At wits end - KS / Feet issue

[Feral]

I am really at my wits end with my just gone 5 year old mare.

Since buying her backed and riding away in September last year, she has not been the easiest - she has always had the hand break on and been reluctant to go forward but always sound (although always had a mechanical type gait which was really hard to tell if this was just due to her been so backwards thinking/not understanding)

She was checked by physic, dentist, saddle fitter - all fine.

I thought she must not understand what was been asked and she was sent away for 7 weeks schooling in November where they did not seem to find any issues with her - she was kept in for the 7 weeks as no turnout. They said she was a bit behind the leg at times and laid back but I saw her been worked in walk, trot, canter and I travelled twice to see and ride her before she came back home where I found her much better, just a tad lazy to get initially going.

Got her home in January and throughout January we seemed to get somewhere, did a couple of showing clinics and had lessons at home, although when first starting the sessions she was lazy and reluctant, as soon as she was working forwardly from behind the hand break came off and she felt amazing.

She then developed hives at the end of January and had to have 3-4 weeks off- since bringing her back into work end February I have not been able to get her back to where she was.
She was so reluctant to go forward under saddle and on her forehand that she tripped onto her knees with me in the school.
Tried to hack her out and she was not much better at all- even if other horses left her she just seemed to not care!

On the lunge I could chase her forward and get some nice work out of her but in April she even seemed 'off' on the lunge and not moving forward comfortably.

I tested her for PSSM as she became tight across her quarters around March/April time and a lot of signs fit but this came back negative.

Had the below carried out -

- PSSM 1 test - negative
- Cushing and Ems - both fine and well within normal ranges (vet suggested this as she comes across extremely pottery lunged on a hard surface)
- Xrays on all four feet- hinds are fine - fronts showed de-rotation of both pedal bones - broken backed - farrier has looked and said they are not the worst he has seen but could definitely be causing the issue. she is onto her second set of 'special shoes' and is been seen every 4-5 weeks
- X-rays of spine show two of her vertebra (just where back of saddle sits) much closer than the rest and vet has suggested an injection in this area but to start with feet first.

As we are 7 weeks into remedial shoeing I tried lunging her last night and she is the worst I have seen her on the lunge.
Uncomfortable, lame looking, not moving from the shoulder at all and very reluctant, head in the air, tight across her back.

She is booked in for the injection on Thursday as we may see quicker results with the injection if it is linked to KS.
If not, I may have to wait until Spring time for her feet to correct to find out if that is the issue :-( :-( :-(

May not even be either of those two things either!!

Has anyone had much experience with KS and does any of this sound as though thats what it could be?
She has been a gem under saddle and other than not been able to go forward there has been no bucking, rearing etc.

She is sometimes explosive in the field randomly- like calm 99% of the time but then can just belt off and buck/bronk etc and looks perfectly fine!!
Rest of the time she resembles a seaside donkey.

I have lunging videos from January where she is literally a different horse to now! she moves freely and looks amazing compared to how she is now.

Help!!

sorry for the long post.

 

[ester]

What is she? would a pre/post exercise check or muscle biopsy help to rule out a PSSM/EPSM type cause. It seems the most likely from your description.

How has farrier shod the hinds?

 

[ycbm]

A PSSM 1 negative test did not rule out PSSM, which has several variants lumped as type 2. Have you tried changing her diet? Many PSSM horses will be worse in summer when getting grass sugars and a lot of the behaviour you're describing fits.

I would try her on a very high dose of natural vitamin E and see what happens.
.

 

[ihatework]

Could be more than one thing going on and your focus is on a red herring. Or it might not.

It’s frustrating.

All you can do is act in a stepwise logical fashion to rule things in/out.

Injecting the spine makes sense. It’s cheap and focused so will tick off one box.

Ive seen spine & front feet before. It’s a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Sore front feet affects posture that can exacerbate KS. Sore back affects locomotion that can change how they move/balance and how the feet grow.

