Awkward situation wwyd?

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Maybe?

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A bit of back story: I (25yo female) rent a yard for my horses. My mum (65) keeps her young pony there too.. since she kept me in ponies throughout my childhood, and her youngster is no trouble, I have not asked for a contribution to rent. She comes down to see him 4 x per week and on the other days I look after him. Mum and I generally have a sound happy relationship with one issue that has just reared its ugly head :(

One of my horses is my old pony club/hunter mare who now has cushings( diagnosed about 3 months ago). She has pergolide and restricted turnout. Though she looks older (at 27, after a lifetime of hunting and eventing hard with me she's doing rather well!) she's still happy and bright and can always be found playing with the youngsters and keeping everyone in line!

I have been told by my vet that she must stay on a very low sugar diet. I have found what works to keep her happy and bright, but as some older horses do, she has lost a lot of her top line and her ribs are faintly visible.

Mum does not like this, or approve of her diet. It started of with little hints and niggles but now I get a full on lecture every time we are at the yard together. She is of the old fashioned belief that a bit of grass cures all, and thinks that I should be turning the mare out on more grass and upping her feed to get a bit more weight on her.

I have tried giving her articles on cushings management but she doesn't seem to be able to take it in or apply it to my mare.. despite us having plenty of lami ponies in the past who were given a low sugar diet and correct management!

I started to notice last week that she was avoiding being at the yard at the same time as me. I have since found oats/grain feed on the floor of the mares stable (she does not get this usually) and found unshod hoof prints in the mud around a lush grass verge that looked as if it'd been grazed down (on a gated property, all the others are shod so I know they must belong to the mare)

I have confronted her about these things and she denies them. For now, I have taken to turning the mare out in her paddock around the times that mum might be down, and taking the padlock key home with me... obviously this isn't sustainable. I have no doubt in my mind that it is her feeding the mare as no one else visits the yard.

What do I do? Ask her to take her youngster else where, only do supervised visits to the yard? I can't have her putting the mares life at risk like this!

I'm completely puzzled. I don't want to do anything to drastic.. Mum and I have a really good relationship and this is very out of character :(
 
Tricky for you. Could you get your mother and vet to speak about this mare and how she needs to be managed?
 
Thanks! She held the mare when she had her follow up blood test to check the prascend dose.. I don't know how much she payed attention to what was said though as it wasn't really an issue for her at that point. I might see if my vet will speak to her, but it does seem quite a petty thing to get him involved in!
 
Instead of confronting her or making passing comments at the yard, how about taking her out for lunch (or other event lol) and discussing it with her, in depth. Too much sugar in the diet is bad for all sorts of things not just Cushings - sweetitch and laminitis to name but two, could you take along some info from safergrass.org or The Laminitis site? It really is a case of old school vs new ideas so you are going to have to persuade her that ideas have changed. Lunch might do it?
 
I wasn't thinking of getting the vet out specially to speak toher...just see if she can be there (but it sounds like she was anyway).
I think a sit down talk saying to your mum that you are worried about your mare's health, that its extremely important that she has a low sugar diet and that the sugar is far more dangerous for her than her losing a bit of condition could be.
 
I might go a slightly different route, which will do no harm but may pacify your mum if she feels the mare needs more condition, by reaching a compromise where you leave some well soaked hay ready so she can feed that, she will be giving something safe, it will be controlled by you and should satisfy your mum in regards to the weight loss, oats/ grains/ grass and obviously anything sugary are harmful and will not really make any difference to her weight but could be harmful, a few pounds of soaked hay to top up her fibre intake could be beneficial to her as you go into the winter.

I don't think it is old school vs new ideas, I am fairly old school and have always known the dangers of grass even if cushings is only a relatively recently recognised condition laminitis has been round for years and getting them off grass was always the first stage in treating or preventing it.
 
I agree that a good chat with your mum is the best approach. I would start off by saying that you don't want it to spoil your relationship with her and that you value her input and want her to continue to share the yard...but....And then just take it from there. If necessary you could ask the vet to give her a call directly to put her straight, can't see it would do any harm and like you say she's putting your horses life in danger, therefore I don't think its an over reaction.
 
Tell her you are really upset because she is making you murder the mare next week .. when she asked what the hell you mean tell her that because she cant be trusted you are having to make the decision to put the mare to sleep rather than let her suffer with the extra grass and feeds that you know she is giving her. Give her the option ... keep going the way she is and the mare gets PTS or back off and stop interfering and the mare lives.
 
