Back in the which supplement maze....

[Ample Prosecco]

Lottie! Last spring she dropped weight and looked awful when Spring grass came through and was very tender over her right flank where the caecum is. So a hypothesis of of hind gut acidosis seemed reasonable and I got her off the grass and started her on Equishure. Then turned her out overnight while in during the day till Autumn. She was already on Gastric 74 which had kept her healthy after injury related ulcers 18 months ago, and maintained her well for several months before the Spring grass, when I added in Equishure. She improved rapidly and then stayed on Equishure and Gastric 74 through the eventing season and then, as they ran out I did not replace them. I just used Protexin if she was travelling or competing. Then from January she was on nothing and fine. Until Spring grass kicked in (quite late as we are very high) and began to be more grumpy. So she went back on Protexin about 2 weeks ago which has not made any obvious difference. So do I stick her back on both (financially unwelcome!!) Or just one at a time - and if so which one?

It is not obviously hind gut this time. It's not obviously anything actually:

Last Spring - coat dull. This year still soft and shiny
Last Spring, dropped weight. This year we switched her to nighttime turn out in April and she has stayed looking good
Last Spring, clear reaction over caecum
This year - not reacting to anywhere in particular - just more generally reactive to all the many, many, many, places she has a problem with - pecs, mane, belly, flanks, ears. Or her entire body if she's in a particularly 'dont touch me' mood. But if you distract her with hay or whatever she is not showing any pain reaction. And if you rub her all over while sat on her back, she does not react. So it seems like a 'feck off' vibe not an 'ouch' one.

Ridden work totally unaffected, which is the same as last year.

I have asked a vet about skin conditions making her generally sore, and they felt it was behavioural, and nothing to do with her skin, as she looks great.
I wondered about seasons but no sign of that really.

Any thoughts?

 

[Squeak]

I'd probably be tempted to try something new (and a bit cheaper!) unless she's got to the point where it just needs sorting at which point I'd put her back on one then the other and then both as needed.

If it's any help, this is my go to when the grass flushes for my boy with his gut issues.

X-Lam Aid for Horses | Horse Supplements - GWF Nutrition

X-Lam Aid for Horses is a high specification supplement designed to maintain healthy blood flow including to the hoov. Suitable for horses with laminitis.

www.gwfnutrition.com

It's not an obvious choice because it's aimed at laminitics but it's actually designed to help their guts and help them metabolise sugar properly and has buffers etc in when you read the description. My boy doesn't do well with sugar so for him it makes a lot of sense.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Could you try Aloe Vera juice as YCBM suggested in here? It's £10 per litre from Amazon..
Otherwise I would be looking at antihistamine's see if that makes any difference

 

[spacefaer]

New grass is magnesium deficient (among many other nutrients) and a couple of the symptoms of mag deficiency is muscle tightness and touch reactivity. Might be worth popping her on some magox to see.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Thanks all - she has never responded to Aloe before but I can try mag ox and the lami stuff. Off for a google.....

 

[quizzie]

Slightly left field, but bentonite clay and psyllium husk might help....it will soothe the gut and help with the dietary changes that spring grass inevitably causes...and its relatively cheap!

 

[PurBee]

My 2 are fairly stable year round as they live a low-stress existence and just get to be horses mainly. The times when i find them ‘different’ temperamentally has always coincided with food changes. Even when i slowly introduce a new ingredient.
I’ve come to the conclusion that considering they eat huge volumes of 1 main food group - forage, their gut bacteria are very attuned to any changes …..even of forage foods.
This gut biome has to change to accomodate the new ingredient. Without specific bacteria for specific foods, that food cannot be fully digested, so it takes around 2 weeks i notice, for the start of them truly settling ‘back to normal’ gut-wise, with a new food - for the bacteria population to shift and change to fully accomodate the new food.
And due to their gut biome being absolutely massive in comparison to us, and especially in domestication they are not on the wild huge variety of foods which give their wild counterparts a vastly more complex population of gut microbes, changes in hay types and grass types, can have a swinging pendulum effect on the whole gut system moreso for the domesticated horse.

