Awful hack on new horse

HeyMich said:
I haven't read all the replies, but just wondering if anyone has mentioned the electric gates at all?

Both times the horse spooked and ran through/into the fence was when you pressed the button to open the gates - maybe he hasn't ever seen or heard this before (they do make a low buzzing noise and vibrate a bit) and after being in a new place with a new rider on a new hack, his brain just couldn't cope with the gates too? I'd try walking him to the gates in-hand and just opening and closing them, to get him used to the sound. Sorry if someone's already suggested that!
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yeah i think this is a big factor too.I know my horses wouldn't be used to this, and some would associate gates and a buzzing nose with electric fencing. I think it was a stressful thing for a horse in a new place, with a new rider who sounds a bit nervy. He might be a bit all over the place with being in charge of a mare now too. A few groundwork sessions to establish who is in charge, and a few more confidence giving hacks would probably fix this.

i completely disagree with the people saying send him back. I agree with sending back dangerous horses immediately, but theres a lot of factors in this that would make me think this isn't a dangerous horse in the slightest. Also If you buy a horse I think you have a responsibility to give a good shot at seeing can the situation be fixed. I don't think its fair to write off the horse over this one incident. I think the horse deserves a shot at having the owner coming over and having a look at least.
 
You were looking for a mannerly hack to enjoy getting out and about because your project mare won't let you do that (if I have read right)

A project hack that is going to take time and effort isn't what you wanted - if you wanted to spend a year getting a horse used to hacking you could just do that with your mare - right?

A mannerly hack will get off a box at a sponsored ride or riding club Christmas hack and just do his job - no need for settling into the new environment. Hunt hirelings do a days hunting with any old idiot that turns up (I know I have been the idiot) no bond, no warm up etc.
A week for a mature horse to settle is a massive amount of time and no bond doesn't equal no manners or basic control. Yes you might not be able to get the best dressage out of him week one but throwing himself around I promise isn't about bonding. Look at all those event riders who pick up a 3* event horse two weeks before the event - they both just do their job - probably not perfectly but don't disgrace themselves!


I would send back and IMHO get a mare to hack - mixed mares and geldings I think seem to be causing more and more problems!
 
just to play devils advocate to polos mum point above (which is a good point). A hired hack will have been used to countless riders on it and being brought to countless venues.

And as someone who events other peoples horses, those horses would also be used to various riders and venues from a young age. And the riders would be confident enough to sort out bad behaviour quickly.

This horse has had one rider for 11 years and probably hacked the same route 90% of the time. It's a different ballgame for it.
 
Haven't read all the replies but from what you've said in the OP and from the old owner's response, I would send him back.

Settling period or not, he's not the happy hacker you set out to buy, and too many incidents like this and your confidence will be wrecked. It sounds like he would be more suited to a hard working hunting home really.
 
paddi22 said:
yeah i think this is a big factor too.I know my horses wouldn't be used to this, and some would associate gates and a buzzing nose with electric fencing. I think it was a stressful thing for a horse in a new place, with a new rider who sounds a bit nervy. He might be a bit all over the place with being in charge of a mare now too. A few groundwork sessions to establish who is in charge, and a few more confidence giving hacks would probably fix this.

i completely disagree with the people saying send him back. I agree with sending back dangerous horses immediately, but theres a lot of factors in this that would make me think this isn't a dangerous horse in the slightest. Also If you buy a horse I think you have a responsibility to give a good shot at seeing can the situation be fixed. I don't think its fair to write off the horse over this one incident. I think the horse deserves a shot at having the owner coming over and having a look at least.
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He wasn't behaving before he got to the gates, he will not allow another horse near him which is not my idea of a safe bombproof hack, I have had many new horses arrive here, some for problem solving and I expect them to all be able to walk down the lane with another horse in close proximity without throwing a wobbly, it is a basic requirement of any educated horse and while I would be prepared to work on some aspects of any horse this behaviour is not acceptable and not normal for something sold as a made hack.

