Attitude of professionals

I haven't read all the posts but I had a bad experience with a BS bod once in that he punched in the ribs so hard he stumbled my two yrs old warmblood. His crime ? Fidgeting.

Needless to say I left the yard and sent him to someone else, also BS. This time though I visited the guys yard first and what I liked was that when he went up to the stable doors the horses all came forward to say hello which was a sign they liked the guy, well to me anyway.


In all cases though I think the internet is either a friend or a foe to these professionals and if I ever posted wanting feedback I would want it all good and bad so as to make an informed choice.

Likewise I will always PM someone to warn them of someone bad.
 
Spring Feather said:
I have come to the conclusion, from observing the same farriers/vets that I use who have never raised a hand to any of mine, that some of these professionals take cues from the owners. If they think you have no clue then they will take matters into their own hands (quite literally!). If they believe you do know what you are doing then they leave you to handle any misdemeanors.
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I have to say I completely agree with this, I have NEVER had a vet or a farrier behave in that way around my horses. Even when a new mare kicked him (quite badly) he never raised a hand to her, he did however looked a little shocked (through the pain) and said 'that is the first time any of your horses has kicked me! I had already told the mare off immediately it happened as that is unacceptable behaviour. However, I have to say that my farrier has told me lots of stories about ineffectual owners and badly behaved horses. This same farrier has done all my young horses from the beginning and I have never ever seen him lose his temper, even with the most recalcitrant youngster.

As an aside, the mare has never kicked him since :)
 
I'm a complete novice but I think it's important to remember and remind yourself that it doesn't matter one bit how experienced someone is..whether they've been riding and owning horses for 1 or 50 years professional or not, it doesn't automatically mean what they do and say is right. :(
 
Mari said:
I'm one of those people who can't keep their mouth shut! So when I see 'abuse' going on I have to say something! Sometimes it's along the -can I help- line but more often it's not! I hate to see any animal being treated like an insensitive machine.
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Me too, years ago I was stewarding for a 'have a go', dressage competition, a woman appeared on a 4yo, complete with pelham with roundings, spurs and a whip. She was entered to do 4 classes with this poor youngster. Her standard of riding was less than perfect. After the first class (painful to watch), I advised the secretary and she was prevented from continuing. Her response was that her trainer had told her to do it as the pony had no brakes *head desk*

Abuse is not always in the form of a beating, nor is it always carried out by a professional, I have seen some absolutely disgusting things as a judge (sent one woman out because she had put her spurs (rowelled) on upside down - on a 4YO - yard know it all had advised her to do this) - I could go on but I am in danger of rambling now :)
 
Allover said:
The problem is that there is soo much of it going on, as a groom it is sometimes excruciating to see what these animals suffer and the worst thing is that you know there is really nothing you can do to prevent it either at the time or in the future. I remember one groom saying to me that allthough her boss (olympic gold medalist) is a complete nasty b****** to the horses at least she knows she is giving them the best care she can and helping them get at least a bit of love and care. Its heartbreaking.

If i am ever in that situation again i hope i have the chance to get my phone out and video it, at least then the authorities cant ingore it.
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This is shocking but don't ever think you can't do anything about it.
The internet is not these people's friend, get the word out there about abuse and indirectly and on the qt it does work.

You can always write to the governing bodies with your worries and even if nothing is done more people will know and recommendations may not be made.

I know someone who was shafted by a dealer and has persuaded at least three other people not to go to him for a horse because of her experience. All done though the internet.

Its a powerful medium and at some point these peoples behaviour will catch up with them.
 
foxy1 said:
Every Farrier I have had (and I've had afew) has not been afraid of whacking horses whilst shoeing. One full on punched a horse on his muzzle with a closed fist. Another hit the horses cannon bone with the handle of his hammer, horse jumped and held leg up off the ground in pain and farrier said "now you will hold your *********g leg up won't you"

There seems to be an attitude with some professionals that anyone who isn't prepared to give a horse a thrashing is laughed at as a 'pet owner' and 'fluffy bunny hugger' etc.
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Wtf ....i'd have grabbed him by the balls and ran him backwards outta the yard, tbh the guy who hit the horse with the hammer wouldve got a kick in the nuts for tbat one, ive never had anything like that from any farrier or vet.
 
