, I got to the stage where I could let it drag along the ground, now I do not need it at all.
This is a dog with a very strong prey drive, who did not acknowledge my existance a few months ago.
It can be done!


[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto this really. It took 5 months of walking for miles with a mad spaniel straining to get off the line, but it did work in the end. However I didn't use it in the way suggested by someone else, Otto had to learn himself that coming back was the easiest option, I never called him back (he had no chance to ignore me then) just stopped and waited for him to come back, it took ALONG time at first
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But eventually he would be heading back to me automatically as he reached the end of the line. Then as he was coming back I would call him.
Otto also has NO interest in food, toys, anything outside the house and has an immensely strong hunting instinct.

The only difference between your dog and Otto is Otto was never running away from me, he was just running around hunting and ignoring my calls. I used to have to rugby tackle him as he flew past
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He is still not 100% perfect, he is still learning to work in close and come back immediately but he is getting there. Another thing I have learnt is when to give up, it goes against what I want to do, but if I call him and he doesn't respond I will call him once more and then ignore him and try again a bit later. IMO it is the key to not teaching a dog to ignore you.

An electric collar would have probably speeded the process up no end, but the main reasons I didn't use one are
- I was afraid of him running away from the pain in a panic, he doesn't react well when he gets a shock from the pig fencing, so it was a real worry with him.
- The cost!!

Also, if you do decide to use one, whether shock or spray,you need to let the dog wear it for a week without using it so the dog doesn't learn to associate the shock with the collar and only behaves when they are wearing it!
 
Have seen both positive and negative responses and the reaction seems to depend on the dogs personalilty, 1 dog ( was already slightly mistrusting in humans ) had a fantastic recall except if he got on a scent when he just buggered off, the collar was only used a couple of times but it made him very very nervy whenever out and the twice he was zapped for going on a scent he ran back to the car which was about as ideal as him going after a scent.
2nd dog kept chasing livestock and as a farm dog was going to be put down as a last ditch attempt they tried a collar, he still goes to chase but you can get into his concentration and now rather than chasing and running blind not listening at all you can call him straight back if he goes to chase. This dog however does have to wear a collar most the time as he is almost too clever for his own good and knows when he hasnt got it on, he has however never had to be zapped again and will always recall on the 1st warning noise.
In the right hands on the right dog they are a great training aid and can be very very effective.
 
The long line is for use in open spaces not the garden, but it does take a while to work and I'm sure it doesn't work for every single dog.

Good luck with whatever you try, dogs not recalling is such a frustrating problem!
 
I've read this post with interest as I am experiencing similar problems with my new dog. I've had her 6 weeks and After her exploits when we were on Anglesey, I just dare'nt let her off the lead except in totally enclosed spaces.
I'm using a long line and it is obvious she really is desperate to run free, but when she does she won't come back at all.
I am working on the training of standing on the line, practising "wait" etc.
There are some small signs of hope as at the Training Field she is beginning to come back sometimes, but it is not consistent.
Someone has suggested I use the shock collar but I am not a fan. I may try the spray one if things don't improve shortly.
 
The thing with the collars is when the dog is doing something wrong. Either shout "NO" or call them but only twice (you call twice just incase they missed the first one) Then you zap them.
When the dog looks wrong after reacting from the shock to see where the hell it came from. There is the dog's Mum saying "Come here then!" & calling them nicely. Plus big fuss when they return. So they do not associate you at all with the shock. But it hits them after they ignore you. So in their eyes when you call them it is in their best interest to return to their soft Mummy who will protect them!

Like I said my girl had it on at 3yrs of age used twice & then never had it or a collar of anytype on her!

I have seen the collar on a number of dogs & not once (even first time used) have I seen a dog bolt off after shocking.
 
we have a lab and a (can you imagine it?) basset cross lurcher!! They were a night mare running off all the time, especially during lambing and we were also at our wits end. Instea of the hand held remote we have the collars which activate when the dogs get near to a burried electric wire. They learn where their boundaries are and only get zapped if they get too close. Now they wear the collars but we don't need to turn the power box on. An absolute godsend and now we can enjoy the dogs.
 
Sooty, it does take bit of managing but once you get the hang of it the long line is pretty easy. It is a bit like lunging, in fact my line is a lunge line!
I have always used them and have used them for tracking with too, with a harness, I have never known a dog to break anything or of any major tangles, you just have to keep your wits about you.
 
The shock collar only interrupts the behaviour, you still have to train the appropriate response to the shock and as has been said all dogs react differently. If you do go down the shock route do use the type that is remotely operated by yourself and keep the dog on a long lead to see how he reacts. You don't want a bolting dog in a blind panic.

I do believe in the right hands and as a last resort they can help but having said that my £150 one has never left it's box as I could not bring myself to use it!
 
Just a small point if anyone is interested: it might be better not to associate a common word like 'no' with a shock as you may find your dog reacting to all sorts of everyday situations. E.g. you say 'no' to a cup of tea and the dog jumps a mile (which is what should happen if the word and the punishment are properly associated). I always have a neutral sound to indicate to the dog 'stop that behaviour whatever it might be' which doesn't mean anything in english and is not likely to be used by anyone in any other context.
 
Don't want to cause too much of a controversy, but shock collars should be banned in this country as they have been in many others. There is no place for them in modern dog training. Most recall problems are started by letting the dog off the lead too soon before a reliable recall is built up, and the running off becomes a habit.

You cannot predict what the fallout will be from using punishment-based training methods, and you may in fact cause your dog to bolt further through fear when the unexpected shock comes. The whole point of the shock collars is that they work through fear caused by pain, and will elicit fearful or aggressive responses. Results of a recent study show that, even when used 'properly', an E-Collar undermines the dog-handler relationship and poisons cues by associating the handler, the cues and the training area with painful experiences. So your dog might be running off, you call it's name. it doesn't respond and then you zap it - you've now associated hearing it's name with being zapped and all of a sudden it's afraid of it's own name, not to mention you.

You'd be much better off buying the 'Really Reliable Recall' dvd that gives you a positive training program to follow.
 
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