I said earlier it sounds like a spoilt brat that the owner has allowed to be in control rather than the rider and it is probably in need of a lot of remedial work, it may be stressful to move home but should not cause a total change in personality.
 
Did you buy his tack with him? If so, are you sure his saddle is the one you rode him in? Or if you didn't buy his tack, have you had a new saddle fitted and a 2nd opinion on the fit of the saddle?
 
paddi22 said:
This horse has had one rider for 11 years and probably hacked the same route 90% of the time. It's a different ballgame for it.
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I had my old horse from a professional eventer who completed him for 10 years. I am a minor hobby rider by comparison - it absolutely took me a year to find all his buttons and learn to ride him properly (not sure I ever truly got the best out if him if I'm honest!) but he did as I asked 95% of the time - he took me at my word often and the halt gallop into a fence as I faffed about was comical for those watching the first few times. As he tried to do what I was asking. He was straight and honest and very used to someone specific who he worked really well for.

I just think there's a big difference between working well for someone and doing the basics without a massive drama. The horse may be fixable and may be fine with a tonne of re-schooling and getting used to someone new. But strong bit, standing martingale, talking of bonding and advice to give him a week to settle in push all the wrong buttons for me.
 
Polos Mum said:
You were looking for a mannerly hack to enjoy getting out and about because your project mare won't let you do that (if I have read right)

A project hack that is going to take time and effort isn't what you wanted - if you wanted to spend a year getting a horse used to hacking you could just do that with your mare - right?
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I agree with this. I suspect the horse is quite unsettled at the moment and was particularly so when you hacked him (new places, new rider, had to leave his new friend) but as others have said, his behaviour does sound extreme and really not what you would expect from a safe happy hacker. As a comparison, when we bought my Arab mare, 17 years ago, I trotted her round the school a few times the day after she arrived, then went for a hack the following day with a group of people from the yard. She went in the middle, walked and trotted happily and, apart from a few mild spooks, didn't put a foot wrong. And she was by no means an easy horse, particularly at the beginning. I had quite a few issues with her, mainly in the school. I was also only 11 years old and really didn't have a clue what I was doing! However, she was sold as good to hack and she always was, even at the beginning.

If you can, I would send him back and find something more suited to what you want.
 
just putting forward theoretical points here for the same of a debate as there are good points on all sides.

But I would always give horses a bit of time to settle here when they come here, usually I just turn them out for a week or two with no riding pressure just to let them settle a bit and adjust to their new herd. I

I know there is a theory that says it is best to get them into work straight away (and i totally agree that some types do better in work and you just sense which ones need that and put them in work straight away).

But if a horse is whinying and feels nappy you either have to make a call on if you need to dial down the pressure, or smack and ride through it.

When a horse changes yards their forage, feeding routines, turnout routines and everything changes for them. You often see horses not sleep properly for the first week, and this can have a massive effect on their ability to cope with stress, and I could completely see how an electric gate making a buzzing sound would make a horse panic if it didn't trust its rider.

A horse who has been happily owned for 11 years by one person, and taken out and about to places and events seemingly with no issue deserves a shot at seeing can the issues be solved. Its a different ballgame from getting an unknown horse in from a dealers.

This horse has a pattern of good behaviour from what the new owner can tell. It could be anything from saddle fit, reaction to new feed or forage, reduced turnout, rider nerves, hormonal reaction to mare, lack of sleep.

Surely letting the old owner up and seeing what she makes of it is no harm. The horse has seemingly happily been in the same home for 11 years, i'd give it the benefit of the doubt with that history.
 
I definitely wouldnt have given him time off on arrival - straight out there and start working! And I definitely wouldn't have let the dynamic evolve with your in-season mare, that is just asking for trouble in any situation.

