attitude in young horses, nature or nurture?

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avthechav

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An earlier post got me thinking.. Do you think that character/ behavoural traits in young horses are down to experience or their natural attitude. I personally think that some horses have natural tendencies towards some behaviours and these are accentuated by their experiences.
Having only really experienced Av as my only green horse I believe that her racehorse training has a lot to do with her 'backward' tendencies (as I was told that she was usually worked at the back of the string) but interestingly her siblings also do similar things in the same situations, i.e. refusing to go in front if someone stops, is this due to them having the same type of early training or their genes? On the other hand a friend's youngster is very willing to try anything once she gets what she has to do- is this due to consistent training and handling or is it her natural attitude?
I have no real experience of any other youngsters and does anyone have any opinions on this? Can a horse be born naughty or is it something it learns?
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nature.
i bred 2 full brothers, out of my first event mare, by Criminal Law, 2 yrs apart. they were like peas out of a pod. the first one was a fighter from the moment he first stood. that attitude stayed with him for life, he was a git to back, stayed sharp and quite tricky, sensitive.
the other was weaker and needed some help when he first stood. he was easier for his whole life, and easypeasy to back, never gave me a moment's worry (never had me off either in his whole life!)
the first one wasn't the first i'd bred or backed, either....
 
...Thats very interesting Kerilli, so in that case when breeding do people look at behavioural characteristics and attitude in as much depth as the conformation. Were either of your brothers similar in attitude to the dam or sire?
 
Nature then nurture. I am in no way an expert in young horses but have seen a few backed while growing up, mainly TB for racing. Quite a few, for some reason, with the same beading that were all b***ards to back and though out most of their life (but good enough racehorses) one still drops his 'amature' owner - who also rides him in races - with such regularity that his wife puts the kettle on when Charlie comes back from the gallops and her husband will appear by the time the Tea is made
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but he is good at the job he was taught to do and looks after him well on the race track.
I have had babies that have been totally easy from day one with the most brilliant attitude, my OH had his first ever canter on Minnie when she was a 4yr old and I do think in the long run that good 'brains' will help you, Minnie has all ways been sensible and hard working, which has meant she has come out and jumped 8 double clears this season and never put a foot wrong and I cant see her ever being naughty.
On the other hand I have just been very slowly backing a 4yr old mare who has never been badly treated and is basically a nice person but is really really sharp and sensitive, by nature, and I suppose if done badly she would quickly be a huge problem, she has a huge tendiencey to over react to her feelings, she is a react think person not a think react person.
Not sure how well I have explained that, I think that, like people, horse are borne with their own personality which we then have to nurture ........
 
definitely a good dose of Nature - the comments are always the same when refering to my racehorses siblings, all really late maturing and quote "get a bit hot under the collar"!! But would have another.....!! definitely the same with humans too, genes are scary things!
 
I agree nature. I am an amateur rider and out of the horses I have had from youngsters some have been very easy and naturally brave, others haven't. My horses have been brought up in the same environment and exposed to the same situations, some have looked at a new challenge as exciting/interesting others see it as something to avoid!! However, thats not to say that a professional rider wouldn't be able to assist a horse in changing its mindset, and I'm sure a brave rider can assist a backwards thinking horse and a nervous rider may well increase it's backwardness! I also think that manners etc can be taught, but how a horse reacts to and, more importantly, wants to learn such lessons I think is an inbred trait.
 
I have two youngsters brought up in the same way with completely different attitudes. The one hardly gets handled and you could bring her out of the field anytime, no problem.
The other was a nightmare (reared up every time she was taken from the herd) for some time but we handled her every day until she understood what was being asked of her. Now she is absolutely fine, good as gold..
 
i would say it is mostly nature with a dose of nurture thrown in.

Millie (now 5) was a cow of a foal, very independent and confident and had her own opinions on everything... she is still the same now! behaviour is marginally better as she has been drilled so much about how to behave.
she is as brave as a lion xc though and very confident at events.

