"Back Men"

[Olivia16]

So the question is do you believe in Quacks or "back men" that can diagnose injuries using just a rod and then presses on the horses back saying that they have put in a disc 6 inches down in a horses back?
The reason I ask this is that I was advised to attend a Quack as horse was lame on left hind so I went down, man said 2 discs out in horses back, he put them in and told me to rest him for 9 days and leave him in stable. In actual fact horse got 3 weeks rest as I was on holiday, 1 of these weeks horse was outside. Came home from holiday, rode horse, same problem. Brought horse back down to Quack. He told me that horse now has 3 discs out in back instead of 2. Same thing was carried out again and told to rest for another 9-10 days.
In the meanwhile I have consulted a vet. Vet thinks "Back man is a load of rubbish". Vet diagnoses problem as an inflamed joint and muscle problem in the croup. Told by vet to rest for a month and then if problem not sorted, injections will be given into the joint. Vet says injury very common.
I have now been told by very experienced people who swear by this back man to go down to him one last time and that to wait for the month like the vet advised is to long.
So now I really don't know what to do with horse and don't know who is right or who is wrong.

Any advise as to what to do greatly appreciated.
Thank you for reading

Olivia

 

[Cabaret]

Vets go through extensive schooling.
Quacks do not.

Vets have to graduate from school where they are taught objective, scientific information.
Quacks do not.

Vet students have to do extensive practical training prior to becoming vets with licensed vets.
Quacks do not.

Vets have to be licensed and maintain that license regularly and misconduct causes them to lose their license to practice.
None of this applies to a quack.

Please, please listen to your vet.

 

[Red-1]

I know you must follow the instructions of the vet.

I do think some "back men" are great, they seem to have a natural ability to spot muscular tension. I also think some are rubbish, and as there is no regulation how are you to know?

If the horse is lame the vet is always the correct course of action.

It is only where a horse is sound but just perhaps under performing that I would personally consider using a "back man" NOT if one is lame. I would liken this in humans to a massage by a sports massage person, rather than nipping off to a "quack" physio or Chiro.

I would also never recommend a "back man" as they are likely uninsured, cannot be "graded" and could do your horse a whole lot of harm.

I would go so far as to say if your horse is lame (as in in pain) and you have instructions from the vet for treatment, then failing to follow these instructions is neglecting the welfare of the horse, in legality.

I do understand that you are seeking to do your best, but for a lame horse, who has seen the vet and has been diagnosed with an injury, to follow vets instructions is undoubtedly the correct thing to do.

 

[cobgoblin]

No person can manipulate a horse's spine.

 

[oldie48]

I have all my horses backs checked regularly by an equine physiotherapist but I would never ask her to see a lame horse although she can pick up subtle lameness that i would miss. She is highly experienced, came recommended by people I trust and has made a huge difference to two horses that were showing stiffness/resistance when ridden (although both had passed a 5 stage vetting) She also treats my friends horses and she is a vet. However, I think there are a lot of Quacks around and if I have paid a vet to look at a horse and give an opinion I would follow his advice and not that of an unqualified person.

 

[Red-1]

No person can manipulate a horse's spine.

I agree, what can be done is work on muscles that are in spasm, to release the spasm, so the horse is more comfortable. I have this done for my own pelvis, which is "out" as they say, and I can see and feel that after the muscles have been worked on I feel, and am, more level and comfortable.

So there is no confusion though, for this horse, which is lame, I would follow vets instructions, and I believe it would be negligent not to.

 

[Moomin1]

Urgh. The man must be a super hero if he's managed to put spinal discs back into place by merely manipulating the back. Why do people waste their money on this sort of rubbish??

 

[be positive]

I think you need to stop listening to well meaning friends and think about what your horses requires, a horse that is lame needs diagnosing and treating by a qualified vet, then if recommended by a qualified physio not by someone who thinks that he can put back in place slipped discs, it would be lovely to think they can perform such things, the end of numerous issues with many horses but they cannot do so.

You need to follow your vets advice, it sounds as if it is a sacroiliac problem which it left untreated is likely to get worse and the longer it is left without the correct treatment the longer the recovery will take, your insurance if you have any may be void if you mess about with unqualified people not to mention the damage he may do to your horse.

 

[peaceandquiet1]

Don't believe in back men and agree go with your vet.

 

[SnowPhony]

There are an awful lot of charlatans out there! Someone who claims to be putting slipped discs back is a con man plain and simple. Did he ask you to gain veterinary consent before his visit? If not he also broke the law.

I work in equine therapy, have spent time and money qualifying, paying for insurance and it really irks me how people like this come along and con people with their tongs and hammers etc. It's all a load of rubbish, and makes me really bloody angry that people are being ripped off and animals health and well being put at risk.

He should not have treated a lame horse before the horse was seen by a vet.

 

[Nudibranch]

I would avoid him like the plague, he cannot just put them back. And to be honest if your horse really did have two - or three - discs "out" then he'd be showing a lot more than some lameness on his hind. These people are charlatans and should not be allowed to operate.

 

[maggiesmum]

I regularly use a qualified and insured chiropractor & massage therapist that I rate very highly and there are occasions where i'd call her rather than the vet, as in all professions there are people out there who will happily take your money for doing nothing but talking the talk and convincing you they've worked miracles.
As the owner its up to you to check out someones qualifications and possibly ask to see insurance - what if they did some damage when 'putting a disc back' and they weren't insured? I also agree with the comments that its pretty much impossible to move the vertebrae that are deep within the body.