I would imagine you have lost confidence in the horse now so he is not for you, so I would send him back and avoid those two things in future for a more settled introduction :)
 
Polos Mum said:
The horse may be fixable and may be fine with a tonne of re-schooling and getting used to someone new. But strong bit, standing martingale, talking of bonding and advice to give him a week to settle in push all the wrong buttons for me.
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Absolutely - there are so many red flags in the old owner's behaviour, and in how the horse has behaved. I've always ridden backed horses the day they arrive, or the day after, and I expect them to get on with it - they spend their lives being taken here and there to new and scary places, and are expected to work, move yards, stay away at competitions, and still get on with the job. You don't have to stress a horse to establish these sorts of routines and expectations, unless they have a background of poor training or other issues - you just moderate the requirements so they can give the right answers.

It's not this horse's fault that his owner hasn't had other riders on him, has allowed him to become essentially instituitionalised, and then sold him on. That's really rubbish for the horse - it's poor, thoughtless training. But it will take effort to fix that now, and that isn't what the OP was looking for.
 
No I meant as in her eyes the horse might have been bombproof cause she had no reason not to believe that because she was the only one to hack him & in all places he was familiar. So honestly, she might 'believe' he is that way but my point was it might not be the reality. It's all relative!
 
Let the old owner come and hack him out and watch. Is she a much more skillful rider than you? If he is fine with her he needs to settle with you. At least you would know whether its you. I wouldn't have given a mature horse time to settle - he shouldn't need it. If he is fine with old owner you need to discuss - and maybe lunge before you ride? Are horse flies driving him nuts?
 
I think for me, like others, there are alarm bells ringing. He was deemed strong the first time he was tried, the second time he was anchored with a strong bit and standing martingale. For a confidence giving hack this horse doesn't appear to fit the bill for these reasons x
 
LegOn said:
No I meant as in her eyes the horse might have been bombproof cause she had no reason not to believe that because she was the only one to hack him & in all places he was familiar. So honestly, she might 'believe' he is that way but my point was it might not be the reality. It's all relative!
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Yes and she could well be telling the truth about that. But actually she could also be making it up. Sellers are often utterly dishonest. A friend of mine has just found out that a pony she bought as a safe confidence giving child's pony is a known bolter. She has actually seen the messages the old owner sent to the dealer saing will you sell on this pony with a history of running off after re-trainig to a competent adult with full disclosure! Dealer sold on as a safe child's pony 2 weeks later. And the dealer was actually a FRIEND of my friend. And I have known many private sellers lie too. Our first pony was dangerous. Bought privately as a safe and kind child's first pony. He wasn't! He was foot perfect on viewing. I gave him (and the seller) the beneift of the doubt for several months till my daughter ended up in hospital. He was sold (well more or less gifted)to the yard he was already on as working livery as the RI/YO felt he would be ok with more work and more confident riding. But we soon discovered that with a better the rider he just put more effort into getting them off. He was retired and euthansed in the end. I wish I had just sent him back the first day he deliberatley decked my daughter which was within a week. And not blamed 'settling in' and 'nervous rider' and 101 other excuses. Nor believed the 'he's never done that before' bull!
 
Akkalia1 said:
So I bought a new horse just over two weeks ago. I have an ex-racehorse who has come on leaps and bounds and our schooling is going well, but who is never going to be able to hack around where I live due to regular lorries and tractors being on the road. I've tried and tried to get her used to it but it's just not safe. I can't part with her, I love her despite the difficulties we've had and we're starting to really progress with our dressage which we both enjoy.

So I thought I'd look for a second horse - bombproof happy hacker type. After much searching I found one. Lovely nature. When I first tried him I liked him but had some doubts. He is bombproof in all traffic and forward going which I like. But I found him very strong. And almost too forward, think turbo walk, not that happy to stand or slow his pace. I said to the owner that although I liked him I had concerns about how strong he was. She said she didn't find him strong so was confused. She texted me later to say having thought about it, the only time she'd found him strong was when he'd moved yards and his routine was different. She'd put him in a pelham for the first two weeks after a yard move until he settled. She wondered if having a different rider on him (she's had him since he was 3 and he's now 11 and really she's the only one who rode him and they have a close bond) might have caused him to be unsettled and strong. She suggested she bring him for a hack to a local park and I could try again in his pelham. So we did that and it went perfect, not fazed at being in a new place, got off lorry, stood calmly etc. Much more relaxed horse when riding and just a touch on the reins to slow him down. He went over bridges, alongside a roaring dual carriageway, didn't bat an eyelid and we had a lovely canter. I was beaming and agreed to buy him. Apparently he's always been a lead horse, we rode out both times with another horse who was behind us. He also had a standing martingale on for this hack.


