BA to serve Halal only meals !

EAST KENT said:
But it is the bleeding out that kills,done for meat quality reasons as well,some of the F@M animals just shot did`nt die,sadly,very quickly..think the roding bit was the essential bit as well.
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No it isn't. Did you actually read my post before you quoted me? The animals are bolted through the brain so are actually brain dead (and in some abertoirs a rod is pushed through the hole to ensure it) before their throats are slit.

Edit - I am basing this on my experience when working in a abertoir, not of what I have read off google...
 
perfect11s said:
yes im not saying any religion is perfect far from it but at least christanty has moved on with the new testament where as the koran is the same old same old!! and is interpreted literally by far too many of its followers who never question or allow it to be reinterperated ...
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On the contrary. I think most normal every day Muslims are continually questioning what they are doing or if they are interpreting the teachings in the right way. There are wild differences between fundementalists and regular Muslims. Just like in Christianity there are huge differences between regular CofE followers and some of the spinoff churches which still come under umbrella of Christianity even though they are so far removed from what regular Christians do. I think you will find that many of the unsettled are the children and grandchildren of the original immigrants. Many of this younger generations can feel displaced. They know they are British because they were born in Britain but they feel a need to cling to roots. The first generation immigrants are quite different from later generations as they chose to come to Britain so quietly continued their lives trying to keep out of public glare. Some of the younger generations, especially those who do not travel back to their parents homeland regularly, are not able to accept the diversity of cultures, the struggles that go on in homelands along with the differences and compromises their parents had to make when they came to Britain. The vast majority of Muslims including younger generations are law abiding citizens who cause little to no problem, just as the vast majority of Christian people and their younger generations cause no problems in society. Sadly there are always a small minority in all religions who make a bad name for the whole religion.

The government should stand by what they decide as a law. If animals must be stunned before killing then that should be the way it is for all. If that is the law of the land then so it should be. Most Muslims are keen to fit in and so do not have problem with animals being stunned before slaughter. This law if it was blanket would affect Jews much more but would only affect small pockets of Muslims and then only for short time as each Imam would have to adapt their view on teachings to comply with law. Those who object loudly rarely speak for majority.
 
Rubbish, good muslims don't want to integrate. Did you know they have over 85 sharia courts in this country already, our courts are not good enough? Having seen Anjem Choudary burning the USA flag outside the US embassy on 9/11 and then seeing the videos of the protests against the pope I think as important as animal welfare is, the creeping islamification going on in this country is even more worrying.. look up M.A.C. and M.D.L. and educate yourselves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awSd-Pno1rY&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNZQ5D8IwfI
 
jaypeebee said:
On the contrary. I think most normal every day Muslims are continually questioning what they are doing or if they are interpreting the teachings in the right way. There are wild differences between fundementalists and regular Muslims. Just like in Christianity there are huge differences between regular CofE followers and some of the spinoff churches which still come under umbrella of Christianity even though they are so far removed from what regular Christians do. I think you will find that many of the unsettled are the children and grandchildren of the original immigrants. Many of this younger generations can feel displaced. They know they are British because they were born in Britain but they feel a need to cling to roots. The first generation immigrants are quite different from later generations as they chose to come to Britain so quietly continued their lives trying to keep out of public glare. Some of the younger generations, especially those who do not travel back to their parents homeland regularly, are not able to accept the diversity of cultures, the struggles that go on in homelands along with the differences and compromises their parents had to make when they came to Britain. The vast majority of Muslims including younger generations are law abiding citizens who cause little to no problem, just as the vast majority of Christian people and their younger generations cause no problems in society. Sadly there are always a small minority in all religions who make a bad name for the whole religion.

The government should stand by what they decide as a law. If animals must be stunned before killing then that should be the way it is for all. If that is the law of the land then so it should be. Most Muslims are keen to fit in and so do not have problem with animals being stunned before slaughter. This law if it was blanket would affect Jews much more but would only affect small pockets of Muslims and then only for short time as each Imam would have to adapt their view on teachings to comply with law. Those who object loudly rarely speak for majority.
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Sadly they(muslims) have a totaly different outlook, the radical ones are on a crusade against western socicity and its values and the moderate ones go along with that agenda to a greater or lesser extent for all sorts of reasons...
 
ucmeicu said:
Rubbish, good muslims don't want to integrate. Did you know they have over 85 sharia courts in this country already, our courts are not good enough? Having seen Anjem Choudary burning the USA flag outside the US embassy on 9/11 and then seeing the videos of the protests against the pope I think as important as animal welfare is, the creeping islamification going on in this country is even more worrying.. look up M.A.C. and M.D.L. and educate yourselves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awSd-Pno1rY&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNZQ5D8IwfI
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You know, its bit like those "well hard, straight" men who get all arsey about gays. If you're so secure in your sexuality/faith why the paranoia and fear?

