B80(T): The technical element of XC

Decision_Tree

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Having read the comments on the BE80(T) course in the post below. I thought it would be interesting to look at the techincal level of these courses.

B80(T): By removing trotting into water etc then its making it more like a working hunter course set out in a big field. A horse and riders should meet all these types of obstacles at low level - giving confidence and allow a trot and a pop. I do think its strange that you dont even have to jump/drop into water until PN. Its vital to have cross country elements to every course - water, ditchs, banks, steps etc. Its something to test combinations and set apart the horses who are ready to move up and those who need more schooling. By this I mean: if you get good places at a level you should move up IMO and to be ready to do this you need to be able to cope with all these elements at that level as when u move up height level it effects not only the height from the ground but the width and also the height of the drop.

Yes its a training class but I think its design should be to bring in those who are new to BE and need guidance in then moving into Affliated and in particular a full BE ODE. Not training as in -never seen a XC course before.

What do others think? Should there be a certain level of techincal ability tested at each level?


Sorry for the rambling! got carried away!
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SillyMare

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I don't agree that a placing at one level means you are ready to move up.

A green horse with good dressage can easily place at PN where the jumps are small enough that silly mistakes aren't punished.

However that horse / rider combination might be MILES away from being ready to tackle a Novice track.

Personally, I am a fan of the Open Intro / PN concept where these horses / riders can compete safely. Personally I would like to see the open classes expanded to all events and any horse with 2 or 3 top 3 placings move into them.
 

Horsemad12

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Sorry I disagree. The lower level classes are about training the horse to do their job and gaining confidence. There can be a big difference between schooling where you would normally paddle through the water before asking the green horse to do the drop and doing a course with all of the added atmosphere and distractions.
At BE80 and 90 the courses should be simple and ask a few questions. A slope into water is just what a green horse needs to gain confidence. I think adding drops in at PN is at the right level.
 

kerilli

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I disagree, the lower levels should be about instilling confidence and good habits, and teaching, more than testing.
In the late 80s-early 90s a fence into water (even a smallish log on the edge of the step) wasn't allowed until Intermediate - or if it was, I never saw it. I did 5 seasons of novice on different horses and didn't see 1, the most we had was a step into water. Ditto a fence in water, i didn't meet one of those either until reaching Intermediate level.
Once the horse (and rider if necessary) have learnt how to gallop in rhythm, meet a nice variety of fences out of that rhythm, shorten, lengthen, turn, etc etc, THEN add in the questions to catch them out, imho.
 

joe_carby

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i dont actually event my self but i have alot of friend who do and i must say i feel the new introduction of all these lower classes are just another money spinning exersize asif eventing isnt expensive enough. schooling should be done at home going to specialist xc places and such like. i recently went to somerford park and did the farm ride (not schooling just something to do) and looked at the pre novice with me there was my partner her little brother whose 12 and his friend of the same age both on 13 hand ponies saying that the jumps we small and couldnt test a donkey there words and to some extent i feel i must agree they were tiny.

the xc element of a event should be a test of the bond trust and capabilites of a combination of horses and rider and in my opinion these should be strongly instilled at home and going to HT which are made at lower levels to give everyone a good oppertunity with out expense or pressure but will also give the environment of a competition day.

Sorry rant over.
 

kerilli

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but joe_carby, it's a money spinning exercise for BE, no one is required to do it. if you're brave and/or experienced, you can go straight in at Novice. BE do not insist on a certain number of runs at the lowest levels (apart for PN for juniors, which i think is good tbh)
and no-one is forcing anyone to do a BE(80) or BE(90). people can do unaff comps instead, if they so choose. in that respect i think BE has got it right, they offer the choice.
i think that the Training and Intro courses are pretty small, but I would not call PN 'tiny' or say it "couldn't test a donkey". Maybe the kids with you were on super ponies, maybe they could have flown round, or maybe it was just bravado and inexperience. I walked an Intermediate track once and a little girl stood at one combination (big step, bounce over a hanging log) and said "i think this is two strides". I said "it's a bounce" and she said "well, i think MY pony would do it on 2 strides." !!! hmm, I wouldn't like to have seen her try!
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PN is more like the N courses of old, quite technical in places, with log drops into water, skinnies in water at some, and even some biggish ditches etc at some. I once rode a horse for some owners who, for all my experience, bravery, and perseverance, unfortunately really did not have the bottle for PN!
 