So he arrived 2 weeks ago, I gave him the first week to just settle. He got on fab with my mare. I kept my shetland separate as he is known to try and bully other geldings! He was great to do everything with, very straightforward compared to my mare. During the second week I rode him (in his snaffle) a couple of times in the rested part of the field next to the other horses and he was good. I took both horses out of the field to the stables separately when riding them to get them used to going away from each other. There was a bit of whinnying/running about but generally fine. However my mare has been in season the last few days and is like a limpet with the new boy. He is also very stuck to her!! They seem rather in love. However we managed a ride in the field during this time and he was fine. I tried letting the shetland in as he seemed to be glaring at the new boy less. However they went at loggerheads with the shetland coming off worse and who now is not allowed anywhere near my mare.

Sorry this is long but that's all a bit of background to help give the full picture!

On to the hack. Thought it was time to try a hack. My friend brought her horse down to hack out with me as thought it would be best to try first hack in company. Pelham on. No standing martingale. As soon as we walked out of the yard together he did turbo walk then got very upset, started prancing, did a rear/buck then reversed into a ditch. I got off wondering if I'd put the curb too tight. Didn't really think I had but loosened it off a link just in case. Got on, made it along to the field although he was upset and reversed into a fence at one point. Did a bit of walking round the field with my friends horse. All ok. Headed off again with me in the lead by some distance. Friends horse is also used to being in the front so she kept him well back so there wasn't any issues. Managed all the way out down the road but my horse was doing his turbo walk and whinnying his head off the whole way. Anytime my friend brought her horse anywhere close he was threatening to prance and rear. We got to a gate into an estate where you need to press a button to open the gates. Just managed to make him stand to press button, waited for gates to open then he absolutely launched through them in a fly rear! Carried on, made it to the other side of the estate when you have to press another button for the gates. He wasn't having that and threatened to rear and buck. I turned him in a couple of circles then asked him to approach the button again. At that point he launched forwards in a rear straight into a wire fence with just trees on the other side. I got flattened against his bum, he got tangled in the fence and I had to slide off the back. Miraculously neither of us were injured. At that point I'd had enough and told my friend to go and enjoy a bit of a longer hack and I'd lead mine home. He walked back fine in hand.

To say I was terrified was an understatement. I've had some hairy hacks on my mare but I don't think even she would have launched herself through a fence with trees on the other side. It was almost as if there'd been a wall there he might have done the same thing! Also marginally concerned that even without the extreme behaviour he may be a horse that won't let another horse walk alongside. My fault for not checking that.

Did I do something wrong do you think? Too soon for a hack with a new person in a new place? He seemed fairly settled generally! Has he maybe just got utterly attached to my mare? Should I have paid more heed to the first time I tried him when he was strong? I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but I was told he'd never reared or bucked, which may well be true, but the reactions he had were extreme to say the least. Maybe I've rushed him but I thought I'd bought a fairly established horse who was going to be my safe hacker and while I might have expected him to be a bit unsettled on his first hack I didn't expect what I got. My friend was gobsmacked at his behaviour.

Sorry it's long but if you've made it to the end thoughts would be appreciated. I'm fairly upset and confused as to how to progress with him. Not exactly thrilled at the prospect of getting back on to be honest.
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There are loads of factors at play here but I agree it will have hugely knocked your confidence so you need to either get the old owner to come & hack him or get a professional to hack him otherwise he will pick up on your nerves - tbh you've only given him one chance out on a hack which isn't a criticism as Id feel exactly the same in your situation but given that your mare is in season this hasn't helped him as he will no doubt have been unsettled by the move & now clinging to her - its instinct. lots of good advice here but you obviously really liked him to buy him so give him some more time with his old owner kept on side - good luck.
 
