Awful hack on new horse

abb123 said:
Sounds like he is feeling insecure and was having a temper tantrum about leaving your in-season mare with his arch enemy shetland rival
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I'd be inclined to agree with this. It could just be a build up of stress in the horse that results in a meltdown - stress from a yard move/change owner, standing martingale being off. Plus add in the fact the horse is lacking basic manners if it always needs to go in front, I'd say its all built up in the horse and this new hack route was just the straw that broke the camels back.. I get in eventers who would be very 'leader; style horses and would want to be in front, but you need to teach them they can't do that, as someone said you will always have situations like pleasure rides where they can't go in front. I often spend week on horrible hacking fighting the horse to stay behind, but it needs to be done. And as someone said a horse needs to respect the rider that is on it. That 'bond' stuff is complete horse *****, a horse doesn't behave because it loves a person, it behaves because it has clear and easily understood boundaries on how to behave.

If you step back, how tough are you when it started to act up. I understand completely about getting off to check the curb, but after that how strong a rider were you to push through it?
 
I wouldn’t be giving this horse too long. An experienced happy hack shouldn’t act like a dangerous twonk, even if it is a bit unsettled by a move.

I’d ask the owner to come and hop on and take it out for a hack ASAP.
If it so much as tries to do anything daft I’d broach the subject of them taking it back. You don’t know unless you ask but if you are thinking that way the sooner the better
 
amymay said:
Doesn't matter if it was a private sale.
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Yes it does

If the seller was honest in their assessment of the horse and if it had never misbehaved in this manner with them then in a private sale it would be be up to the buyer to prove that the seller lied. (ie investigating the horses background and finding someone that is prepared to say that it was known to misbehave in this manner)

If it was a sale by a dealer then the default is that even if they did not know there was a fault they should have and therefore they are bound by the SoGA .
 
^^ that's my inclination, if it messes about at all it proves the point that whether it is unsettled by the move/change of rider it isn't suitable and if she likes the horse enough she would take it back anyway to sell to someone more suitable.
 
I haven't tried hacking out alone but I will, even if it's a bit of in-hand leading then hopping on. He was fine and listened to me in hand.

I haven't had back/teeth/saddle checked. But he didn't show any inclination towards this sort of behaviour when I tried him, nor when riding in the field in the run-up to trying this hack. He was blatantly unsettled leaving my mare so I do think that was behind it all. But of course I will get these checked if I'm thinking of trying to work through this.

It was a private sale and I don't really get the impression that the seller lied. His advert was correct for what he was when I tried him. She said he was always the lead horse but not that he couldn't be ridden next to another horse. I've known plenty of horses who usually are up front but will accept not being. My old mare was one. But that is maybe my fault for assuming it didn't mean he couldn't be alongside/behind.

I think she would take him back, she clearly adored the horse (well pony actually!) and was very upset when she left him with me and would only want the best for him. I doubt I'll get my money back and having bought a pony in March for hacking - who was utterly adorable - who then came down with grass sickness 4 days in and had to be put down, well aside from the upset this is all causing me, my bank balance could do without losing out again. But that, I suppose, is horses for you!

Did I ride strongly enough? I'm the first to admit I'm not a forceful rider and I get nervous when this sort of thing happens. I got off the first time partly with the thought of his bridle but also because he'd just dived down a ditch and I didn't really want him to fall over and land on top of me. I did my very best to ride through the rest of it and my friend said she didn't think I could have done any different. I think if I'd have given him a boot at any point he would have gone into orbit even more and I probably would have been forcibly ejected rather than managing to slither off his bum when he landed in the fence. He clearly was an upset horse. But do I think it excused his behaviour? Not really.
 
99% of horses that changes yards and owners will have a point where they test the rider, especially if they are put under a bit more stress. If that horse had come here the whinnying and stressy behaviour would made me not push the horse too far on a first hack (eg pressing buttons and having gates opening). Personally with a horse acting like that I would have walked the horse a small distance and not put it under any pressure for a first hack, or I probably would have long lined it.

I wouldn't be panicing about the horse. It sounds like it successfully hacked out for years with its last owner, no reason why it should do the same with this new owner. I'd get the old owner down and see what she makes of the behaviour firstly. it might be a case of the new owner needing to build the horses confidence hacking a bit slower, the new owner might need to be tougher and ride through the bad behaviour for a period or the horse might not have been out with mares before and need to adapt to the new herd dynamics in place.