 

[Feral]

What is she? would a pre/post exercise check or muscle biopsy help to rule out a PSSM/EPSM type cause. It seems the most likely from your description.

How has farrier shod the hinds?

She is a native type mare - has some fell in her. She is 14.2 and is probably a little lighter set than a fell.

She is not constantly tight across her quarters (I have a feeling she could have been injured April time due to some craziness running about in a wood chip pen and slipping over) Phys-io has been last week and said there was some tightness across her left hind quarter but fine on right.

She is not shod on her hinds at all, X-rays showed everything is where is should be and she looks ok on her hind end most of the time.
It is her front end mainly that does not look right.

My vet was not taken by the idea of PSSM at all - he thinks whatever it is is coming from her back and thinks the injection might be the key.
He is also pushing for a bone scan which I'm reluctant to do until we have fully explored the two issues we have found already.

I stupidly did not insure her :-( :-( :-(

 

[Melody Grey]

2 things that occur to me:
- one set of remedial shoes might not address this- It might come better with time and progressive shoeings.
-scope for ulcers!

my horse had SI pain which has been medicated and is being remedially shod on all 4- he had massive rotation and a horrendous case of infected gd 4 ulcers ....but we’re making progress!

 

[Feral]

A PSSM 1 negative test did not rule out PSSM, which has several variants lumped as type 2. Have you tried changing her diet? Many PSSM horses will be worse in summer when getting grass sugars and a lot of the behaviour you're describing fits.

I would try her on a very high dose of natural vitamin E and see what happens.
.

She has been on a very high does of vitamin E- I bought the equimins stuff in April after been convinced myself that it could be a variant of pss-m
She was also off grass for around 8 weeks in a wood chip pen on a very very strict diet of hay mixed with straw in order to lose weight.
She lost the weight lovely but absolutely no change ridden wise and seemed to just get more lame.

She was lame in both front legs (only when ridden) in June when I decided to get the X-rays.
She trotted up sound fine and both vet and pysi-o thought she was fine with no obvious pain until they saw her ridden.

 

[ester]

Ah I missread which hooves had the de-rotation, so which are the special shoes on in front?

 

[ester]

I ask because mine had flat pedal bones, completely resolved out of shoes (not resolved previously in shoes).

 

[Feral]

2 things that occur to me:
- one set of remedial shoes might not address this- It might come better with time and progressive shoeings.
-scope for ulcers!

my horse had SI pain which has been medicated and is being remedially shod on all 4- he had massive rotation and a horrendous case of infected gd 4 ulcers ....but we’re making progress!

Yes, I am quite willing to wait and turn her away until spring if the feet are the issue. she does not have any type of wedge on, my farrier has put a shoe on which will support the foot without restricting the growth but he has said it will take time.
What I don't want is to be spending a ridiculous amount on shoes every 5 weeks until March for their to be absolutely no change which is why I am thinking of the injection now in order to rule her spine issue out.

Ulcers have also crossed my mind too although she does not present as a horse with ulcers at all but initially when she was sound I did think this.

 

[Feral]

I ask because mine had flat pedal bones, completely resolved out of shoes (not resolved previously in shoes).

Hi, yes, hers are flat too. Not bad enough to be pointing the wrong way if that makes sense.

The right fore is totally flat
The left fore is better and does have a better angle on it and has improved already even after 7 weeks (I had her x-rayed again last week)
Right is showing no improvement but I get its very early days

 

[Melody Grey]

Yes, I am quite willing to wait and turn her away until spring if the feet are the issue. she does not have any type of wedge on, my farrier has put a shoe on which will support the foot without restricting the growth but he has said it will take time.
What I don't want is to be spending a ridiculous amount on shoes every 5 weeks until March for their to be absolutely no change which is why I am thinking of the injection now in order to rule her spine issue out.

Ulcers have also crossed my mind too although she does not present as a horse with ulcers at all but initially when he was sound I did think this.