Having daid all that... I DID once have a Fell pony who I backed myself and she was fantastic. I hacked her everywhere and evented her unaff for a season. She never bucked, reared or ran off. And she almost never spooked. She was really easy. I sold her on at 5 to a teeenager who found her very hard to control and who contacted me to say she was tanking off with her.

However she was fine in that home for a few months before her behaviour went downhill. AND she was only 5. SO I can only assume that she had got a bit strong or rude a few times in the first few weeks and got away with it and it went downhill from here till she was bogging off at will. To be fair to the new owners they did accept she had not been missold and that it was the riding and not the pony! It does not sound like this is the situation you are in. And anyway I would never have sold her as a a safe hacking pony as she was only 5. She was sold as a pony who sofar had been good to hack but was young and needed an experienced rider.
 
Some buyer are dishonest and some are deluded given all the bull about bonding OP may be dealing with the deluded type .
OP has the wrong horse here a bit of spooking or being very on its toes is one thing bit if you trying to build confidence yourself this is not an issue you should be trying to tease out and fix yourself .
If you buy a horse as a safe hack then it must hack safely it might be lazy or carry its head badly or be crooked etc etc all these things I would tell OP to buckle down get some help and work on the issues .
Horses who are not straight forward who have been with one owner for years can be nightmares when you say no that’s not how we do it here and Op’s Is not up for a massive epic to get a hack .
 
The fact that he ran into wire has alarm bells ringing. A horse with no regard for its own safety is bloody dangerous. (I've been there). If there's any chance of returning the horse, I would. I'm really sorry about this op , I know it's very disappointing. (Just read another posters suggestion about the electric gates, that's worth investigating)
 
mule said:
The fact that he ran into wire has alarm bells ringing. A horse with no regard for its own safety is bloody dangerous. (I've been there). If there's any chance of returning the horse, I would. I'm really sorry about this op , I know it's very disappointing. (Just read another posters suggestion about the electric gates, that's worth investigating)
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I don’t think it is worth investigating it shows the degree to which the horse overreacts when things go a bit wrong or not his way .
 
Haven’t read all of the replies sorry, but you bought a second horse becausel you wanted a safe hack and he has showed himself to be anything but. The Pelham and standing martingale would have raised alarm bells for me and I do wonder whether the previous owner has had issues with him in the past and has had ‘back up equipment’ on him just in case. I don’t doubt he has probably been ok to hack with the previous owner, but she’s has had him a long time and they probably knew each other inside my out. Plus, many people hack horses on the same routes and the horse becomes fairly bombproof to those routes, but can change a bit when taken somewhere different.

I suppose you have a few choices, but either way, I would let the previous owner know that you aren’t happy and suss out whether there may be an option to send him back and get a refund.
You could ask the old owner to come down and hack him out and you accompany on foot behind. It would be interesting to see if his behaviour changes or indeed how the previous owner deals with it if it does arise.
You could work through it, and no doubt this can be done, but will require time, patience and confidence. I would fully understand if this isn’t something you wish to undertake, given that you bought the horse specifically for hacking.

I’d be inclined to send him back. The leaping into a wire fence is not a ‘usual’ reaction and would make me feel very vulnerable on a road. Is he likely to leap into the path of a car if he’s asked a question that he doesn’t like on the road?
 
Again thank you for all the advice!! So many conflicting opinions and ideas as expected. I'll try and answer a few points although may forget some.

I need to state again, I do understand not trusting sellers and I'm sort of in the middle with that one. I tend to try and believe people though. But surely if she was expecting trouble he'd have been in his pelham and standing martingale on that first hack? She seemed genuinely confused when I said I found him strong hence suggesting trying the second hack in the pelham. I have seen videos and photos of her hacking him on grass, on roads etc and he is in a snaffle with no martingale. I rode him that second week after I got him in the field in his snaffle with no martingale with no issues. Yes he was forward and a bit strong but I was working on using half halts and rewarding his slowing in pace and he was doing grand. He lunged during the first week like a gent and in hand hasn't put a foot wrong.