Theres a lot of new dynamics that the horse wouldn't have encountered in its last home with one owner for over a decade. They aren't robots and they do get stressed and can react, it doesn't mean its a dangerous horse or has been missold.
 
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It sounds awful, but we get horses in here and sometimes you just need to get the back protector on, a stick and just ride through the bad behaviour. Some horses just need to know you are in control and when you ride them through it it settles an lot of them and they can relax cause they know you are in charge. Any weird hackers we get in usually just don't trust that they can relinquish control to the rider. If you aren't happy that you can push through the bad behaviour then it might be an option to get someone in who you know is happy to sit out bad behaviour for a bit. Not someone harsh, but just someone who can sit through it and be calm and reward the horses for the right behaviour.

I think you are right tho that it could be the mare making him clingy.
 
Of course it hard to advise without seeing the horse but my but feeling is you are in all likely hood dealing with a spoilt horse who has trained his long term owner .
If it fixable yes it should be but are you up for it ?
I would try to return it sooner rather than later .
I would never give a mature horse bought as a hack down time when changing home they do much better IME when you get then straight into work .
I think the warnings where there the Pelham the standing martingale just get out of it ASAP .
I could right a long list of biazzre behaviours I have seen from horses moving home usually all fixable but if your not up for it just get him sent back if you can .
 
Goldenstar said:
Of course it hard to advise without seeing the horse but my but feeling is you are in all likely hood dealing with a spoilt horse who has trained his long term owner .
If it fixable yes it should be but are you up for it ?
I would try to return it sooner rather than later .
I would never give a mature horse bought as a hack down time when changing home they do much better IME when you get then straight into work .
I think the warnings where there the Pelham the standing martingale just get out of it ASAP .
I could right a long list of biazzre behaviours I have seen from horses moving home usually all fixable but if your not up for it just get him sent back if you can .
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For me I would get out of it too if I can. You brought this for fun to hack on its own. You already have another so don't bother. That is assuming they will take it back?
 
Goldenstar said:
Of course it hard to advise without seeing the horse but my but feeling is you are in all likely hood dealing with a spoilt horse who has trained his long term owner .
If it fixable yes it should be but are you up for it ?
I would try to return it sooner rather than later .
I would never give a mature horse bought as a hack down time when changing home they do much better IME when you get then straight into work .
I think the warnings where there the Pelham the standing martingale just get out of it ASAP .
I could right a long list of biazzre behaviours I have seen from horses moving home usually all fixable but if your not up for it just get him sent back if you can .
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I am not up to it I don't think. If it is genuinely a case of being unsettled at leaving my mare or just with a change and a bit of time can fix it then fine. But if it's because of real training issues I don't think I have the energy for that. Whether I try to work out which of these two things it is I don't know.

I've put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into my mare and am proud of how far we have come, despite not cracking her hacking issue, but I don't want to do that again. Don't get me wrong, of course no horse is a robot and I don't mind putting work in. I would expect that. But sorting out the issues I saw yesterday if it was a regular thing? I don't think I can do that. As travelling pony says this was meant to be my fun horse!
 
Akkalia1 said:
I am not up to it I don't think. If it is genuinely a case of being unsettled at leaving my mare or just with a change and a bit of time can fix it then fine. But if it's because of real training issues I don't think I have the energy for that. Whether I try to work out which of these two things it is I don't know.

I've put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into my mare and am proud of how far we have come, despite not cracking her hacking issue, but I don't want to do that again. Don't get me wrong, of course no horse is a robot and I don't mind putting work in. I would expect that. But sorting out the issues I saw yesterday if it was a regular thing? I don't think I can do that. As travelling pony says this was meant to be my fun horse!
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Been there myself and wasted thousands this year get rid quick
 
amymay said:
Have you done a general Google search? Was the horse advertised as good to hack?

I'd personally be sending the bleddy thing back. It sounds completely dangerous.
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Exactly. Previous owner sounds like a right chump - bond indeed :rolleyes3:
 
JFTD said:
Exactly. Previous owner sounds like a right chump - bond indeed :rolleyes3:
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I can understand you coming to that conclusion. The bond chat is not for everyone I know!! :D

But for avoidance of doubt I don't think she mis-sold him. He hacked fine when I tried him, as was advertised. I saw videos of him hacking with previous owner and it all looked good.