That's disgraceful. I would knock that man's head off myself. What an "expert", poor horse, definately make sure word gets around about him
 
Spring Feather said:
I have come to the conclusion, from observing the same farriers/vets that I use who have never raised a hand to any of mine, that some of these professionals take cues from the owners. If they think you have no clue then they will take matters into their own hands (quite literally!). If they believe you do know what you are doing then they leave you to handle any misdemeanors.
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I think this is very true. If as the owner you ensure that the horse is well-mannered, the professional will indeed take his/her cue from you and will not need to take any action himself.
As for 'over-enthusiastic' farriers, there is one local to us who I will never employ again mainly because his feet are rubbish with too long toes but also because he was beginning to get very grumpy with one of our mares who had always struggled to stand still on 3 legs (our first farrier always stood her next to a wall so that she couldn't fall over). Many years later I mentioned this to an acquaintance who had just had her 1st appt for her 4 ponies. She soon got rid of him again.
 
The only run in I've had with a professional is when an "instructor" decided that she would teach my gelding to work into the bridle. I ride with a very light contact with the idea that when the horse is working over the back properly the outline will naturally come - takes longer to achieve but the result is a horse working nicely and very light in the hand.
She objected to this, hopped on (I had no idea what she was about to do), shortened her reins and literally yanked his head down - I saw each side of the bit move at least an inch :mad: I stopped my boy, literally dragged her out of the saddle, told her in no uncertain terms where she could stick the money for the 'lesson' and turned my boy back out. I couldn't touch his mouth at all for 3 days :(
 
My farriers I trust implicitly. Yes, every now and then they will whack one of the older horses but is a just action. One older horse I had would just lean and lean and a whack with the rasp and he remembered that he had three legs perfectly capable of holding his weight!

There is always going to be abuse whether it is intentional or not. I have seen many people who love their horses dearly be abusive through incorrect feeding, rugs that do not fit and cause wither rubs, over bitted and so on. It is in ignorance rather an intentional but abuse just the same.

A woman near me had two elderly ex racehorses. They were out 24/7 in a very boggy field. Both were rugged but in terrible condition. She fed them not very good hay which was just in the mud, they both needed their teeth doing but she couldn't afford it. They got into very poor condition and as both were very old euthanasia was a better option. She meant well but to me that was abuse.
 
Any abuse witnessed MUST be reported to a governing body- farriers registration council, BHS, whoever appropriate. In the case of the OP i wouldn't rest if there was cctv. People who handle horses in such a way are a disgrace and even if you dont get very far by reporting them, if everyone does the same eventually there is a hope that the powers that be will sit up and take notice.

I also agree with another poster -You Tube is a very good idea. And make sure a link is put on here!
 
BBH said:
This is shocking but don't ever think you can't do anything about it.
The internet is not these people's friend, get the word out there about abuse and indirectly and on the qt it does work.

You can always write to the governing bodies with your worries and even if nothing is done more people will know and recommendations may not be made.

I know someone who was shafted by a dealer and has persuaded at least three other people not to go to him for a horse because of her experience. All done though the internet.

Its a powerful medium and at some point these peoples behaviour will catch up with them.
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"People" know this abuse takes place on these yards and they are still happy to send their horses to these people to get them "schooled". They have the name and the "experience" of dealing with "difficult".

An example of a horse i used to look after, really nice talented 6yr old, quite obvioulsy, in my eyes, had something wrong with him. Could jump the moon but would be really difficult between the fences and got really wound up at shows. In the stable he was always "standing back on his heels" and just looked a bit uncomfortable, especially after shows. I tried to speak to the owners, one of whom was a very experienced horseman, but because i am merely a groom was ignored. Anyway this horse ended up going to the yard of the "torture chamber" rider, christ knows what happened to him, i left the job soon after but these people KNEW full well what this horse was going to go through and still sent him there.