:confused:

Bugger creeping Islamification. There is rampant Athiestisation (word??!) but that's not as much fun to bleat about, is it?

I went to an International School abroad for 4 years and went in and came back a Christian, despite being surrounded by Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists and having every Poya day off and marking every religious festival. :rolleyes: Grow up and get a grip!
Muppets.

Also, what does M.A.C makeup have to do with anything?
 
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Tinkerbee said:
You know, its bit like those "well hard, straight" men who get all arsey about gays. If you're so secure in your sexuality/faith why the paranoia and fear?

:confused:

Bugger creeping Islamification. There is rampant Athiestisation (word??!) but that's not as much fun to bleat about, is it?

I went to an International School abroad for 4 years and went in and came back a Christian, despite being surrounded by Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists and having every Poya day off and marking every religious festival. :rolleyes: Grow up and get a grip!
Muppets.

Also, what does M.A.C makeup have to do with anything?
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Why do you have to be insulting to those who have different views to yours. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are muppets. Everyone has different reasons for believing what they do. Perhaps your views would be understood more if you tried to persuade rather than vilify. Just a thought.
 
LHS said:
Why do you have to be insulting to those who have different views to yours. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are muppets. Everyone has different reasons for believing what they do. Perhaps your views would be understood more if you tried to persuade rather than vilify. Just a thought.
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Probably...and I did edit it a few times and perhaps should have edited it more. I'm not very good at persuading such people I'm afraid, they are such polar opposites to what I have been brought up with so at times, such views seem only capable of coming from someone not all there.

Eta- Also, I thought "muppet" was a fairly soft insult? Possibly not.
 
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QR. This has been a very interesting debate. I thought the point made by EAST KENT about other cultures trying to recreate their home society in Great Britain a very good one because the reverserse is almost impossible. The west have failed to really influence the laws in the middle east especially and they have no patient there with westerners who do not observe their rules. Even in the USA, where I have lived in the past, when you take your residency vows, you must swear to be an American first. Only after that are you allowed to be a black/white/red/muslim/protestant/catholic/baptist or any other race or creed that might be considered secular. I find it hard to understand why a British Company feels the need to alienate so many of the people in its own country. perhaps they would be better off if they offered less meal choices. One meat choice and one vegitarian (both prepared 'kosher' which i do not think anyone objects to) would enable everyone to eat something. Those wanting halal would be obliged to take the vegitarian option or fly with their own national airline who obviously should look after their own nationals as a priority.
As for the method of slaughtering for halal, it is barbaric in a great many places. perhaps animals are stunned first in this country but in many others they are not. What is too stop BA from buying their meat abroad where the source amd manner of slaughter cannot be verified?
 
Inky_and_Sunny said:
Actually Kosher is worse than Halal. Halal does, it seem allow for stunning but Kosher requires no stunning or pain relief prior to having their throats' slit.
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I do apologise. I believed that koshewr food was prepared by not mixing meat and dairy and I did not realise the killing of the animal was part of the belief.
 
Can't believe the ignorance from some people of this thread...just a few facts here for those who do NOT know...

Poultry and meat must be slaughtered under strict guidelines called "Shechita." This means the animals are slaughtered without pain. Only those who are trained and qualified are allowed to slaughter kosher animals.

According to the Torah (also known as the five books of Moses, the Old Testament, or the Pentateuch) cloven hoofed, cud-chewing mammals are kosher. Deer, sheep and goats, for example are all kosher, while pig and rabbit, for example, are not.

This all of course, relates to Jewish law. Like it or not, it has happened for thousands of years, and will no doubt continue.

We ARE a multi-cultural society, accept it, or deny it....I know what I'm doing in carrying on with my life....

Don't eat meat. THAT is the simplest way. Unfortunately, there are MANY people who don't give a damn how an animal is slaughtered. As long as they get their steak and chips....then thats just dandy....

Just remember, THIS way was considered the BEST way. I read somewhere that by all accounts the blood pressure drops instantly and therefore shuts the brain down immediately, hence believing that it is indeed a humane way....BUT I'm not a vet, so if a vet could confirm this, that would be good...