There could be training issues here for sure with the whole lead horse thing and this was compounded by the separation from my mare, he was a stressed out horse. But I totally agree it was way, way over the top the reaction.

Can't remember who said that it sounded like too much of a hack for a new horse, maybe you're right, when I saw he was stressed I should have made it a very small, end of the road and back thing. I just thought since he's been hacked over all sorts, motorway passes, through a McDonalds drive through, I kind of figured the wee hack I did would be ok!

Meh, I think getting the owner over ASAP is my first port of call.
 
Akkalia1 said:
Meh, I think getting the owner over ASAP is my first port of call.
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This

From what you have said you wanted what you thought you had bought and would love him as that. The seller obviously had an emotional attachment to him and therefore hopefully she will be willing to come over to witness / help fix his behaviour.

If she fixes it then all well and good you have what you wanted. If she doesn't then you need to make it clear that you aren't able or willing to put the time in to trying to fix it. You can ask her to refund your money and take him back and see what her response is. Make it clear if not then you will be looking to get rid of him one way or another.
 
the first couple of weeks when you were settling him in, did you seperate him from the mare at all? I only have geldings (for partly that reasons, as SA always seems worse between mares and geldings than geldings and geldings IME) but whenever I get a new one I spend some time doing stuff seperately with them, even if not riding. Bring one in to groom, take the other for a walk, turn one out, bring one in-all for varying amounts of time.

I agree that you shouldnt have to sort this if you dont want to. A horse thats been with a single owner all its life can be quite green in some ways -best to sound out the owner, good luck.
 
Fred66 said:
This

From what you have said you wanted what you thought you had bought and would love him as that. The seller obviously had an emotional attachment to him and therefore hopefully she will be willing to come over to witness / help fix his behaviour.

If she fixes it then all well and good you have what you wanted. If she doesn't then you need to make it clear that you aren't able or willing to put the time in to trying to fix it. You can ask her to refund your money and take him back and see what her response is. Make it clear if not then you will be looking to get rid of him one way or another.
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Yes, I do think she will come and help so I will do this.
 
I am deeply suspicious of all sellers!! If I were selling Max I could easily set things up so his quirks don't show up. Basically take him somewhere he knows and show him off hacking on the buckle! But he is NOT a good hacking horse and I woiuld never claim he was. (Well not yet anyway though I plan to work on it....) He has tantrums if he is left behind (bucking/rearing) and he gets strong and silly in new places and jog, prances then rears if you try and hold him back.

I could sell him as a lovely hack if we set off from his own yard but he would struggle in the scenario of me hacking him somewhere unfamiliar with another horse - ie what the old owner is trying to avoid!

Ask for the owner to repeat the route you did as suggested above including waiting at the buttons. If she won't, get rid as she is probably hiding something. If she does hack him out then be super attentive to anything she does that suggests she is heading off problems at the pass. Remember a lot of bad behaviour is headed off before you can really see it. Max hardly ever rears with me because I can feel him getting tense and I stick a few circles/spins in etc. Looks fairly innocuous but I know where the behaviour is headed if I don't re-direct him! So beware any 'I'll just circle him to settle him' stuff and watch out for tension - jogging, head high etc. Even if she dismisses it as him just being unsettled in a new place and even if it does not escalate. A safe happy hacker is just that. Get on and go for a ride anywhere and stay relaxed. Stand and wait, go in front or behind etc. On the other hand if he is chilled on that ride with her then you will know he IS a good hacker but just needs time and exposure to feel safe hacking with you.

Good luck. Hope it works out.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
the first couple of weeks when you were settling him in, did you seperate him from the mare at all? I only have geldings (for partly that reasons, as SA always seems worse between mares and geldings than geldings and geldings IME) but whenever I get a new one I spend some time doing stuff seperately with them, even if not riding. Bring one in to groom, take the other for a walk, turn one out, bring one in-all for varying amounts of time.

I agree that you shouldnt have to sort this if you dont want to. A horse thats been with a single owner all its life can be quite green in some ways -best to sound out the owner, good luck.
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Yes, I did exactly this from the get go. Each horse would come in separately each day for a groom and/or ride in the field with a potter along our road (dead end). My mare was mostly ok with this, she is a stressy plonker but she coped fine with just some fidgeting when tied up. She was fine left in the field with the shetland. New horse was ok when brought in but was a bit stressy left in the field with the shetland. This settled after a few days. When my mare came into season however both horses were mostly ok being brought in but the one left in the field did a bit more running about and calling again.