Often times it comes down to money, if you can get the horse performing at the higher levels, whether it be through fear or understanding then the price of the horse goes up.
 
Allover said:
"People" know this abuse takes place on these yards and they are still happy to send their horses to these people to get them "schooled". They have the name and the "experience" of dealing with "difficult".

An example of a horse i used to look after, really nice talented 6yr old, quite obvioulsy, in my eyes, had something wrong with him. Could jump the moon but would be really difficult between the fences and got really wound up at shows. In the stable he was always "standing back on his heels" and just looked a bit uncomfortable, especially after shows. I tried to speak to the owners, one of whom was a very experienced horseman, but because i am merely a groom was ignored. Anyway this horse ended up going to the yard of the "torture chamber" rider, christ knows what happened to him, i left the job soon after but these people KNEW full well what this horse was going to go through and still sent him there.

Often times it comes down to money, if you can get the horse performing at the higher levels, whether it be through fear or understanding then the price of the horse goes up.
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I totally understand what you are saying and yes there will be people who are concerned about nothing but money but there are also others who aren't. You may not have been able to help this horse but you may be able to help others by getting the word out there and some people will not use him.

That thing about ' only being a groom' is wrong. When I had a horse professionally produced I listened to the guys flannel but went to the grooms to find the real story.

If there are no regulatory bodies prepared to give horses a voice people like grooms have to stand up for them.
At the end of the day if you have two equally sucessful producers, one who gets short term results through fear and the other who gets long term success with careful nuturing I know where my horses would go.
 
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I worked at a racehorse rescue and retraining charity once. The horses were due for the dentist and I was holding this lovely, sweet 5yr old. He had the dentist headcollar, teeth holding thing (what's it's name?!) shoved on, and starting to get scarred, showing whites of his eyes, and tossing his head in the air. So I stroked his neck, and talked to him quietly when out of the blue the dentist got one of his rasps and wacked him so hard on the nose! :mad: It made such a sickening thud :eek::confused::mad: I just looked in horror at him, and he said "Sorry you had to see that, but he needed it"!! Nooo, just gentle words and being calm and patient would have helped the horse.

I went and told the owner/manager of the charity who just shrugged, and said that's how he works. Being a charity I just couldn't get my head around it, when they are meant to be rescuing horses from abuse...I swiftly left after that.
 
There are some nasty farriers around,that like to wallop the horses because horse wont do as farrier wants.Cobby wouldnt let farrier pick up his back feet,so two different farriers,on 2 ocassions, hit my cob in the stomach with the rasp,I was so angry,lucky I didnt shove it up their rear ends.One recommended the farrier I have now,who I can say is BRILLIANT and NEVER hit my horse,hes kind and gentle with my cobby.

Report him to the farrier registration board.
 
Spring Feather said:
I have come to the conclusion, from observing the same farriers/vets that I use who have never raised a hand to any of mine, that some of these professionals take cues from the owners. If they think you have no clue then they will take matters into their own hands (quite literally!). If they believe you do know what you are doing then they leave you to handle any misdemeanors.
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I completely agree with this.

I recently had a new farrier turn up to shoe my bosses horses, obviously i am in a position to always be around when the horses are shod, anyway i had to tell this guy to go slowly, pointing out he may need to be considerate towards the horses issues (one is very old and the other has some back issues so both find it uncomfortable to hold their legs up for extended periods), but when the horses did react i was on top of the situation and did not expect the farrier to have to do that for me. As a result the farriers do not need to do any disciplining.
 
Blue Rider said:
Not sure you could call it "just hitting" tbh.
I would safely say that any slap that knocks nigh on half a ton of horse, is fairly equivalent to a KO in a human.

Does it affect your view of things if I disclose this as a supposedly experienced farrier, early in the morning and highly probable would be his first call and first horse. Therefore wouldn't be using the tired and agitated from many horses reasoning. ?
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My old farrier used to be in partnership with someone who was shoeing my horse, he put his front leg on the tripod to do the clenches etc, my horse is 32 now, not sure how old he was then but was never very good on the tripod possible due to his arthritis, my normal farrier just used to put his foot on his knee to to this. Anyhoo, my horse put his nose down to have a look at proceedings with his foot up, the farrier proceeded to hit my horse with the back of his hand in his teeth and said that was for earlier, I was there the entire time and nothing had happened, hence that was the last time he touched my horse, my normal farrier was there shoeing another horse, I was very upset and told him I didn't want him shoeing my horse EVER, from NOW so he was finished off by my normal farrier and I NEVER let him touch my horse again.
 
