Awful hack on new horse

Akkalia1 said:
I strongly suspect she would take him back but I also strongly suspect there would be no refund. Not sure what to do in this case. I don't want to lose the money but I don't really want to have to try and sell him.

I think if he goes back I don't have the energy to try this again. After losing the first one to grass sickness and then coming close to serious injury on the second I think I'll just stick with my mare. Do the dressage we enjoy and work on getting her out boxed out to hacks in places where there is far less big traffic.
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Take proper advice if you car BHS gold member use the legal helpline or sometimes some fire legal advice is part of your home insurance .
She can’t just keep your money .
Just because she’s a private owner does not mean she’s can sell you a safe bombproof hack that goes over wire fences .
I don’t know how much you paid but I would be prepared if I where you to lose a bit of the purchase price to get out of it quickly and without fuss .
And learn from this , the signs where there walk away if you are unsure .
There are loads of thing I could tell you to try to get through this with the horse but I just don’t think you should do when your guts tell this is wrong and when you are riding the other horse and are happy listen to your sixth sense .
Nothing is worse than getting smashed up by a badly trained boneheaded idiot of a horse when your guts where telling you not to do it .
 
I'd certainly class one of my horses as a bombproof/safe hack, as she is safe in all traffic, even the largest of lorries. However for a novice/nervous rider she'd be a nightmare to hack as she's so spooky, she'd have them off in two minutes!
 
fredflop said:
I'd certainly class one of my horses as a bombproof/safe hack, as she is safe in all traffic, even the largest of lorries. However for a novice/nervous rider she'd be a nightmare to hack as she's so spooky, she'd have them off in two minutes!
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How can a bombproof horse be spooky?
 
I have not read all the replies but I had a similar situation with my new horse last year.. He took a good three months to settle. He reared, spun ,napped, constantly spooked initially but is now a fabulous hack. I am nervous and was looking for a safe kick along hack. When I tried him the ground was awful so could only walk around a small muddy paddock ( no hacking available) and he was a slow, slow plod. His owner assured me he was a safe quiet hack and gave me a months trial she was so convinced he was ok. Our first hack was awful - he spun, jogged, neighed constantly - when I contacted his owner she was amazed and said he had never jogged with her and didn't think he was capable! I didn't think she would have given me a month's trial if he was anything other than as described so I persevered but he reared ( only small) and spooked and spun a lot for at least three weeks and I got off and walked more than I rode! He was slightly better after a month and his owner agreed to a further months trial she was so sure he would be ok. At the end of the second month he had improved a lot so I bought him - a further three months on and he is a lovely chilled hack. I led him a short route a couple of times, then rode the same route for the bits I felt safe and led the other bits until I gradually rode the whole route. - it was slow progress but it worked for us. -Good luck.
 
I guess the same as the cavalry dude said the other day that mass flag waving crowds are fine, the odd crisp packet remains an issue.

If you want a quiet life you ride mine down the A38, next to the high speed railway or across the motorway, seems to keep the mind busy from finding idle things to worry about like purple flowers.
 
blitznbobs said:
How can a bombproof horse be spooky?
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It depends on how you're using the term 'bombproof'. My 21yo TB is bombproof in traffic, massive lorries/tractors/rattly trailers/motorbikes/scooters etc, he will not bat an eye (quite literally now, as he only has one!). However, show him a drain cover or patch of new tarmac and he will have a good spook! He is generally laid back but definitely has a TB brain and can be sharp at times so would not be suitable for a novice or nervous rider.
 
Having read your posts and the various replies it would certainly seem that this is not the bombproof hack you thought you were buying. I also don't have any truck with this 'bonding' thing. FWIW it wouldn't bother me that the horse had a standing martingale on when you tried him the second time although the fact that she had both a pelham and standing martingale would suggest that they had had to be used in the past.

If you like the horse in other ways it would be worth getting some-one like Michael Peace to get him going out hacking although this won't be a cheap option. It does sound as though the issues could be fixed but it does depend on how much you want to keep this horse.
 
To me "bombproof" is "doesn't over-react to the unexpected", not "good in traffic", which would be described as - well - "good in traffic". They're entirely different things - my least bombproof horse is saintly in all traffic, from squeezing past tractors on narrow roads, through cars and motorbikes haring past at speed, to meeting emergency vehicles with their sirens on without flinching. He jumps out of his skin at pigeons flying up in the distance, stares in horror at suspicious butterflies, and has been known to spin because a patch of grass looks funny. My most bombproof horse - his evil twin - doesn't care about anything like that, but does find heavy traffic a bit overwhelming (though he remains pretty mannerly - you just feel him tense up).
 