Ellie (now 4) was a lovely, sweet, quiet foal who would do anything you ask. she stayed that way and was sold this summer after being a doddle to do everything with.

Vinnie (now 3) was a very timid, shy foal who hated to be touched and would always be at the back of the stable.
he is still a little timid with new people but he is brimming with confidence if i am around and is a thoroughly nice boy to do everything with... very respectful of your space.

they have all been brought up and educated in the same way but have all turned out very differently because horses have their own little personalities and quirks the same way humans do.
 
We have had hundreds of horses through our yards over the years and it I would say it is a good miture of both. Some have sometimes needed a very strong hand and some have sometimes needed a very gentle hand and all have improved (to some degree) with a bit of commonsense handling.

Parents should beof both.
told that children are the same, some will need love and some will need a kick in the backside. None need a constant
 
avthechav, i don't know about the sire's temp, the sharp one could have taken after dad! the other one prob did take after mum, she was a lovely sweet generous thing. it just impressed me that their lifelong temperaments showed up clearly in literally the first hour after birth... the first one was the only foal i've ever seen to manage to get up first time and not fall over once, he somehow stuck a leg out every time he wobbled and just REFUSED to fall over, very impressive!
btw, a friend of mine bred quite a few from 1 mare, 2 of which by the same sire, and those 2 were both windsuckers and crib-biters, even though their siblings and their parents weren't, it was just that particular mix. very interesting.
she has a 6 yr old now out of my old Advanced mare and it is spooky how many habits it has which are just like its mother's, even to really idiosyncratic things such as sometimes veering quite violently to the right in the air over jumps, which i had always thought was something physical with the mare.
i know that nurture has a huge effect later, but i think their basic attitude to the world is pretty innate.
 
Such an interesting debate/thought with this thread
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My brother was kind enough to be given an aged advanced event horse in jrns, then the following year we bought its 5yr old full brother to bring up through the ranks. Both had very similar easy going, forward thinking attitudes, with the young horse being prone to spooking and 360 degree turns quite often, and both stable walked constantly and weaved!!

We also had two full brothers in our early working hunter days to break in: one was very easy, bold thinker, the other a complete nappy chicken who to date is the only unbreakable horse we've ever had!

So I can see both sides of the argument!
That saying, we are lucky enough to have 5 xc courses behind our stables and acres of happy hacking ground, and apart from that one nappy baby, everything always went out of the yard, ears pricked knowing it was going down through the water and off on adventures. That along with my bro's exceptionally (grrrrr!) light hands and forward riding, always encouraged horses to go forward and never think backwardly. So positive, nurturing riding early on in a horses' career I believe definitely does set the horse up correctly for whatever it encounters
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both id say.
ive had 2 foals from 2 mares. 1 i bred, the other my friend bred.
the 1 I bred from my mare (mares 1st foal) has been a star since day she landed on the stable floor. From day 1 shes been easy to handle, not scared, doesnt stress when shes on her own, very nosey and fearless - more of a people person than herd. you could tie her at the side of the box at a competition and leave her all day knowing shed still be there when you got back - exactly like her mother. shes taking backing in her stride.

the 1 my friend bred out of her mare was totaly different, even though theyve had the same handling etc. From the day she landed, she was timid, would hide in the stable, not helped by her dam protecting her (mares 1st foal). as shes grown up shes got an attitude just like her mothers, however she isnt dangerous or want to kill everyone that ventures near her, she just pulls faces and threatens if they come too close - very moody cow. She gets very stressed, hates leaving the herd and will break away if tied up on her own away from them. However she was a doddle to break, at 17.1hh think along lines of dope on a rope
 
Really interesting thread. We now have our first very own youngster, having been around and helped with several in the past. He's been well handled by previous owner since birth, always stabled overnight so totally used to being worked with. So I think a lot of his easy attitude is to do with that 'nurture' element. However I think he was definately born easygoing! I am in touch with his mum's current owner though and he has deinately inherited certain traits - both complete gits for the vet for example!
He's so good, 99% of the time you would never believe he is only 3, and has barely put a foot wrong throughout the backing process (well, the odd 'silly' day but nothing major) and yet I have friends with much older horses (notably a 14 year old ISH mare!) who is much more badly behaved....she is definately a 'naughty by nature' one!
 