Allover said:
I completely agree with this.

I recently had a new farrier turn up to shoe my bosses horses, obviously i am in a position to always be around when the horses are shod, anyway i had to tell this guy to go slowly, pointing out he may need to be considerate towards the horses issues (one is very old and the other has some back issues so both find it uncomfortable to hold their legs up for extended periods), but when the horses did react i was on top of the situation and did not expect the farrier to have to do that for me. As a result the farriers do not need to do any disciplining.
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I do not believe it is a farriers job to 'discipline' a horse. In my case my horse was not misbehaving but standing quietly as she does when he poked his finger into a cut on her leg. At the time I was so shocked I didnt know what to say/do. I would love to know what he was trying to achieve though.


Not sure who it was, but another poster said they did not deal with this sort of thing as she 'could afford the best'....well price is not everything. The farrier who did this to my horse is the most pricey one who comes to our yard.
 
This is exactly the reason I have never sent any of my horses to a "professional". Heard too many horror stories. I'd much rather sort any issues out myself, at least I know my horse wont get beaten up.
 
After all these horror stories, i'd just like to say ive got a great farrier and team of vets, stories like these make me really appreciate them, i have one horse who can be a bit nervous and scared when having things done and we've never had to resort to full on violent attacks on him EVER.
A good farrier and vet are worth their weight in gold
 
teddyt said:
Any abuse witnessed MUST be reported to a governing body- farriers registration council, BHS, whoever appropriate. In the case of the OP i wouldn't rest if there was cctv. People who handle horses in such a way are a disgrace and even if you dont get very far by reporting them, if everyone does the same eventually there is a hope that the powers that be will sit up and take notice.

I also agree with another poster -You Tube is a very good idea. And make sure a link is put on here!
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amen to this.
it really frustrates me seeing the veiled allusions to certain so-called Pros on this sort of thread... although i realise the legal implications of naming and shaming.
i can't believe the FRC won't accept cctv coverage, the horse's body language is the only thing they need to 'listen' to surely?
 
I am very suprised to read that the Farriers Registration Council did not take the complaints seriously and I can only assume that the initial complaint was made by telephone but not backed up in writing.

The Farriers Registration Council are obliged to take account of every formal complaint and refer it to their disciplinary committee for due consideration by them. This will take some time until it is heard by the disciplinary committee but any formal complaint to the Farriers Registration Committee is investigated.
 
elsazzo said:
I do not believe it is a farriers job to 'discipline' a horse. In my case my horse was not misbehaving but standing quietly as she does when he poked his finger into a cut on her leg. At the time I was so shocked I didnt know what to say/do. I would love to know what he was trying to achieve though.


Not sure who it was, but another poster said they did not deal with this sort of thing as she 'could afford the best'....well price is not everything. The farrier who did this to my horse is the most pricey one who comes to our yard.
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Neither do i, it should be down the the owner, groom etc to keep on top of.

I was agreeing with another post regarding the "professionals" seeing the way the handler is dealing with the situation and thinking that they know best and take over.

I can also see no reason as to why anyone would think it was OK to get involved in anything other than what they are paid to do unless asked to do so and then to react in a violent manner towards the animal when they react can be nothing short of unacceptable!

And again, completely right, cost of service in no means correlates to attitude of professional!
 
kerilli said:
amen to this.
it really frustrates me seeing the veiled allusions to certain so-called Pros on this sort of thread... although i realise the legal implications of naming and shaming.
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It is not just the legal implications, the horse world is very small, if you rely on the industry for your livlihood then if you stand up and say "so and so did such and such" and make a "fuss" then there is a good chance that you will be branded a trouble maker and find yourself in a near impossible position when looking for work.