Thank you , I think I shall need some luck!!
 
In fairness the horse was 100% bombproof to the original owner! So I dont think she lied because he really hasnt been with any other riders & trusts his rider completely no matter where they go, so she would have every reason to believe he is 100% bombproof for her. The definition of bombproof then is up for debate rather than her belief that her horse is bombproof.

My young horse was brilliant jumping & on trial but when I brought him home he was spooky with me - well of course, everything has changed, new rider, asking new things or asking things differently & new routine, new smells, new everything. Now I know he is young so you would expect a bit of young-horse-ness but the same applies, everything in this horses world has disappeared, maybe he is bombproof with his old rider because she rode him strongly or differently, you dont know!

Get the old owner out but otherwise this horse is getting himself worked up because he doenst understand & he is reacting before you have a chance to explain the situation to him. I would be inclined to help him by maybe putting him a calmer for a few weeks & taking down his adrenaline levels, giving him a chance to relax & listen to you. He isnt listening, he is just reacting.

But get his old owner out first - if he is doing the same with her, then he is probably just wound up & confused. Then you an decide or make an agreement about the way forward.
 
I haven't read all the replies, but just wondering if anyone has mentioned the electric gates at all?

Both times the horse spooked and ran through/into the fence was when you pressed the button to open the gates - maybe he hasn't ever seen or heard this before (they do make a low buzzing noise and vibrate a bit) and after being in a new place with a new rider on a new hack, his brain just couldn't cope with the gates too? I'd try walking him to the gates in-hand and just opening and closing them, to get him used to the sound. Sorry if someone's already suggested that!
 
Haven't read all the replies but he sounds like he is a loved up herd leader and is panicking about being away from the mare. Some horses take being in charge very seriously.
 
Ambers Echo said:
How do you know? Apart from being told by the owner?? Or do you know the horse/owner?
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I have lost about 2k this year in selling my horse by being super honest and in buying from someone who lied.

I don’t believe anything would become totally different. As described by op it sounds dangerous.

I wouldn’t be getting back in it if they will take it back I would do that. If she loves it she will.

Why work through a load of issues when you have spent good money to have fun.

I at present want to get rid of all of mine because I’m sick of the expense and drama. Hobbies are meant to be fun and enjoyable let this one go.
 
The woman who brought mine rang up going mad because she had some problem tacking it up. When we talked it was quite obvious what had happened and we resolved it. I had let the horse go at a fraction of its value but would have taken it back if there had been a real issue because I cared about it’s wealfare. Don’t be too nice next thing will be she has nowhere to put it and has bonded with another
 
Lastly sorry you say you aren’t that confident this will do nothing for you. Just be a bit selfish if you don’t feel safe or happy just leave it. If he is stubborn and pig headed he will know you are afraid and don’t mean it.
 
Ambers Echo said:
I am deeply suspicious of all sellers!! If I were selling Max I could easily set things up so his quirks don't show up. Basically take him somewhere he knows and show him off hacking on the buckle! But he is NOT a good hacking horse and I woiuld never claim he was. (Well not yet anyway though I plan to work on it....) He has tantrums if he is left behind (bucking/rearing) and he gets strong and silly in new places and jog, prances then rears if you try and hold him back.
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I could sell one of mine as a lovely hack if I set him up for it too (well, I could, if I hadn't talked about his antics at length on here!). In company, at pleasure rides and all that, he's foot perfect.

Alone, he can be very nice - if he's hacking every day, and working hard. Give him a week off and he'll spook at every other blade of grass and generally be a melodramatic idiot. Take him on a new route, or one he's not been on for a month or two, alone, when he's slightly fresh and he can be seriously stupid, potentially dangerous if you don't know how to manage him (and how to avoid these situations).

I'd never sell him, and I'd certainly never sell him as an easy hack - but if I set him up for it, I'll bet I could. One does wonder about a seller who puts him in a pelham and standing martingale for viewing, despite being a mannerly hack.
 
And even loved up herd leaders (have one of those) can act perfectly mannerly when hacking straight off if they are genuinely good to hack.
 
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