At Wit's End...

[RichardRider]

I have a 20 year old Selle Francais who has never competed, having had a pretty good existence hacking out and occaisonally a bit or work on the flat...He has been of and on again lame in front right leg now for over three years. I even gave him a brake of over a year with no shoes... Vets have done stress tests, and two of them have indicated arthritis in the shoulder, but never being quite sure? When on a daily dose of Bute he's fine to do a weekly long reined hack out with friends, even trotting and a canter here and there. What is funny though(to me anyway, replace funny with odd,) is he is a bit lame on hard surfaces, when trotting, and EXTREMELY LAME when going into the soft sand of any outdoor school...

Farrier has done hoof tests with the special pliars, etc. as well...

At 64, I am sort of looking for another horse, but when I feed mornings and watch him tearing across his paddock, jumping and changing leads like a youngster, it just kills me to think of another horse(especially at my age,) to replace him; plus he's a stunner and big(1m78) and very "fitted" for me at 6'2''...I'm sick and I just feel, though my French is perfect. that if I hinted/indicated/related something to the vet, he might have a "lighbulb" moment and suggest something other than Bute...Perhaps, in fairness to vet(s) they feel whatever remedy much to onerous for someone who doesn't compete?

Would love some of your thoughts if you have the time...The, more lame on soft surface, than on an asphalt road really stumps me....

...richard

 

[Goldenstar]

Lame on the soft not the hard usually indicates ligament / tendon soft tissue issue .
If you can't find anything I would guess it's in the foot .

 

[Lanky Loll]

Lame on the soft not the hard usually indicates ligament / tendon soft tissue issue .
If you can't find anything I would guess it's in the foot .

I agree can you get him scanned?

 

[applecart14]

Sounds to me like you need to bite the bullet and get a proper lameness investigation. Being on/off lame on a leg for three years is not good. Lame on hard ground/road surface is normally joints and as Goldenstar points out, on a soft surface is normally muscular or ligament damage. If he is arthritic in the shoulder this will show on a decent xray machine and you can then go from there.

Even a few flexion tests or nerve blocks will show you the area of the horse which is causing problems to allowed the problem to be narrowed down to a particular limb/area of the body. Good luck. It may cost you a couple of hundred pounds in the short term, but will be worth it long term. You can't leave a horse with a lameness indefinetely as this will cause further problems down the road when he starts to over compensate in other areas.

 

[RichardRider]

Thanks. The flexion tests done here showed nothing, both times. I've been scouring the net and YouTube and have seen some pretty thorough examples of palpitation examinations of the leg, looking for tendon issues, and the vets here have never done this to such a degree. I would LOVE to get some xrays but it takes a full on horse lorry(I mean the big ones,) for my horse to climb into anything. An English Mate of mine(who had the lorry and took he and I on at his place for three months), and quite a fine rider and instuctor, used to say that he was "bridle lame," and knew how to play me. This is no longer the case, even he, if he were still in France, would admit that today. I know we can xray lower regions of the leg but not sure of shoulder(if in case it's actually that.)

Thank you all for your input....rr

 

[stencilface]

I would also consider nerve blocking to see if you can pin point the area. Also you could post photos of his leg and foot confo on here for everyone to have a squiz at? Long term issue with no worsening could suggest lower limb/foot.

 

[RichardRider]

I would also consider nerve blocking to see if you can pin point the area. Also you could post photos of his leg and foot confo on here for everyone to have a squiz at? Long term issue with no worsening could suggest lower limb/foot.

I can, if Jennbags post them(I'm the only computer stupid American living on the planet,) but his feet and legs look great. Nothing is swollen or one hoof warmer than the other. I would love to do the nerve blocking...If he is MUCH better when living on Bute, he must have something bothering him which isn't "too" mechinical, is that correct?

 

[Lanky Loll]

Thanks. The flexion tests done here showed nothing, both times. I've been scouring the net and YouTube and have seen some pretty thorough examples of palpitation examinations of the leg, looking for tendon issues, and the vets here have never done this to such a degree. I would LOVE to get some xrays but it takes a full on horse lorry(I mean the big ones,) for my horse to climb into anything. An English Mate of mine(who had the lorry and took he and I on at his place for three months), and quite a fine rider and instuctor, used to say that he was "bridle lame," and knew how to play me. This is no longer the case, even he, if he were still in France, would admit that today. I know we can xray lower regions of the leg but not sure of shoulder(if in case it's actually that.)

Thank you all for your input....rr

I take it none of the local vets have a portable kit? Ours has one in the back of his estate car so no need to travel (scan and x-ray). Shoulder you could scan more easily than x-ray I believe.
Nerve block is a great idea as at least then you can localise the pain.