The sad fact is - we won't ever agree on how to kill one of God's creatures.
 
I cannot see how slitting the throat can be as instant as stunning. If I had to choose it myself, or for one of my animals, there would be no question.
You see it done on live TV and stunning is totally instant. The slitting is done afterwards by which time the animal knows nothing.
I believe that religion should have no say in the way animals are slaughtered - slaughter method should be done in the quickest and most humane way on welfare grounds. The way animals are raised is of more importance, and I personally only buy from the butcher which is free range. The odd time I buy from the supermarket it's free range.
Frankly, I think all meat supplied in this country should be slaughtered to whatever standard the UK sets (which is very high). If certain religions want LESSER standards then tough. You eat what's provided or eat veggie!!!!! If you don't agree then go live somewhere else. Why the **** should WE eat veggie to avoid Halal or Kosher? And why the **** should we order veggie on UK BASED flights? We provide prayer rooms at LHR / LGW etc isn't that enough? Even the toilets are adapted.
Out of interest I love curry, but, I make them myself with free range meat slaughtered to UK standard. If you do a bit of googling, and take the time, you can make as good as carry-out but healthier. And I love doing it! I live next to a farm and they (the animals) all go for meat but they have a good life. I owe it to them to support good slaughter as well.
I believe that if you want to live in the UK, you have to abide by UK rules on animal slaughter. There should be NO exception.
I also believe that religion, closely followed by money, is the root of most evil. Funnily, gate gourtmet's possible decision is based on money, and the reason behind that whole decison, is religion. Religion (from my point of view) has no place if it means animals suffer more. I know there are far more pressing animal welfare issues out there, but, other than money or fashion most are due to ignorance or abuse and this is not one of them.
Slaughter method should, without question, be the quickest and most humane method available in that country.
 
There is a Muslim medical student where I work and she eats non-halal meat - apparantly the teaching state if there is no other option you will not be looked upon badly by Allah as everyone must eat (I live in one of the most rural, remote areas in Scotland).

As someone mentioned earlier if we don't like it go for the veggie option. I'd say why can't the people with religious issues do that? Why cater for the minority exclusively? It's getting silly
 
My father was a butcher. Before he got his own chain of butchers shops up and running he was employed as a butcher and slaughterman for quite a few years. He was one of the few people in the UK to contract leptospirosis (Weil's Disease) and survive from accidentally swallowing some of the blood of a pig which had not been successfully stunned during the slaughter process. Anyway, I remember he and his work colleagues would often debate the merits and demerits of various slaughter processes and they took pride in doing it the most correct, least distressful way to the beast. They were not enamoured with Muslim methods of slaughter one little bit. There is a reason we have evolved other methods of slaughter in this country which are more efficient and less cruel than less advanced countries.

I fly BA quite often and instead of no longer doing so, I will refuse to order a vegetarian option (I'm not fond of vegetables) but instead take the meat option, refuse to eat it and complain, at length, to the inflight staff. I would rather BA removed the meals option if they cannot afford to use quality British sources of meat for their meals. I am uncomfortable with eating halal meat to the point that I cannot bring myself to eat it. I never eat takeways and I only eat meat once or twice a week. I only eat meat in quality restaurants and even then often send it back for not being of good enough quality. The thought of eating halal slaughtered meat makes me feel sick.

BA might think they will save money on using only halal meat but they have not reckoned on the nightmare scenario of dealing with the complaints of the fussy British female eater. I would rather they reduced the prices and didn't serve meals at all if thats all they can provide.
 
I should also add that the majority of slaughtermen in this country take pride in their work and respect that the animals should suffer as little as possible (it is the bad ones that get into the news) and my father was adamant that rodding was the only surefire way to ensure the beast was truly unaware and suffered least distress during the slaughter process. The beasts do know shortly before their end that they are going to die, and that is when they suffer a high level of distress. As my father found out, stunning on its own is not always reliable (the pig that infected him struggled to get free after missing both being stunned and bolted).

You will find that in a lot of cultures which still hunt and then eat what they kill, that the animal is revered for its sacrifice in allowing humans to eat, and they kill in the most respectful and therefore least distressing way that they have available to them. This is certainly the case amongst the Innuit and the Faroese Grindalaup (both of which I have visited). You cannot help but be impressed by genuine hunters afinity with their prey. What I think irks me most about halal and kosher methods of slaugther is that it is the religious feelings of humans that are put to the forefront, rather than reducing the suffering of the beast as much as possible, and that the most modern, painfree, efficient methods are avaiable but not used.