As Lottie isnt showing the array of symptoms of hindgut issues like last year, this time, i’d be inclined to reason its the gut biome changing due to introduction of grass.
The first 2 weeks of slow intro to more grass of mine i keenly notice their subtle changes, only because i know them. My OH doesnt notice any change as he handles them less. All in all the first month i allow for gut settlement when switching to majority more grass. I give a mix of probiotics to help. They thrive on grass, and i love it for them, but its always been a challenge transitioning from majority winter mixed hay/lage to more fresh juicy green leafy grass, as spring growth is so unpredictable. Once on grass and gut settled, they can be on long lush or short grass, its no difference, they do fine.

I have a gelding who’s always been thinner skinned than the mare and he’s generally not liked much body touching, since being a foal, its part of his personality, except if he’s been itchy due to midge bites and wants help scratching THEN he wants to use me! He has to be in the mood for a snoozy slow full body brush-down, then he loves it, but mostly he’s in his usual ‘dount touch me, stop messin’, leave off!’ mode. The mare however loves massage/grooming etc. Its hard when dealing with a non-touchy feely horse to assess whether theyre experiencing discomfort, or just being their usual ‘get off me’ self, so i do empathise!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Right! Mag Ox and Lami stuff on order. Probiotics already going in. Bentonite and clay and psyllium husk on the 'maybe' list. Please nobidy suggest anything else now because I will feel compelled to try it (JUst kidding. All suggestions remain welcome).

Purbee that explanation does make sense. And so does the idea that mag ox deficiency is making her more reactive to touch. So fingers crossed we can get her back to her still-grumpy-but-more-normal self soon.

 

[SEL]

Right! Mag Ox and Lami stuff on order. Probiotics already going in. Bentonite and clay and psyllium husk on the 'maybe' list. Please nobidy suggest anything else now because I will feel compelled to try it (JUst kidding. All suggestions remain welcome).

Purbee that explanation does make sense. And so does the idea that mag ox deficiency is making her more reactive to touch. So fingers crossed we can get her back to her still-grumpy-but-more-normal self soon.

Now isn't the time to mention how well my touch sensitive, girthy pony is doing on Immunocore Spine & Nerve then? I'm living on baked beans again

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Now isn't the time to mention how well my touch sensitive, girthy pony is doing on Immunocore Spine & Nerve then? I'm living on baked beans again

Do you mean immunebiome? Immunocore on Google takes me somewhere weirdly corporate and unhorsey!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

This stuff?

ImmuBiome Spine & Nerve

ImmuBiome Spine & Nerve is formulated to support spine and nerve related conditions... ⓘ MORE DETAILS & PRODUCT ANALYSIS »

www.immubiome.co.uk

 

[Squeak]

Right! Mag Ox and Lami stuff on order. Probiotics already going in. Bentonite and clay and psyllium husk on the 'maybe' list. Please nobidy suggest anything else now because I will feel compelled to try it (JUst kidding. All suggestions remain welcome).

Purbee that explanation does make sense. And so does the idea that mag ox deficiency is making her more reactive to touch. So fingers crossed we can get her back to her still-grumpy-but-more-normal self soon.

Hopes the Lam Aid works for you Will be interested to hear how she gets on with it. It's so hard trying to keep them right and sooooo many options all that have some people who've had good results.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I find it really hard not to give something a go if I think it might help. My cupboard at home is full of expensive useless supplements too!

But at least I know the Gastric 74 & Equishure sorted her out. But they are both soooo expensive. She’s on a lot of expensive hard feed as it is. Plus hedgerow herbs, electrolytes…

I’m sure most of what I buy is a waste of money. Amber was really poor when I got her and after trying multiple expensive options, she actually did best on thirds!!! More or less a waste product

But Lottie looks great so I’ll leave her feed alone. Just need to address the spring grass issue.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Now isn't the time to mention how well my touch sensitive, girthy pony is doing on Immunocore Spine & Nerve then? I'm living on baked beans again

Do you think this worked for your horse?