 

[stencilface]

Possibly?

I only say about feet and legs as I though my horse had ok confo, turns out when I posted on here he had quite a few less than ideal aspects in his feet, and he had ddft damage in both of them.

 

[RichardRider]

Well, I've had my horse now almost 15 years and he did have a problem with tripping after a jump(which is why I don't jump anymore,) after three trips to emergency. I just returned to emergency but that wasn't him,lol. I'm sure the vets are equiped. I had it done 23 years ago when purchasing another horse. I didn't xray Incarna(his name,) since my instructor sold him to me(I've done just about EVERYTHING one should NOT do when purchasing a horse, lol.) I suppose, due to the cost, I should have "arranged" for them to do this instead of just showing up, doing the flection tests, trotting back and forth etc. This time I need to block, first the vet....

 

[Goldenstar]

I would certainly block out the whole foot and see what happens before trying anything more complicated .

 

[RichardRider]

Possibly?

I only say about feet and legs as I though my horse had ok confo, turns out when I posted on here he had quite a few less than ideal aspects in his feet, and he had ddft damage in both of them.

Do you ever post a reply and then, minutes later, you ask yourself, why did you say that? Anyway, while trying to herd chickens I remembered why I brought up the fact that I had Incarna for over 15 years...It was with regard to your comment about confirmation. Was thinking it was a little late, lol.

Darned last chicken WOULD NOT go in the darned chicken coop...rr

 

[RichardRider]

I would certainly block out the whole foot and see what happens before trying anything more complicated .

All suggestions will be hopefully(and convincingly,) translated into French...

 

[stencilface]

Then we need pics! And one of the hoof/leg experts on here will no doubt tell you if they're ok or not

I was always told by my farrier that my horse had great feet (ie they kept shoes on!) Turns out the weren't so fab after all lol

 

[RichardRider]

Then we need pics! And one of the hoof/leg experts on here will no doubt tell you if they're ok or not

I was always told by my farrier that my horse had great feet (ie they kept shoes on!) Turns out the weren't so fab after all lol

Ok, tomorrow will take some and then(gulp) ask Jenn and Catembi to post them for me...a demain...rr

 

[ycbm]

Nerve blocks are a must. But if they show nothing, and just to confuse things, I had a horse with intermittent mild foreleg lameness that turned out to be caused by a sacroiliac strain, and another with a big deviation in limb flight in one front leg that disappeared once operated on for kissing spines, so it's not always the leg!

And if it is the foot, field rest without shoes is not sufficient to restore soundness to a lot of horses with navicular issues, they need work to sort out the feet.

I hope you get an answer.

 

[RichardRider]

Nerve blocks are a must. But if they show nothing, and just to confuse things, I had a horse with intermittent mild foreleg lameness that turned out to be caused by a sacroiliac strain, and another with a big deviation in limb flight in one front leg that disappeared once operated on for kissing spines, so it's not always the leg!

And if it is the foot, field rest without shoes is not sufficient to restore soundness to a lot of horses with navicular issues, they need work to sort out the feet.

I hope you get an answer.

I had a Equine Kinotherapist work him over some years ago as well. Tomorrow pictures...Now I'm worried because he's out of shape and has lost his "top line," as they say...Can I send a ten year old photo, lol? Amateur Horse Owners, I guess we're all alike...rr

 

[RichardRider]

Wait a minute!!!! This, of course isn't Incarna, but looks just about EXACTLY as he would, if filmed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0s0zaBDug8

He even resembles this horse...rr

 

[ycbm]

Horse is dropping his right hip and has unequal use of the right side of the bum and the right hind leg. It's lame behind.

It looks exactly like my sacroiliac horse did.

Has Incarna ever sat down suddenly that you know of - before this started?

Does he hold his tail out to one side?

 

[RichardRider]

no...I guess this isn't the same thing...It just seemed so weird to click on a Youtube window, and see a horse so similar to mine and having a problem with lameness...I clicked,copied and pasted a little too quick...rr

 

[ycbm]

It looks a front foot head nod though Richard. The bum problem isn't screaming out as being the issue.

 

[stencilface]

Aha, my horse this summer following 12 weeks rehab at Rockley had intermittent lameness in front. I was a bit confused! Had a trimmer out to check his feet. The trimmer didn't touch his feet, but did video in slow motion from front and behind which highlighted his action behind where his off hind was crossing over into the middle. He prodded a bit and said likely that an issue in the sacro was causing the lameness in front. Now this horse has been seen by vets, physios and whoever else since 2013 when I took his shoes off, when he started to get a flare on the inside if his off hind foot.