FestiveSpirit

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Having read the responses to my thread on the BE80 course at Stockland, it has now clarified in my mind the reasons for doing a BE80 competition with Bob
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It is nothing about the technicality or otherwise of the XC course - I was pretty surprised how straightfoward the course was when I walked it yesterday, so I undoubtedly will come to grief now
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I would agree that I have ridden more challenging course in local hunter trials, and have XC schooled over more challenging obstacles and will continue to do so.

The reason I have selected that level of course for Bob is because (as I said on the other thread) it exposes him as a green inexperienced horse to a proper BE competition without any stress or angst being encountered on the course
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I strongly feel (IMHO of course
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) that a BE event is simply not the same as a local unaff ODE - or, as I have said on the other thread, not the ones we get around my way. So I want Bob to go eventing, and at the risk of sounding very anthropomorphic, have a 'positive experience' without stressing his tiny little TB brain
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Maybe this is why some people use the BE 80 classes?
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Holidays_are_coming

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I agree the lower levels are good as they give people the choice, I walked a PN the other week and was really shocked at how big and wide the fences were. As ive heard lots of people say going schooling is never the same as the event when both you and the horse is excited!

Someone else is eventing my horse for me at the moment as im not confident enough even for a BE 80 yet! Im off to have a go at a 2'3-2'6 hunter trial next week (at least if we have trouble I know I can carry on)! But the inro's she is doing are really helping her confidence to gallop and jump, and if she gets it wrong she can sort herself out before the fences get too big. (there is no chance of getting placed until we sort the dressage) But hopefully when she moves to PN she will be more confident and really to jump the bigger fences!

Hope that makes sense!
 

LEC

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BE80 was actually created in order to satisfy Sport England and Lottery funding requirements!
 

FestiveSpirit

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[ QUOTE ]
I agree the lower levels are good as they give people the choice, I walked a PN the other week and was really shocked at how big and wide the fences were. As ive heard lots of people say going schooling is never the same as the event when both you and the horse is excited!


[/ QUOTE ]

Couldnt agree more with you there TP - Bob has been great XC when competing, but was absolutely awful XC schooling at Sapey in cold blood
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If I am honest it has really knocked my faith in him (despite him going clear XC Intro at Broadway with my friend riding) and lets face it, it is all about having a good time when you compete
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siennamum

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I think in order to be educational for horse and rider there is a demand for these courses to be straightforward enabling the combo to jump from a rhythmic gallop with out anything which could be construed as trappy or technical.

I think there is an argument that to get a competition for all the people who want to have a go affiliated at this level, there could be more XC questions, requiring more technical fences & which are more challenging. There are almost two groups of competitors.
My feeling is that relatively technical small courses are available unaffiliated and at PC - although you can get some nighmare courses, for those that want to event at this level for 'fun' rather than to move up the levels.

The nighmare courses are an issue unaffiliated tho' - a recent one causing son & horse to have a horrendous fall. I'm starting to think that we shoudl have a crack at BE80 just to ensure the standard of course building is there. I will welcome the opportunity for him to learn to gallop on over a simple course, think it's what both of them need & will teach son how to make the time without having to jump anything too big.
 

ldlp111

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i just walked the be80 and be90 at stockland and dont think it is as easy as everyone is making out. be 80 -the first jump is a log yes mayb easy but first jumps should be! altho it does has what looked a flower tub under which would scare my horse. second jump was a house painted white, scary imo. there was brush jump a few varying style of palisades sharks teeth, a kind of tiger trap. two jumps on curve related of bout 3-4 strides didnt properly walk it then two palisades in row and you do have to run into water, then log on bank then another two palisades to finish. but i didnt think course was that straightforward plenty of places imo for a young horse to stop etc.
 

FestiveSpirit

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Have they marked the water properly now then? They hadnt yesterday as I said above, there were flags but no number indicating a fence?
 

ajn1610

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joe_carby were you looking at the correct fences at Somerford? You can see the event course as you come into the 'bowl' of the valley, as you go round the Farm Ride but not all the fences are on the BE track. The small permanent ones are not part of the BE course, they are for PC/RC competitions for beginers classes.
 

ldlp111

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yes it is number 15, there is no a or b part so i assume you just go in water between the flags obv then can exit wherever you.
 

FestiveSpirit

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Ah ha they have changed it since yesterday then, the log pile on the mound was fence 15 yesterday
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Sorry, ignore my question on the other thread, I was just hoping you would see and reply, thanks
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ldlp111

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well double check to be sure but im pretty sure like 99.9% sure.
i was bit confused actually coz i remembered you said there no water but on course map and jump info it had dew pond no 15 i guess they got abit confused when doing courses.
 