That said i'm also of the view that the standard 2 weeks bute and rest that vets prescribe doesn't do much either, muscle pain doesn't just go away by itself and either massage or manipulation by a qualified practitioner can be really helpful in those circumstances. I'm not knocking vets, they train hard for a long time and most are worth their weight in gold but their expertise lies in needles and knives and not in muscle work, combining treatment of the joint with massage / manipulation to ease off the tension and physio exercises to build the strength would be my preferred option. Vets & bodyworkers can be a great team when used together.

 

[Moomin1]

I regularly use a qualified and insured chiropractor & massage therapist that I rate very highly and there are occasions where i'd call her rather than the vet, as in all professions there are people out there who will happily take your money for doing nothing but talking the talk and convincing you they've worked miracles.
As the owner its up to you to check out someones qualifications and possibly ask to see insurance - what if they did some damage when 'putting a disc back' and they weren't insured? I also agree with the comments that its pretty much impossible to move the vertebrae that are deep within the body.

That said i'm also of the view that the standard 2 weeks bute and rest that vets prescribe doesn't do much either, muscle pain doesn't just go away by itself and either massage or manipulation by a qualified practitioner can be really helpful in those circumstances. I'm not knocking vets, they train hard for a long time and most are worth their weight in gold but their expertise lies in needles and knives and not in muscle work, combining treatment of the joint with massage / manipulation to ease off the tension and physio exercises to build the strength would be my preferred option. Vets & bodyworkers can be a great team when used together.

Possibly so, but chiropractors and massage therapists are not qualified to be making any diagnoses.

 

[Beausmate]

So the question is do you believe in Quacks

Quack:-

A person who dishonestly claims to have special knowledge and skill in some field, typically medicine:

I believe in them being hazardous to your horse's health and your pocket. I believe in them as something to be avoided.

 

[eahotson]

I have all my horses backs checked regularly by an equine physiotherapist but I would never ask her to see a lame horse although she can pick up subtle lameness that i would miss. She is highly experienced, came recommended by people I trust and has made a huge difference to two horses that were showing stiffness/resistance when ridden (although both had passed a 5 stage vetting) She also treats my friends horses and she is a vet. However, I think there are a lot of Quacks around and if I have paid a vet to look at a horse and give an opinion I would follow his advice and not that of an unqualified person.

Ditto.

 

[starsky]

Just to add it is impossible to 'put a disk back in'. A disk is between the vertebral bones and it is not a solid mass like bone, therefore you cannot just move it around. Imagine a thick liquid in a sack, that is your disk. If the disk bulges (herniates) it can press on the spinal cord or other nerves causing pain. You cannot put this bulge back in as even if the bulge is on the top side of the spine, the bulge will be under the spinous processes of the vertebral bones (so you cannot reach it).

Also to answer an earlier poster. Yes 'back men' can be qualified, but these are chiropractors, osteopaths or physiotherapists. All of which do a degree first in humans and then a post grad qualification in equines. All fully insured and all should be happy to show you their relevant certificates or check them out online. None of them should treat without veterinary consent.

 

[wench]

Simple, use someone qualified next time!

 

[VioletStripe]

Vet all the way.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

No person can manipulate a horse's spine.

This, go with your vet,

The lady who does my horses 'backs' (actually it's an all over body work) always says if she thinks we need a vet, or if it hasn't cleaned up within a time frame go to vet. She also will not touch the horse without a vet knowing and saying yes.

 

[mandyroberts]

If my horse was lame I would go with the vets advice. My vet works with a physiologist and has called her in when it wasn't clear cut. I do use a chiropractor but not when my horse is lame. He rarely touches the back (he checks it but doesn't actually manipulate it - ever) but the problems are usually tightness in the front end which cause press further back. There is a nerve which goes all the way from the head back and this can get pinches around the poll, jaw and neck. I have explained this very badly as I can't recall the correct terms.
Both my physio and chiropractor give me some excises which work. Both are very well thought of in the horsey world but I think it inappropriate to name them here - PM me for names if you are interested. Neither have ever put a disk back in - you can't! And incidentally, human don't slip a disk, they get bulging/prolapses which are the soft tissue between discs getting pinched

 

[BSL]

my horses backs are checked by a qualified human and equine physio. She was recommended by my vets. Don't always understand all the ins and outs of exactly what she is doing but do know when I've had problems Ie stiffness on one side reluctant to bend etc. call her out and always see difference after her help. Expensive but worth it.

 

[Reacher]

So, sorry this is a bit of an aside, but what does it mean when a "back man" tells you the pelvis is out or the poll is out as this seems to be a common complaint?
I meant to ask physio but think she is sick of answering all my many questions!

 

[Red-1]

So, sorry this is a bit of an aside, but what does it mean when a "back man" tells you the pelvis is out or the poll is out as this seems to be a common complaint?
I meant to ask physio but think she is sick of answering all my many questions!

It means that your horse has a muscle spasm, and the tension being uneven makes your horse hold itself crooked. By working the muscle the tension is released and then the horse will hold himself straighter. That is as I understand it.

 

[khalswitz]

It means that your horse has a muscle spasm, and the tension being uneven makes your horse hold itself crooked. By working the muscle the tension is released and then the horse will hold himself straighter. That is as I understand it.

This. My pelvis is regularly 'out' - it means out of alignment, not dislocated!!! My lumbar spinal muscles and hip adductor muscles go in to spasm to compensate for an undiagnosed fractured hip (finally diagnosed after 8 months), and when I go to see my physio, I can have a difference of 2-3cm between the two sides of my pelvis. My physio releases the muscle spasms, and gently pulls my leg until my pelvis sits straight again.

And that is an NHS physio!

My physio and osteo do a similar thing with my horse (think he gets it from me!).

 

[Clip1clop1]

Ken Skinner MRCVS American qualified chiropractic vet. Google him. Not many vets in UK had this training.