What, realistically, can people do?
 
i believe that the farrier should never need to raise his hand to a horse as the owner of the horse should have made sure the horse is ready and well trained enough to stand quietly for the farrier.
HOWEVER i also believe that any farrier that you witness unnessecarily hitting / kicking a horse should be reported straight away and other people should be discouraged from useing them as its not fair that there are some very good, patient and kind farriers out there who could be loseing out on work because of these farriers. same goes for pritty much all profesions tbh.
 
BBH said:
I totally understand what you are saying and yes there will be people who are concerned about nothing but money but there are also others who aren't. You may not have been able to help this horse but you may be able to help others by getting the word out there and some people will not use him.

That thing about ' only being a groom' is wrong. When I had a horse professionally produced I listened to the guys flannel but went to the grooms to find the real story.

If there are no regulatory bodies prepared to give horses a voice people like grooms have to stand up for them.
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I agree with you but without proof there is nothing you can do, it comes down to one persons word against another. I am sure that any groom that has been in the same situation i have (and i know there are many more out there) would love to have somewhere to turn when they see this sort of abuse going on then of course it would be reported, after all grooms do the job because normally they care deeply for the animals and their welfare, not for the glamorous lifestyle!!!

I understand there is a video of this horse being hit and the FRC are going to do nothing so even with hard proof you are still not, it seems, going to get anywhere with the governing bodies!
 
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Some of these stories are alwful! Makes my blood boil to read some of them.

I will only use people who have been recomended to me. My farrier is fab, but then again I already knew him from when he shod my share Horse, so had no worries letting him do mine. My dentist is also fab, he was recomended to me and my Horse has never seen a dentist (I've had her 7 weeks) and he was so patient and understanding, never once got fed up, even though she was playing up a bit as she was scared. Torwards the end she was settling and he gave her a nice pig pat after. I will deffiently be using him again.

I've seen a horrific beating at an equine college, by one of the college tutors. Most of the students, including myself were to upset to finish the "lesson" and told the YO and then told the man who oversees the Equine department. The college tutor is still teaching however :mad: He was handling one of the stallions, the stallion isn't used to being handled at all (he was young and new to the college) He had an abbcess and the "lesson" was meant to be about poulticin (sp?) The Horse was quite confused and snatched his hoove away, tutor tried again, Horse snatched his hoove away. The tutor completly lost it, he called the Horse a *********g B******d and then punched him round the head twice. It actually threw the Horse off balance although he remained standing. Had it been a human that recieved a punch like that they would've been knocked out for sure. It was disgusting, here I was wanting to learn and I had this man teaching me, Of course I didn't listen to anything he said after that as I am not interested in learning them sort of things :(
 
Tiasmum said:
I'm a complete novice but I think it's important to remember and remind yourself that it doesn't matter one bit how experienced someone is..whether they've been riding and owning horses for 1 or 50 years professional or not, it doesn't automatically mean what they do and say is right. :(
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Completely agree with the above..

I'm not a novice and have had horses since I was a child albiet with a very long break in my twenties. I have been on the receiving end of people who were acting in a professional capacity ignore my feedback/concerns and put me down at the determent of the horse. Luckily I now trust my own instinct with my horse more than anyone else, unless I am sure they know what they are doing and I like how they behave not just to my horse but to me I won't use them.

I am also ashamed to admit a professional trainer who I paid alot of money in livery money to help me with my horse (who I was scared of at the time), frequently smacked, kicked and punished her. Often with a riding crop or her boot. Luckily I realised what was happening for it not to have a longterm affect, but I will never forgive myself. And the professional, if I could name her I would, but I think her behaviour was a result of a lack of experience and knowledge which she was trying to hide.

However I have used professionals who have been absolutely fantastic and they deserve to be called professional!
 
darkhorse123 said:
disgusting - i would have slapped him right back no matter how "famous " he was if he did that to my horse - omg!!!! :mad:
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Yep I agree. I wouldn't have been able to help myself and he certainly would not be coming back to my yard again. I would defo report him if he is registered. Outrageous behaviour. :mad:
 
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