As a lawyer, I also have little truck with the supposedly fashionable view that Sharia law is a great legal system. (in actual fact few countries other than Saudi Arabia and Iran have pure Shaira law and Islamic countries usually mix it with religious law). Sharia law and religious law provide basic moral codes which struggle to adapt to modern practices and therefore modernise. In many ways, they hold back country's development. How do they do so? By enshrining outdated principles and preventing them from being changed, by their failure to embody judicial precedent (judge-made law), by using non or inadquately legally qualified judges, by having a poor appeals process, poor representation of defendents, by permitting corruption, by struggling to deal with even slightly advanced concepts of commerce and trade. The "west" OTOH has common and civil law based systems - in Rome 2500 years ago, the legal system was so advanced that most of its basic principles still make sense today and that is why they were copied by an emerging British society. Sharia and Islamic law on the other hand is even more ancient, it is badly thought out and struggles to encompass new principles necessary for modernisation. It is really only suited to a certain kind of geographically isolated agrarian society with little commerce or trade.

I'm afraid I view having halal choices imposed on me as a backwards, retrograde step that will do no-one any good, least of all the beasts who are to be slaughtered (and isn't it remarkable how quiet the "antis" are on such issues?)
 
Another excellent post Mithras.I do think that when Halal/kosher laws were introduced it was in part on humanitarian grounds.People were probably slaughtering animals in all sortsof ways and one of the Kosher bits say that you should not eat of the living, for very good reasons.Halal/Kosher was intended to standardize methods of slaughter and possibly the Imam/Rabbi presence was meant to ensure that things were done according to law.It probably didn't always work but it was an effort and in areas that don't have access to stunners etc. possibly the best.You do make a very good case for advancement though and i for one, in future will be questioning the meat I get.
Personally I am not a fan of sharia law but in this country at least, people have a choice whether they go down that path or not, so so long as it doesn't contravene British law and is a free choice people should have the freedom to persue it.
I think, now, on balance, we should be questioning the humanity of the Kosher/Halal slaughter methods.I just did not like this post when at times it seemed as rascism dressed up as animal rights.
 
martlin said:
Hello *waves* I am from a ''foreign country'', although I am white. Am I allowed an opinion?
I'll voice it anyway:
I think/believe that Halal (and Kosher) slaughter is wrong and would never eat meat slaughtered in this way. In fact, I refuse to sell my lambs to Muslims alive, I'm happy to supply meat, though - funny enough, they don't want meat :rolleyes:
I would not stand for my own livestock slaughtered in this way, even if Halal abattoir was available locally. As it is, the distance to the nearest Halal abattoir is, in my opinion too great to allow my animals to go there on welfare in transport grounds.

Call me racist or anti-Muslim if you want, but I simply object (be it very strongly) to the slaughter methods on welfare grounds.
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I completely agree, I don't give a monkeys whatsit about Islam, Judaism or Christianity, it is the methods used in the slaughter of Halal and Kosher meat that I object to. I would never knowingly eat meat that has been slaughtered in this way, it is inhumane and barbaric.

Interestingly, when talking to my OH about this, he initially said "so what?" then, when I explained the difference in the slaughter methods he agreed it is unacceptable.

Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I understood that not all Halal/Kosher is unstunned? If this is indeed the case, then I see no reason whatsover to allow anyone to slaughter animals without stunning them first.

I also think that there is a lot of racism in this thread which I do not condone. For me this is purely a welfare problem, nothing more, nothing less.
 
Pampera,

I previously read the report in the FG, and I've seen the film footage. The conditions at the slaughter house mentioned were an absolute disgrace, and were such that no competent slaughter-man would ever countenance such behaviour, and I speak from experience.

WHERE I would like to know, were the SVS and the MHS? How could these licensed operatives have allowed such conduct? We'll never know the answer to that!

I can assure you that those involved in the process of slaughter, generally, abide by the Slaughter-man's Creed, and here it is.......

"Thine is the task of blood
Discharge thy task with mercy
Let thy victim feel no pain
Let sudden blow bring death
Such death as thou thyself would ask".
anon.

It was written, I believe, in the 17th. century. It's the yardstick by which most competent men operate. You have to understand that in every abattoir which I know of, if such behaviour were witnessed then the bulk of the staff would round on the guilty party, long before it reached the company management, and such appalling cruelty would not be tolerated. That the abattoir, which you've highlighted, has received press coverage, would be an embarrassment to all skilled tradesmen.