FestiveSpirit

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Thanks so much for that, I really appreciate it
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Luckily I've got hours between my dressage and SJ, and the dew pond is close by, so I shall wander over and have a look! Hope they havent changed anything else, or I will be running around the whole course for the fourth time tomorrow
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ldlp111

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thats ok i was curious after your post yesterday so thought id pop up and have a look. good luck for tomorrow
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Leg_end

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[ QUOTE ]
The lower level classes are about training the horse to do their job and gaining confidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this 110%. I am repeating myself on this subject but I have found it really difficult to find places that are good for educating young horses. All the unaffilated comps round here are twisty, trappy and don't have any gallopy stetches to make horses think forward and enjoy their XC experience.

I am planning on doing a couple of BE80's in July for several reasons but the main one being I am competition green, although I have competed up to the equivilant to Novice about 10 years ago, and horse is pretty green to the big atmosphere which has a tendancy to wind him up so I want a nice run without stressing about the height of fences and how many blooming skinnies there are in a BE90!!
 

suzysparkle

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I think the lower levels are a great idea for riding club type competitors (like me) who are sick of some of the ridiculous fences they throw in at unaffiliated. I did an intermediate unaffiliated last year (max height 3') which had a (fairly big with small rolltop) drop into water. It also had a double of big logs on a related stride landing straight onto a very steep long downwards slope. Having seen the BE intro held on the same course there was nothing like that and I would have been a lot happer jumping round it. Unfortuntately they just look at the fence height, not the other factors. I'd much rather do the BE80 / BE90 but can't justify the cost so I stick to Hunter paces now where you jump what you want. I like this as you can have a go at bigger jumps where you want, and take the easier ones where you want. I saw the pre-novice (had an easier route through the water - just a straight drop!) and although I have jumped some of the fences in training, doing the whole course is a bit much for me!! There is quite a big difference I think.
 

ajn1610

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I've found the same thing Leg-end, I don't think there is much on offer at Unaffililated. We are very well served round here for RCs but not all of them have the land/finance for a XC, if they do they are very plain, no water/steps, a ditch-rail and a couple of doubles if you are lucky and all crammed into one or two fields so very twisty - they are often not particularly well constructed and the ground is poor - hardly educational and confidence giving. The PC hire nice courses like Smallwood but it is really difficult to get a slot with entries closing weeks before the advertised date due to being inundated.
 

joe_carby

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as i did say and will hold my hands up i am not an eventer i dont have the patience to do dressage i like clear cut marking but i will admit the jumps did look tiny. both kids were on average all rounders no super expensive ponies. and both kids new there limits.

i persnoally dont agree with making classes smaller and smaller in any sphere you have unaffiliated for the smaller classes when you get good enough you then go affiliated in my eyes anyway.
 

rosiesmumof4

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whilst I agree wholeheartedlu about instilling confidence, and would agree that no more than a trot through water should be permitted at BE80 and 90 i guess I must have been jumping different novice tracks to kerilli in the late 80, early 90's - ime it was standard to find a fairly beefy jump into water - murton had a sizeable log, clumber had a little upturned boat, b burton had some rails - if it's worked below is me jumping into the water there in 1991
 

MegaBeast

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[ QUOTE ]

in any sphere you have unaffiliated for the smaller classes when you get good enough you then go affiliated in my eyes anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, there are only a handful of unaffiliated events round here, and then at only about two different venues and if I'm having to travel any distance then I would rather travel to a venue where I can be assured of the standard of course building.

When BE80(T) first started I was very sceptical about its use and couldn't understand why people didn't just go unaffiliated but having looked into what's available then there is definitely a place for them
 

joe_carby

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well that fair enough then as i said im not an eventer so dont no to what level unaff comps are available.
 

Decision_Tree

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[ QUOTE ]

the xc element of a event should be a test of the bond trust and capabilites of a combination of horses and rider and in my opinion these should be strongly instilled at home and going to HT which are made at lower levels to give everyone a good oppertunity with out expense or pressure but will also give the environment of a competition day.

Sorry rant over.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something I very much agree on - its a test of the trust. The smaller courses still need something to test the bond - a trot through water, small drops, ditches etc. There are classes as small as 2ft unaffliated that you can go to for a straight run for confidence, theres been an huge increase in the schooler type classes over the years.

Comments abouting walking the courses mentioned: white house like fences - popular at unaff and aff, a test as horse not expecting white but then again is the colour of many a showjump so not a completely new thing. Flowers - a natural thing to have around a jump, to a horse its colours again and something it has showjumped - you even see them by SJs and around dressage arenas.....

And ultimately - if your not confident about doing it then you should be doing it at all. Miss it out if you dont want to jump it.
 
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