Mares and geldings - I've always kept them together with no issues, including one mare and one gelding together, or in groups. Clearly though there is a big issue here and one I should maybe have considered. My mare is the soppiest dope when in season so not helping.

I do absolutely think though that there could be a training issue here and not having it how he wanted it resulted in this reaction. I totally get a horse being unsettled but I don't think it should have triggered a reaction which was basically jumping into a wall of vegetation. The lack of self preservation is indeed my major concern here.

Is the old owner more experienced - I'm not sure, I wouldn't say massively. She got him having after looking for something to restore her confidence. She's older than me and was selling due to health issues. I had an ex-racehorse for 19 years prior to getting my current mare. She was certainly an easier mare, but she was spooky and could have a good old dance about but she was not dangerous in any way and we hacked everywhere together. Yes I can get nervous if a horse is threatening to go up (a horse reared and went over backwards with me and fractured my spine) but I'm not unused to a horse on it's toes. I'm not used to being launched down ditches and into fences. Who is?? :D

The gates may have exacerbated the situation I agree.

I don't think the old owner could come out til the weekend but I'm going to arrange that and in the meantime try and get on board in the field and on a very short hack with someone on foot.

Rode the dippy thoroughbred last night and it was a much more pleasant experience than my safe cob haha!

However I think I'm erring towards basically this not being the horse for me. If that's what he's capable of, even under stress, well I don't think I'll trust him. Maybe it was just extreme stress he was feeling. But I'm not sure he should have been really as many have said.
 
scats said:
I’d be inclined to send him back. The leaping into a wire fence is not a ‘usual’ reaction and would make me feel very vulnerable on a road. Is he likely to leap into the path of a car if he’s asked a question that he doesn’t like on the road?
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Precisely one of my worries.

Re hacking different places - she said she'd moved yards a lot with him and she clearly boxed him and took him places for hacks. The second time I rode she boxed him to a park near me where he'd only been once before. So not a place he was familiar with.

I should have been worried by the pelham and martingale I suppose but her reasoning sounded sensible to me.
 
Akkalia1 said:
However I think I'm erring towards basically this not being the horse for me. If that's what he's capable of, even under stress, well I don't think I'll trust him. Maybe it was just extreme stress he was feeling. But I'm not sure he should have been really as many have said.
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I think that is the decision I would have come to under the circumstances. There is unsettled in a new home and then there is this horse's reaction, which is not what I would expect from a 'safe hack'.
 
LegOn said:
No I meant as in her eyes the horse might have been bombproof cause she had no reason not to believe that because she was the only one to hack him & in all places he was familiar. So honestly, she might 'believe' he is that way but my point was it might not be the reality. It's all relative!
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And also, in my experience some people's idea of 'bombproof' and 'quiet to ride' are very different to mine!
 
mule said:
The fact that he ran into wire has alarm bells ringing. A horse with no regard for its own safety is bloody dangerous. (I've been there). If there's any chance of returning the horse, I would. I'm really sorry about this op , I know it's very disappointing. (Just read another posters suggestion about the electric gates, that's worth investigating)
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Hmm it could have been a one off. One of my horses (now retired) did this in the first couple of months when I bought him - he spooked at something, turned and went straight through a barbed wire fence on a hack. However, he never did that again.

OP, have you told the previous owners - they're your first port of call IMO, they know the horse far better than any of us and you said they had a close bond so hopefully she'd be really honest and helpful.
 
Goldenstar said:
If you can send him back do so without delay .
This is not your problem to fix
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I strongly suspect she would take him back but I also strongly suspect there would be no refund. Not sure what to do in this case. I don't want to lose the money but I don't really want to have to try and sell him.

I think if he goes back I don't have the energy to try this again. After losing the first one to grass sickness and then coming close to serious injury on the second I think I'll just stick with my mare. Do the dressage we enjoy and work on getting her out boxed out to hacks in places where there is far less big traffic.
 
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