The nature Vs Nuture argument in horses would be the same as in people- where they are doing ongoing experiments on thousands of identical twins to see wether it is genetics or environment that shapes the people that they become. Evironmental influences weigh heavily in most cases. Genetics are important as well but largely influence health issues which then influence mental issues.

With racehorses you do see a vast number of offpspring by the same sire and the similarities in temperment and looks are absolutely uncanny. For example a lot of racing people are so fed up with Fantastic light offspring, as they simply do NOT try one ounce even tho they have loads of ability. Then there is ( I think) Unbridled/ unbridled Song's- so many of them seem to break down by the age of 3/4 yet he is still one of the top sires so he is producing ability and good attitude for 2/3 year olds winning, but he is not producing soundness. There are so many simialrities like that.
 
Both..I'm mostly experienced with ex-racers, and I think a lot of behavioural problems develop on the track or through owners who mistreat them. I had one horse who was an absoute bloody nightmare in most ways. Bit, kicked, bucked, bolted, spooked..and was downright difficult and stubborn as anything. Only thing he never really did was rear.

He had been badly treated and that made him worse, but I also know his sire had a tendency to produce horses with nasty streaks. I never met his siblings, but I saw a few on the racetrack and a lot of them did this little hopping about kinda thing that he used to do.

My new horse..he hasn't been badly treated from what I can gather in how he is. He's got a decent temperament most of the time but he is stubborn..and can be a bit of a bugger under saddle. He had some of your typical track behaviours for a while, but he's mostly trained out of them. Though he does have 'explosions' where he rears and flyleaps and bucks and spins. Thankfully, they've gotten much more controllable and very infrequent over the last few months.
But I know his bloodline is well known to produce horses that are very clever and sharp, but stubborn and actually very difficult. He's lovely to work with, and shows a really good jump which is also quite typical, but he's the kind of horse who needs to want to work with you, otherwise you can forget it.
There's one horse I know out of the same bloodline who stands in his stable with no door, just a chain. Why? Because he kicks the door and nods his head. Same as mine does. Continuously.
 
Def both, my horse is a lazy so and so, hes also quite clever. He has obviously also had an idiot owner at some point that has let him get away with everything, and thus can revert to bad behaviour if he doesnt want to do something.
 
I would def say both but a lot more nature than nurture otherwise why bother choosing Stallions so carefully!
I have had a bit of experience working with specific Stallions and then a few years later working with their offspring and my goodness you can tell who sired who without even looking at their papers in some instances, not just physical attributes either!
 
mostly nature...look at Cruising(ISH) and his progeny for example a lot of them tend to take after dad and can be a bit sharp!
nurture can only improve so much of the horses natural presonality...
 
I agree with the 'mostly nature' school of thought. You can only nurture to bring out the best aspects of their innate nature I think!

In a year or two, i'm hoping to breed from my mare because I think it's becoming really quite difficult to find leisure rider's horses with leisure horse temperaments - there are a lot of warmbloods out there who aren't talented enough for professionals and who are too tricky for novice amateurs. Hopefully any progeny will inherit the GOOD aspects of her personality...
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Wow- such great examples and stories from everyone...so to conclude it is generally agreed from all our anecdotal evidence that nurturing can only really accentuate the genes and inate characteristics that are already there.

Annret, this is actually something that I strongly agree with. People dont see to want to breed 'normal' horses anymore, (by this I mean horses for the likes of happy amatures like me sho want to have fun and compete with their pet albeit at low levels) and I think that there are many more 'normal leisure' horses required than high level competition horses...and just because horses have the ability for a professional to get them to a certain level, people seem to forget that people are professional for a reason and there may be attitude probs to overcome to get these horses where you want them to be (nurturing!!)!-so I may be contacting you in a couple of years when you start breeding!
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