JFTD said:
To me "bombproof" is "doesn't over-react to the unexpected", not "good in traffic", which would be described as - well - "good in traffic". They're entirely different things - my least bombproof horse is saintly in all traffic, from squeezing past tractors on narrow roads, through cars and motorbikes haring past at speed, to meeting emergency vehicles with their sirens on without flinching. He jumps out of his skin at pigeons flying up in the distance, stares in horror at suspicious butterflies, and has been known to spin because a patch of grass looks funny. My most bombproof horse - his evil twin - doesn't care about anything like that, but does find heavy traffic a bit overwhelming (though he remains pretty mannerly - you just feel him tense up).
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The OP makes reference to him being bombproof in traffic in her first post. Bombproof is a term that is open to varying interpretation, there was a similar post on a FB group recently.

OP if you like the horse enough, then it may be worth trying to get some help to see if the hacking issue resolves itself. If you feel that one hack has done too much damage trust and confidence wise, then you will have to see if the old owner will take him back (and refund you!) or see if you can sell him.
 
AandK said:
The OP makes reference to him being bombproof in traffic in her first post. Bombproof is a term that is open to varying interpretation, there was a similar post on a FB group recently.
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But we have digressed into a discussion in which someone described a horse as both bombproof and spooky which is - in my opinion - a contradiction in terms.
 
JFTD said:
To me "bombproof" is "doesn't over-react to the unexpected", not "good in traffic", which would be described as - well - "good in traffic".
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I completely agree. Bombproof means exactly what it says - so good they wouldn't react to a bomb going off! Spooking at pigeons/ drain covers etc is not bomb proof, no matter how good the horse is in other ways.
 
JFTD said:
But we have digressed into a discussion in which someone described a horse as both bombproof and spooky which is - in my opinion - a contradiction in terms.
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Quite. I wouldn't describe a horse that was spooky, especially one that was spooky enough to get people off, as bombproof.

For what it's worth he does not seem spooky. During the times when he wasn't launching me into stuff he passed bags in bushes, went over bridges, past a school playground and had some cars pass pretty fast without a flinch. I mean he was still whinnying his head off but he does not seem the spooky sort in general.

On our second trial hack the park we were going round had a golf course in the middle. At some points we were very close to the tees so all of a sudden someone would tee off right next to us with a loud crack. Not bothered at all.
 
Yes, from what you describe he doesn't sound spooky, just a bit prone to being silly and like he hasn't been taught to stand still. He almost just sounds a bit green, as in he has that baby horse tenancy for his brain and emotions to run away with themselves without regulation.
 
I'm incredibly suspicious of the old owner I'm afraid. If my horse was great to ride, and never strong, I find it highly unlikely I would own a Pelham and a standing martingale. My old boy was fab, he had been strong when younger, which I would never have denied, but by 12 was an absolute dude, rideable by anyone. I would have expected him to get straight off the lorry and hack out in a new place with a total stranger. If he hadn't I would have been straight over to see what the devil was going on. I don't also understand why this horse was for sale if they were so 'bonded'.
 
I can not understand why people seem to think that a horse has only one pattern of behaviour. A lot will have a trigger that will override any training and they go in to flight mode, where all they want to do is run away.

I have had two which had this trigger that I would describe as bomb proof safe rides. One was frightened to death of being beaten if he did anything wrong, he never showed this behaviour with us but my daughter who was 14 had lessons with a 'pro' rider and she tried riding him and the horse became tense and unhappy soon as she got on and then as she tried to get hold of him basically bolted with her in the school and stuck himself in the corner a shivering wreck. He reverted back to his normal placid self when my daughter next rode him.

The other is a Welsh A that we have owned most of his life, he did LR,PC, WHP and hunted with both my children and I would say he is one of the safest least reactive ponies we have ever owned. When the children grew too big I had him broken to drive, which he took to really well, but whilst out one day he became frightened of a plastic bag floating in the air about 15ft away from him and tried to bolt. I managed to stop him by running him into a gate. He is now petrified of plastic bags, not the ones held in your hands, he associates that with food, but bags that blown in the wind in his eye line.
I would try to avoid hacking or keep to a route that you know he is happy with and hack with company and try and work out what the trigger and reduce both your stress levels. It may be that he will never over come it and you may have to move him on.
As to the old owner taking him back. You can never really predict how a horse will react in a new environment, I bought a pony from a friend, I had known the pony for four years, we did PC and competitions together so he travelled with ours. After buying him I realised he had severe separation anxiety, you could not leave him tied up on his own, to the point I could not leave him to open the car boot when he was tied to the trailer. She didn't know and I didn't know this until we took him out on his own for the first time. When we moved yards to traditional stables I couldn't get him a stable without him trying to come out over the door for six months. Our previous stabling had grills or low partitions, so again this was not known behaviour. In every other way he was perfect and could be ridden by anyone.
Horses teach you that you know nothing really.
 
honetpot said:
I can not understand why people seem to think that a horse has only one pattern of behaviour. A lot will have a trigger that will override any training and they go in to flight mode, where all they want to do is run away.