It's got lots of weird stuff in it hasn't it.

 

[tda]

Now isn't the time to mention how well my touch sensitive, girthy pony is doing on Immunocore Spine & Nerve then? I'm living on baked beans again

Just had a quick look at that product, interesting as I have recently started taking Lions Mane mushroom tincture, and I have some Reishi too.
It's still quite an unexplored area but growing. I'm taking the Lions Mane as it is reputed to be helpful in nerve repair

 

[SEL]

Do you mean immunebiome? Immunocore on Google takes me somewhere weirdly corporate and unhorsey!

Yes!! I don't know what my phone was doing There's a US based vet who is very into mushrooms and Immubiome is the only horse provider I've come across in the UK at very great expense. Microcob has always had a dodgy gut once the spring grass comes through - horrible smelly cow pats - & she gets tetchy about being groomed too. I thought it was worth a shot and surprisingly she seems to be doing well on it. Which my credit card feels very sad about.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Oh god that sounds like Lottie. I forgot to mention the cowpats! My credit card might ne sad soon too. But I'll try the cheaper stuff first

 

[Caol Ila]

This is a helpful thread, though as usual, there are too many suggestions. My horses changed from day turnout to overnight on Monday. Hermosa is fine, but Fin is acting girthy again. He went through a girthy phase in November, when the routine changed from overnight to day (but unlike November, he's still nice to ride) There has got to be a pattern here. Then, I stuck him on Eky Guard, but that stuff is super expensive. I also had psyllium husk. I still have some lying around so could try that again.

He also has the cowpat poos.

 

[Squeak]

Oh god that sounds like Lottie. I forgot to mention the cowpats! My credit card might ne sad soon too. But I'll try the cheaper stuff first

Mine gets cowpats too and the lam aid has helped with them so fingers crossed it might with Lottie too

 

[Squeak]

How did you get on with the Mag Ox and Lam Aid AE? Did you find it helped?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

How did you get on with the Mag Ox and Lam Aid AE? Did you find it helped?

Sorry only just seen this queation. Lottie seems back to normal now. Whether that is because hjer gut biome has adjusted to spring/summer grass or whehter it was the supplements, I don't know. But she is better than ever now. Had a massage with the Vet Physio who mentioned how more tolerant of touch she was. And how good she feels all over. And she is generally better about being groomed. Though she has never liked it.

The one area she still reacts to is her pecs. Vet physio said there was just no need for her to react like that - area felt loose/soft. Maybe she is just ticklish. She reacts to the lightest touch there. Also reacts to being girthed with Joe M felt was learned behaviour. Becuase she is fine if you palpate that area when not being girthed.

So who knows. She seems happy and relaxed in her work and her demeanor in her stable is so much better than it was. She even came over for a nuzzle the other day.

I think I'll let everything run out and see what happens....

 

[Squeak]

Sorry only just seen this queation. Lottie seems back to normal now. Whether that is because hjer gut biome has adjusted to spring/summer grass or whehter it was the supplements, I don't know. But she is better than ever now. Had a massage with the Vet Physio who mentioned how more tolerant of touch she was. And how good she feels all over. And she is generally better about being groomed. Though she has never liked it.

The one area she still reacts to is her pecs. Vet physio said there was just no need for her to react like that - area felt loose/soft. Maybe she is just ticklish. She reacts to the lightest touch there. Also reacts to being girthed with Joe M felt was learned behaviour. Becuase she is fine if you palpate that area when not being girthed.

So who knows. She seems happy and relaxed in her work and her demeanor in her stable is so much better than it was. She even came over for a nuzzle the other day.

I think I'll let everything run out and see what happens....

That's good she's back to herself. Let us know if you do find out if it was the supplements or not!