Amongst some of the sensible responses on this thread, I've also read a load of unmitigated rubbish. Theorised rubbish, which contributes nothing towards serious debate.

From a personal viewpoint, I would always prefer that an animal be stunned, prior to being bled. In the case of pigs, it's vital, as without it, then a state of barbarism is in place. In the case of animals which are killed under a religious edict, then with a skilled operator, once the carotid artery and the jugular vein are severed, then an unconscious state is achieved in a couple of seconds, if that.

I have, in emergencies, killed standing animals with a knife. The collapse has been virtually instant. I farm and keep livestock, and now I keep a humane killer in my car at all times, even though it only gets used two, or three times a year.

I have never yet met a slaughter-man who was anything other than a skilled, competent and committed tradesman. Don't tar everybody with the same brush, please.

Alec.
 
Very interesting and thought provoking thread. I have seen strong arguments for and against Halal meat/slaughtering but for me, what I really resent is that the real truth of this is that the people who are using it are doing it to save money. Its NOT so muslims can eat freely and I bitterly resent the strong inference that these companies are using the money for religous reasons - and this is a christian country which means that argument is even more ridicolous - and of course, a practising Sikh can't actually eat Halal meat so this is poor for them too.

I have an excellent local butcher, I check when I shop in supermarkets to ease my conscience, avoid KFC for all the reasons mentioned previously but (stupidly) hadn't really thought about BA/Ascot/Twickenham (doh...!). I will be voting with my feet - it will be veggie options from now on.
 
Fair comment Alec, but please stoppit with the pompous twit tone. We don't all believe everything we read (in its entirity at any rate) and some of us have a little working knowledge of animal despatch.

My issue is with proper treatment of animals and I don't care who is dishing out the coup de grâce, if they are not doing it as quickly and humanely as possible I'll have a voice on it.

Rotten apples like those in the article deserve punishment for their acts. That others are allowed to operate in a possibly similar inhumane manner, untouchable because of their religion, then we are well and truly stuffed. That is why there is an uproar. It IS to do with religion and the religion card seems to be the free pass out of trouble for non-British in this country.
 
brighteyes said:
Fair comment Alec, but please stoppit with the pompous twit tone. We don't all believe everything we read (in its entirity at any rate) and some of us have a little working knowledge of animal despatch.

My issue is with proper treatment of animals and I don't care who is dishing out the coup de grâce, if they are not doing it as quickly and humanely as possible I'll have a voice on it.

Rotten apples like those in the article deserve punishment for their acts. That others are allowed to operate in a possibly similar inhumane manner, untouchable because of their religion, then we are well and truly stuffed. That is why there is an uproar. It IS to do with religion and the religion card seems to be the free pass out of trouble for non-British in this country.
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Yes I agree however I do think people are begining to realise what is at stake and the mistakes that being a very tolerant and generous people has caused for us when people from oppressive or violent regimes or religions come here, some fit in, others are lost without ridgid religious or secular rule and then another group see our
easy going nature as weakness and a oppertunity to take over and impose their agender ...we realy do need to make people intergrate and fit in with our laws and values a little bit more........ controling halal is just one way of saying what is or is'nt accetable to us and will gain us respect in the end....
 
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brighteyes,

As well as being a "Pompous Twit", I'm also an arrogant, bombastic, self centred, self opinionated and an all-round general know-all. Add to that, that I'm wealthy and considered by most to be incredibly good looking, and your comment would be entirely correct. It's only my horses and dogs, who seem to accept me for what I am!

Actually, I agree with your post, in its entirety, which may surprise you. When I've been in the Middle East, I've always been acutely conscious of not causing offence, and also equally conscious of the fact that I have lived there, under THEIR conditions, laws and religious beliefs. It can't be right that we will bend, generally distort, or even break any of our laws, simply to accommodate those of different faiths.

When I've lived in foreign lands, I've been bound by their conditions of entry. It's a great shame that we don't insist upon a reciprocal adherence.

Mithras, excellent posts.

Alec.
 
having spoken to someone yesterday who has seen animals slaughtered for halal meat in this country, they were walked into a crate which was then turned upside down so the animals were on their backs. The animals were struggling for some time whilst being blessed? Then their throats were cut. In cows they are cut at the base of the neck. We live in England, halal methods are allowed for religious reasons. That meat should be for muslims only. Animals should not suffer and that meat then sold to people of other religions unknowingly.
 
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