I would bring out the waterworks! Rather than accusing her directly a nice display of 'stressed' you are worried that someone has been in and feeding her and it's obviously not Mum because you know she would never put your beloved horses life at risk like that etc etc
 
One of my liveries at my previous yard was a self-confessed "feeder" - and I dealt with the situation by having a supply of D&H Cushcare, which she was allowed to plunder when she felt the urge to give her old cushingoid boy some extra grub. He was a bit poor, so it didn't do him any harm, and it made her happy!
 
ihatework said:
I would bring out the waterworks! Rather than accusing her directly a nice display of 'stressed' you are worried that someone has been in and feeding her and it's obviously not Mum because you know she would never put your beloved horses life at risk like that etc etc
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Id do this too! Id probably throw in a little fib that you were really worried as your pony looked pottery the other day and you believe it was caused by whoever this person is that would be doing what she's doing especially when all you've done is take veterinary advice! If the pony is losing weight though already before the winter, can you not give it more hay? Obviously more grass is a no go but I struggled with one of mine who was cushings losing weight - hay (not amazing sweet stuff) was the only thing that vaguely kept it on. If she saw you giving him hay regularly then surely that'd keep her happier, not that its anything to do with her.
 
How is your Mum? Is there something upsetting her in general that might have kicked this off? I'd start with just trying to ascertain what's going on in her life right now, you might just find an explanation for the change in behaviour since I assume she's been OK with not feeding this mare before.
 
be positive said:
I might go a slightly different route, which will do no harm but may pacify your mum if she feels the mare needs more condition, by reaching a compromise where you leave some well soaked hay ready so she can feed that, she will be giving something safe, it will be controlled by you and should satisfy your mum in regards to the weight loss, oats/ grains/ grass and obviously anything sugary are harmful and will not really make any difference to her weight but could be harmful, a few pounds of soaked hay to top up her fibre intake could be beneficial to her as you go into the winter.

I don't think it is old school vs new ideas, I am fairly old school and have always known the dangers of grass even if cushings is only a relatively recently recognised condition laminitis has been round for years and getting them off grass was always the first stage in treating or preventing it.
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As you say your relationship with your Mother is a good one and she kept you in ponies throughout your childhood, I would go for the hay option above ^^ until you can work out a better idea........ my Mother was a polo giving fanatic, not just one or two polo's but 1 or 2 packets but it didn't help that the EMS pony in question would look cute and keep begging with her foreleg, I quietly hid the polo's and then she found the apples, I was forever hiding things during my Mother's visits............... good luck it is tricky for you
 
My horse is 38 and only diagnosed cushings nov 15, he had mild lami approx 12 years prior. He has always been on a high fibre diet as he was sharp and spooky, retired now.

You are doing the correct thing with the diet, as someone else suggests, a conversation with the vet with her present might change her view. HOPEFULLY

If that doesn't work I'd say do you want to make her have laminitis ?
 
How about offering her some Bailey's high fibre nuggets to give pony? Think are pretty low in everything and will make her feel like she's doing something.

As an aside, I thought once properly medicated, cushings horses weren't that sugar sensitive once levels controlled. Or is that wrong?
 
I dont think its old school versus new school! Im 65 and know all about laminitis cushings etc and have done since I was 14!
Maybe your mum considers the oldie to be hers? Did she buy her for you when you were young? Maybe she thinks the horse is better off having a short enjoyable last few years left of her life than many 'managed and on diet' ones?
The only thing the two of you can do is sit down and have a good chat!!
 
i would also suggest the soaked hay idea... if your pony is losing weight now then some hay wont hurt and would be much better for her than extra feed or grass. i am 71 and have been around horses for over 50 years and when my mare was diagnosed with cushings i did as much research as i could to find the best way to manage her (with my vets help as well) so i would also try and get your vet to speak to your mum and try and get her on your side, mums are special and it would be a shame to fall out seriously with her....good luck
 
Thank you for all of your help and advice guys. I will take her out to lunch and have a proper sit down talk to her about it, and see if I can get our vet to speak to her or provide some relevant articles for her to read. What worries me is that she has gone behind my back to feed the horse, and is still denying it.. so I'm not sure how much notice she will take and how I'm supposed to trust her not to feed the mare afterwards?

I do actually provide ad lib soaked hay already, so at no point is she actually stood around looking hungry.. she also isn't under weight, just has that old horse pot belly sunken back look :'( Ironically when she was in full health it was rare for mum to even go near her... something something crazy chestnut mare!! ;) :)
 
What about buying some special conditioning pellets which are actually something like fibre pellets and telling her she's right and can she give her this food the vet has prescribed?
 
You could say that someone unknown is feeding the horses and you are worried about them, so you are having cctv put into the stables and yard.
 
FfionWinnie said:
What about buying some special conditioning pellets which are actually something like fibre pellets and telling her she's right and can she give her this food the vet has prescribed?
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She is already on a diet planned in accordance with our vet.. When not on her current diet she starts to get footy and show signs of laminitis so I am reluctant to make too many changes :( That being said it would be better for her to be having fibre pellets than my other horse's competition mix!!!