I feel your pain with the cost of the remedial shoeing! I have moved away from the remedial farrier to my usual farrier who shoes using normal shoes set back as advised by the remedial farrier (it that makes sense?!) that might be a more economical option.

unfortunately I’ve had numerous horses which have developed pain related ulcers- not going forward and explosive moments are definitely indicators in my experience. I was quoted £300 for a mobile scope yesterday for a follow up for mine, so it might be worth considering? The bigger problem is if she has them and the cost of treatment.

 

[Feral]

Could be more than one thing going on and your focus is on a red herring. Or it might not.

It’s frustrating.

All you can do is act in a stepwise logical fashion to rule things in/out.

Injecting the spine makes sense. It’s cheap and focused so will tick off one box.

Ive seen spine & front feet before. It’s a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Sore front feet affects posture that can exacerbate KS. Sore back affects locomotion that can change how they move/balance and how the feet grow.

Thank you for this as this is exactly my understanding and at first I thought it was the feet that could have caused the KS as you can tell she is overcompensating on something by the way she is moving.

I was a bit unsure if it could be the back causing how the feet would grow but if this is the case I am literally keeping everything crossed that I will see some improvement from the injection!!!!

 

[Frumpoon]

Remedial shoeing was the absolute worst thing I ever did for my boy

I'll never do it again

The feet grow how they grow and all the muscles, bones and ligaments further up the leg have been growing around the shape of the foot since birth

If I had my boy again i'd have left his feet with normal shoes or even gritted my teeth and gone without if he could have stood it without pain or soreness

 

[Feral]

Remedial shoeing was the absolute worst thing I ever did for my boy

I'll never do it again

The feet grow how they grow and all the muscles, bones and ligaments further up the leg have been growing around the shape of the foot since birth

If I had my boy again i'd have left his feet with normal shoes or even gritted my teeth and gone without if he could have stood it without pain or soreness

I really did not want shoes on her in the first place.
She was barefoot when all this started with outwardly, no signs of issues as she has 'good feet'
I got shoes on her in April as she became more reluctant to walk over stoney ground and I suppose it was the first port of call to try her in shoes to see if she felt more comfortable.

 

[ester]

So still, what shoes are we talking about?

 

[Feral]

So still, what shoes are we talking about?

She has spider plates on currently

 

[Frumpoon]

Just as she's a pony be really careful about her management with the steroid jab - keep her off grass and soak hay for a few days afterwards

 

[SEL]

Hmmm sounds very PSSM'y to me.

What are you feeding and how much grazing? Are you in a low selenium or iodine area with your soil (local farmers tend to know)

 

[ester]

would your farrier consider using these?

http://www.equinefootclinic.co.uk/EFC_Pad.html

 

[CanteringCarrot]

My personal experiences (not all with my personal horses) with the "handbrake on" feeling have been caused by a few things:

PSSM
Respiratory issues
Suspensory issues - especially this, particularly hind
Saddle fit - not all saddle fitters are great at what they do and not all horses "go by the book"
Thin soles
Lyme disease
Poor training - but I don't think that is a factor here

Remedial shoeing and shoes aren't the devil. Crap farriers are.
I have a horse in a special shoeing situation at the moment with a newer farrier and he is doing excellent. So much better than ever before. The key is the farrier.

 

[BBP]

No idea if this is any help but my horse has been in boots and pads for turnout recently and it has made a big difference to his movement and posture. These photos are two weeks apart, wearing the boots and pads 23/7 in front. You can see in the photo with the orange wraps that his forelimbs are contracted along the back, down the tendons, back of the knee and from the shoulder and he is landing toe first in a very stabbing stride. The other photo is two weeks later and you can already see the stride has extended, the front tendons are starting to decontract and he is starting to move towards a more flat/heel first landing. The pads are replicating a decent digital cushion, absorbing some of the shock, and encouraging him to land better with each stride, thereby developing his own heel and digital cushion better. This is just two weeks and prior to any treatment for other issues. There is more decontraction to come. He also has a sore back and damage to his right hind proximal suspensory, but it is helping me to help him to use his body better which should give him a better chance of improving the suspensory.