The physio always picked up sore sacro, and neck from him pulling rather than pushing himself, but never picked up his odd action. Following the trimmers visit I then started having in hand lessons to straighten him, bought a new better fitted saddle. 3 months later he's sound, if ridden/worked properly and within weeks of starting the straightness work the flare on his foot broke off, suggesting he was now walking straighter.

Sorry that's so long! Just my experience of a well vetted horse but one fresh pair of eyes I think spotted the crux of probably many of our issues.

 

[RichardRider]

Aha, my horse this summer following 12 weeks rehab at Rockley had intermittent lameness in front. I was a bit confused! Had a trimmer out to check his feet. The trimmer didn't touch his feet, but did video in slow motion from front and behind which highlighted his action behind where his off hind was crossing over into the middle. He prodded a bit and said likely that an issue in the sacro was causing the lameness in front. Now this horse has been seen by vets, physios and whoever else since 2013 when I took his shoes off, when he started to get a flare on the inside if his off hind foot.

The physio always picked up sore sacro, and neck from him pulling rather than pushing himself, but never picked up his odd action. Following the trimmers visit I then started having in hand lessons to straighten him, bought a new better fitted saddle. 3 months later he's sound, if ridden/worked properly and within weeks of starting the straightness work the flare on his foot broke off, suggesting he was now walking straighter.

Sorry that's so long! Just my experience of a well vetted horse but one fresh pair of eyes I think spotted the crux of probably many of our issues.

But very interesting! But, your horse was also lame without the saddle?

 

[stencilface]

Yes he was, but I had a treeless saddle that I had fitted, and a medium albion that I had fitted. New saddke fitter measured him as an extra wide and said that pressure from treeless had perhaps accentuated the pressure on his sacro. Which meant he changed his action to compensate for pain and it went on so long his muscle memory just continued doing it. If you push your horse forwards and really through does it improve things? When I trialled my saddle he was lame in trot, but with more walk work he became sound as he was using himself properly behind.
This might not be your problem at all, but I was stumped with mine, and fingers crossed I feel like I'm on the road to enlightenment, hopefully!

 

[Echo Bravo]

Just invite them over for a weeks holiday Richard, that way it will get your horse sorted.

 

[RichardRider]

Stencilface, sooo many things sound the same! It's crazy though. I just started a VERY COMPLICATED video series on the economy and deflationary tendencies, leading to inflationary downfall...And(why did I start this,) I'm going to have to wait till tomorrow and photos and vet appointment for the time being...I already have a headache from the chickens and now I'm trying to understand this???

Stupid old man....Speak with you tomorrow...cheers...rr

 

[ironhorse]

Richard - I just wonder about your vet, whether it is a communication issue or the quality of the vet practice?
I have heard some terrifying things about vets in the south of France from posts on HHO!
Although it can be a costly process, a good equine vet in the UK would suggest a full lameness workup for a condition like this - x rays, nerve blocks and possibly an MRI scan for unexplained ligament damage, although this usually has to be done at a specialist equine veterinary hospital.
Given that you are in a part of France renowned for its racing yards and studs, is it worth asking around to find a vet who is really experienced in lameness diagnosis.

 

[JennBags]

This is a pic that RR has sent over (although I suspect the experts are going to need one more of the leg/feet from different angles, stood up straight and without the gate in the way!).

 

[RichardRider]

Richard - I just wonder about your vet, whether it is a communication issue or the quality of the vet practice?
I have heard some terrifying things about vets in the south of France from posts on HHO!
Although it can be a costly process, a good equine vet in the UK would suggest a full lameness workup for a condition like this - x rays, nerve blocks and possibly an MRI scan for unexplained ligament damage, although this usually has to be done at a specialist equine veterinary hospital.
Given that you are in a part of France renowned for its racing yards and studs, is it worth asking around to find a vet who is really experienced in lameness diagnosis.

Thanks ironhorse(and Jenn for having posted photo.) The vet who does nearly only TBs(and Irishman,) was the vet who said he felt it was the shoulder and that my horse had had this condition since a very young age. He didn't do an extensive check-up, saying what his clinique charged(even for a visit on the fly as was that one,) was out of this world expensive for an amateur rider. He refused any payment. The problem is ME. I should have had the horse vetted before the purchase, blindly believing my instructor(who bred the horse.) Now, thanks to all of you and many hours of scouring the net, the next vet visit will be a thorough one.

Thanks again Jenn...rr(too bad image of Archiduke is a poor one. At 30 he still hacks out and is the 'most interested' of the two horses, when mares ride by...We all should age so well...lol)

 

[JennBags]

This is another pic