I have had two which had this trigger that I would describe as bomb proof safe rides. One was frightened to death of being beaten if he did anything wrong, he never showed this behaviour with us but my daughter who was 14 had lessons with a 'pro' rider and she tried riding him and the horse became tense and unhappy soon as she got on and then as she tried to get hold of him basically bolted with her in the school and stuck himself in the corner a shivering wreck. He reverted back to his normal placid self when my daughter next rode him.

The other is a Welsh A that we have owned most of his life, he did LR,PC, WHP and hunted with both my children and I would say he is one of the safest least reactive ponies we have ever owned. When the children grew too big I had him broken to drive, which he took to really well, but whilst out one day he became frightened of a plastic bag floating in the air about 15ft away from him and tried to bolt. I managed to stop him by running him into a gate. He is now petrified of plastic bags, not the ones held in your hands, he associates that with food, but bags that blown in the wind in his eye line.
I would try to avoid hacking or keep to a route that you know he is happy with and hack with company and try and work out what the trigger and reduce both your stress levels. It may be that he will never over come it and you may have to move him on.
As to the old owner taking him back. You can never really predict how a horse will react in a new environment, I bought a pony from a friend, I had known the pony for four years, we did PC and competitions together so he travelled with ours. After buying him I realised he had severe separation anxiety, you could not leave him tied up on his own, to the point I could not leave him to open the car boot when he was tied to the trailer. She didn't know and I didn't know this until we took him out on his own for the first time. When we moved yards to traditional stables I couldn't get him a stable without him trying to come out over the door for six months. Our previous stabling had grills or low partitions, so again this was not known behaviour. In every other way he was perfect and could be ridden by anyone.
Horses teach you that you know nothing really.
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So very true honetpot - you never quite know what uve got until uve got it & by then its too late! all us horse owners must just love the stress of it all!!!
 
zaminda said:
I'm incredibly suspicious of the old owner I'm afraid. If my horse was great to ride, and never strong, I find it highly unlikely I would own a Pelham and a standing martingale. My old boy was fab, he had been strong when younger, which I would never have denied, but by 12 was an absolute dude, rideable by anyone. I would have expected him to get straight off the lorry and hack out in a new place with a total stranger. If he hadn't I would have been straight over to see what the devil was going on. I don't also understand why this horse was for sale if they were so 'bonded'.
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As I said earlier in the thread she is selling for her health reasons. Which seem legitimate.

As I also said, he wasn't in the pelham and standing for the first hack, only the second after I said I found him strong. She said she'd only used the pelham for the first couple of weeks riding after a yard move as that was the only time she'd found him strong. Videos and photos of him hacking with her in his old home show him in a snaffle and no martingale.

Maybe you're right and she has been dishonest, but currently I can't see any evidence of that. Barring his behaviour with me at the weekend obviously. But that could very well have been triggered but the situation. However, my problem is his reaction was so extreme I'm worried this could be a pattern that emerges when he's under some stress.
 
Akkalia1 said:
As I said earlier in the thread she is selling for her health reasons. Which seem legitimate.

As I also said, he wasn't in the pelham and standing for the first hack, only the second after I said I found him strong. She said she'd only used the pelham for the first couple of weeks riding after a yard move as that was the only time she'd found him strong. Videos and photos of him hacking with her in his old home show him in a snaffle and no martingale.

Maybe you're right and she has been dishonest, but currently I can't see any evidence of that. Barring his behaviour with me at the weekend obviously. But that could very well have been triggered but the situation. However, my problem is his reaction was so extreme I'm worried this could be a pattern that emerges when he's under some stress.
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But "Akkalia" the reaction you had although was horrendous could be put down to - new home, new rider, mare in season, electric gates, change of very long term home - we bought a pony who jumped out of her stable the first night then tried to jump over breast bar four days later - but knowing her temperament we stuck with her & have worked through it - there's always going to be challenges & I think you can get through this with the old owner who you have seen on the videos hack him no problem - stick with him & at least give him the chance & time he deserves.
 
bubsqueaks said:
But "Akkalia" the reaction you had although was horrendous could be put down to - new home, new rider, mare in season, electric gates, change of very long term home - we bought a pony who jumped out of her stable the first night then tried to jump over breast bar four days later - but knowing her temperament we stuck with her & have worked through it - there's always going to be challenges & I think you can get through this with the old owner who you have seen on the videos hack him no problem - stick with him & at least give him the chance & time he deserves.
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Yes it could well be. This is my dilemma. But it was a very dangerous reaction. I am going to get old owner down and will see how the next week or two goes but I have to say my gut still says this will not be the right horse for me.
 