 

[paddy555]

of the things suggested you have not ruled out PSSM 2 which would need a muscle biopsy however in view of the front feet problem that would be down my list
I don't think you have ruled out Cushings. A neg. test doesn't mean neg. My haflinger sounds a bit like your situation. He would go over anything at 4 and was hard to stop, by 5 he could hardly move and at 6 he got laminitis.

He was cushings tested at 12, negative. Tested a couple of weeks later and very negative. I insisted on a prascend trial and he was a different horse. So false tests do happen and I think they happen with younger horses who don't show up positive on the test. Perhaps they are not far enough on in the disease.
I would ask your vet for a TRH test.

If this is a steroid injection then I would try and rule the cushings out first but I would have the X rays sent to a specialist KS vet and ask for his opinion. I appreciate he is not insured but it may be cheaper to get a specialist opinion than to keep going through lots of suggestions.

personally I would keep the fronts barefoot but as he is struggling I would use padded boots and find a farrier who specialises in barefoot rehab cases who will work with your vet.

 

[Nudibranch]

Just to add possibly more ideas into the mix, which may not be helpful, I had a horse with very similar symptoms. We were never 100% sure in the end what all the issues were, but we found neck, hock and SI and then stopped looking because he just wasn't going to come right. I knew when he was 18 months something was off, and spent 6 years trying to sort it. He grew the most ridiculous flat footed, underrun fronts which just couldn't be sorted either.
What I do know is I was convinced for a long time it was a pssm variant. He ticked every single box for type 2. Yet in the end it was multi issue orthopaedics. All I'm trying to point out in a long winded fashion is that there can be many possibilities and many red herrings....I think you know that already though. Good luck, I hope you find something easily fixable.

 

[ponyparty]

would your farrier consider using these?

http://www.equinefootclinic.co.uk/EFC_Pad.html

Not wanting to derail the thread but THANK YOU for posting this Ester! I have been trying to find this website for days, was going to do a post but couldn’t even think how to word what I was looking for. I’ve been following this guy (I think it’s a guy anyway) on FB https://www.facebook.com/hoofscanandhoofcarecentre/ and finding it all very interesting. I knew that similar shoes existed in the UK but couldn’t for the life of me remember what they were called, it’s been soooo annoying!

OP, i have nothing to add that hasn’t already been said really. I wish you all the best in getting to the bottom of the issue.

 

[ester]

lol I often forget the exacts for it and hope my google terms throw it up.

Ihatework used them on her mare who was struggling bare.

Realistically to correct an NPA the soft tissue in the back of hoof needs to be larger/stronger to do so. I can't see how immobilisng the hoof with a bar shoe/spider plate is going to achieve that well.
As I have said previously, we got the hoof to look better in bar shoes but it wasn't functionally sound.

 

[Feral]

Thank you for all of your advice everyone.
She is booked in to go and see the vet on Thursday for the steroid injection..... I am aware of the laminitis risk with this injection and she has been in a bare paddock/woodchip area for one week now and will do the same when she gets home on Thursday.

I am pinning a lot of hopes that I will see some improvement after the injection otherwise we have a long wait until spring to see if the next 6-7 months of 5 weekly farrier visits will help!

 

[Goldenstar]

The steroid jab is a good call it’s what I would do .
I would do a muscle biopsy as well if it brings up nothing that something you rule out
If you can find a ACPAT trained physio with an interesting in rehab work then this would be a good investment .
I think the type of crowding you describe is often secondary to pain else where .
Has she had any form of hind Limb work up ?
If she where mine I would be getting some nerve blocking done if you don’t get a super result from the steroid .

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Hmmm sounds very PSSM'y to me.

I thought exact the same..

Hopefully your see some improvement with a steriod.

 

[Muddywellies]

I'm surprised you haven't scoped for ulcers yet. That's always my first port of call and tummy pain can cause some interesting non-textbook behaviours. Also consider hind gut which can be tricky.