I am fairly certain that it is her who is doing the feeding - the feed is kept in a locked tack room to which we are the only two to hold keys :)
 
Is it possible your mum knows the risks but thinks she's better off having a shorter but happier (in her eyes) retirement rather than being on a diet? I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that this may be the way your mum sees it?

A friend has taken this approach with her 24year old boy. He has cushings and is, frankly, obese but she'd rather him be happy out in the field for a shorter time than spending most of his time in a stable for the sake of a few extra months/years of that existence. He's always been a big horse and has been obese for about 3 years since he retired but amazingly hasn't had any problems other than a touch of arthritis which is managed with bute (and for which being out 24/7 helps). I hope I've phrased it properly, I don't want what she's doing to sound callous - that she's hastening his demise - because that's not her motivation at all, she just wants him to be happy and that means out with his friends. She's prepared to pay the price of losing him sooner for him to be happy now.
 
annagain said:
Is it possible your mum knows the risks but thinks she's better off having a shorter but happier (in her eyes) retirement rather than being on a diet? I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that this may be the way your mum sees it?

A friend has taken this approach with her 24year old boy. He has cushings and is, frankly, obese but she'd rather him be happy out in the field for a shorter time than spending most of his time in a stable for the sake of a few extra months/years of that existence. He's always been a big horse and has been obese for about 3 years since he retired but amazingly hasn't had any problems other than a touch of arthritis which is managed with bute (and for which being out 24/7 helps). I hope I've phrased it properly, I don't want what she's doing to sound callous - that she's hastening his demise - because that's not her motivation at all, she just wants him to be happy and that means out with his friends. She's prepared to pay the price of losing him sooner for him to be happy now.
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I think perhaps there are elements of this, however said horse does not belong to her and she has never had a major role in her care.. therefore I don't really feel like it's my mothers decision to make.. especially not behind my back and without expressing her feelings first :)

If I had my way, she would have more of the life you describe, however should she get any more sugars than she already is, she starts to show signs of laminitis sadly. She is never without her friends and a constant soaked hay supply and is bright and happy in herself x
 
I made the decision with my old tb who was on prascend that the day he couldn't live his life like a normal horse would be the day we called it a day, so to speak. He was diagnosed with cushings at 22, had normal turnout, although I was careful not to put him on too much grass the same as I would do with any horse and ad lib hay when in at night. He did get a feed of veteran vitality + some oil and although he had a bit of a pot belly and lost his topline, he was in good condition. He colicked last January aged 28 (almost certainly had an internal growth) and was pts. He never showed any sign of laminitis. It's so diffficult with an old horse but I wanted quality of life rather than length of life for him and in the end I think he got both. Ithink a good chat with your mum is in order.
 
oldie48 said:
I made the decision with my old tb who was on prascend that the day he couldn't live his life like a normal horse would be the day we called it a day, so to speak. He was diagnosed with cushings at 22, had normal turnout, although I was careful not to put him on too much grass the same as I would do with any horse and ad lib hay when in at night. He did get a feed of veteran vitality + some oil and although he had a bit of a pot belly and lost his topline, he was in good condition. He colicked last January aged 28 (almost certainly had an internal growth) and was pts. He never showed any sign of laminitis. It's so diffficult with an old horse but I wanted quality of life rather than length of life for him and in the end I think he got both. Ithink a good chat with your mum is in order.
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It sounds like you gave your boy a lovely life, and what a fair old age to get to at 28 :)

My system for my girl sounds very similar you yours.. long may it continue to keep her happy and healthy!
 
Maybe? said:
She is already on a diet planned in accordance with our vet.. When not on her current diet she starts to get footy and show signs of laminitis so I am reluctant to make too many changes :( That being said it would be better for her to be having fibre pellets than my other horse's competition mix!!!

I am fairly certain that it is her who is doing the feeding - the feed is kept in a locked tack room to which we are the only two to hold keys :)
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Ok well ask her to give her that feed when she's there an give the idea it's an extra feed even when it's not. If that doesn't work I think you'd have to just discuss it with her frankly.

Not sure how to put this without offending you but is she as sharp as she used to be and could that have something to do with it.
 
Gloi said:
As an aside, once the Prascend begins to work the pony should no longer look so old and ribby.
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This, I have started giving linseed to my Cushings mare to give her a bit more of a covering. She does have access to ad-lib hay and whatever grass she can find in the field she is in (which isn't much). You don't want her too fat but equally there is no reason for her to be thin. It does seem that their metabolism changes with this condition/medication and horses that were previously good doers, no longer are.

I don't understand the 'ageist' comments. I am pretty sure that those of us in our 60s all know plenty about laminitis!
 
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