Akkalia1 said:
Yes it could well be. This is my dilemma. But it was a very dangerous reaction. I am going to get old owner down and will see how the next week or two goes but I have to say my gut still says this will not be the right horse for me.
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I know its very scary isn't it - when ours tried to jump breast bar I was blooming petrified & its taken a whole heap of time & money to get through it but we felt she was worth it - good luck I think youre doing the right thing trying to work through it together & if the situation doesn't improve then you always have options open to you.
 
Jumping out of a stable or over a breast bar, while potentially serious, are hardly comparable with a horse throwing itself blindly through a fence / tree line with a rider on board.

The previous owner may be on the level, and this is a weird freak reaction from the horse, or she may be honest but have trained the horse very poorly (a lack of manners, worldly experience and tolerance of other riders), or she may have set you up to see him as something which he doesn't seem to be - a safe hack, which is what the OP set out to buy.

I have to say, if someone found one of my (not strong, snaffle-mouthed) horses strong, my response wouldn't be "come back and try again in a pelham", it would be that there's something amiss in the communication between horse and rider, and I'd suggest they find something else, or come back and try them under my supervision so I can see what's going wrong.
 
JFTD said:
Jumping out of a stable or over a breast bar, while potentially serious, are hardly comparable with a horse throwing itself blindly through a fence / tree line with a rider on board.

The previous owner may be on the level, and this is a weird freak reaction from the horse, or she may be honest but have trained the horse very poorly (a lack of manners, worldly experience and tolerance of other riders), or she may have set you up to see him as something which he doesn't seem to be - a safe hack, which is what the OP set out to buy.

I have to say, if someone found one of my (not strong, snaffle-mouthed) horses strong, my response wouldn't be "come back and try again in a pelham", it would be that there's something amiss in the communication between horse and rider, and I'd suggest they find something else, or come back and try them under my supervision so I can see what's going wrong.
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And if I was buying a safe easy hack I would say no thanks and move on .
 
JFTD said:
Jumping out of a stable or over a breast bar, while potentially serious, are hardly comparable with a horse throwing itself blindly through a fence / tree line with a rider on board.

The previous owner may be on the level, and this is a weird freak reaction from the horse, or she may be honest but have trained the horse very poorly (a lack of manners, worldly experience and tolerance of other riders), or she may have set you up to see him as something which he doesn't seem to be - a safe hack, which is what the OP set out to buy.

I have to say, if someone found one of my (not strong, snaffle-mouthed) horses strong, my response wouldn't be "come back and try again in a pelham", it would be that there's something amiss in the communication between horse and rider, and I'd suggest they find something else, or come back and try them under my supervision so I can see what's going wrong.
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Agree it's a different kettle of fish.

And well yes, this seems to have been my error in seeing her point about trying a pelham and he was blinking perfect in it. But I am where I am now unfortunately.
 
Akkalia1 said:
Well yes, I suppose I got this wrong. Ignored a warning sign.
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I don't think GS is trying to chastise you for ignoring a warning sign at the viewing - just saying there's no shame in saying that this is not the horse that you were trying to buy, and sending it back.

If it's any consolation - I ignored a warning sign at a viewing too, miscommunication with the mare caused her to knob off in the arena. I bought her anyway, because I understood what had happened, and she has the best brakes of any horse I've ever had. It's hard to predict how these things will pan out.
 
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My chestnut mare who I've had for years is a super hack. However I have had her at three different yards over that time and when I first moved her to yard number two, she turned into a rocket fueled, over-reactive, stress head. She took about three months (IIRC) to fully get back to her normal self. If I hadn't already owned her, I'd have been having all sorts of doubts and fears in my mind, but I knew it was the move and that she'd come right with time. The next time I moved her, two of her field mates came too and she took that one in her stride.
 
JFTD said:
I don't think GS is trying to chastise you for ignoring a warning sign at the viewing - just saying there's no shame in saying that this is not the horse that you were trying to buy, and sending it back.
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I didn't mean to sound offended, I'm not. I can see the point that I may have made a bit of a mistake here. I'm not entirely sure how easy it is going to be to send the horse back now actually. Owner is coming completely out of horses due to health problems and selling box etc, so while I initially thought she'd take him back I'm not so sure now. Will see though!
 
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