Back of frog deteriorating :(

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CosmicRider

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My new horse had a bad farrier in his old home, and his feet were oddly shaped and awkward looking, almost stretched forward and out. He just got shod by my farrier, who is very good, on his front foot. That was 5 days ago, and now on that same hoof that was just recently done, his frog looks... weird.

The back of it has all just gone. It's not crumbly, it's just like a gap in his frog, and then further down towards his toe the gap extends a little, but there is still some frog covering the top, kind of like a cave. He has been fine until yesterday when we were riding out on the road and he started to go lame. He's a very responsive horse and a light touch will get him going but he really didn't want to go past walk :(

Any ideas of what this is, and what I can do to remedy this? Is it just that he is resting too much on the heel of his front foot due to his other feet being at such weird angles? We have been doing quite a bit of road work but would this be enough to actually wear down a hoof..

If you need any more information, just ask and I'll be happy to provide!
 
do you have any photos? thrush? From your description it sounds like your horse has long toes and under run heels. If he is uncomfortable you would probably be best to get the farrier back out to have a look first. - If shod you won't wear down hoof road hacking.
 
Thanks ester,
I don't have any pictures but I could get some on here soon. Thrush I had thought of, but I've known thrush to look a lot different to this. There is no smell, no black substance, and nothing visible apart from the cavity. I'll try the farrier again, thanks a million.
 
Excepting the lack of black & or smell... this does sound like thrush... whatever it is - sounds like something is erroding the frog... Ben had this last year (with the black & smell) I tried everything to stop it, purple spray, stockholm tar... the only thing that worked and worked really fast was iodine...
 
CosmicRider said:
My new horse had a bad farrier in his old home, and his feet were oddly shaped and awkward looking, almost stretched forward and out. He just got shod by my farrier, who is very good, on his front foot. That was 5 days ago, and now on that same hoof that was just recently done, his frog looks... weird.

The back of it has all just gone. It's not crumbly, it's just like a gap in his frog, and then further down towards his toe the gap extends a little, but there is still some frog covering the top, kind of like a cave. He has been fine until yesterday when we were riding out on the road and he started to go lame. He's a very responsive horse and a light touch will get him going but he really didn't want to go past walk :(

Any ideas of what this is, and what I can do to remedy this? Is it just that he is resting too much on the heel of his front foot due to his other feet being at such weird angles? We have been doing quite a bit of road work but would this be enough to actually wear down a hoof..

If you need any more information, just ask and I'll be happy to provide!
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get the vet to check as it could be e coli bacteria or streptococci - my mare had this and we had to put Metronidazole Tablets tablets in the frog to kill this off twice a day and put http://www.msd-animal-health.co.uk/products_public/engemycin_spray/010_overview.aspx blue spray on.

her frog all but disappeared up into the hoof

003_zpsaglvjjut.jpg
 
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what sort of e.coli/streptococci? - they are quite different to eachother.

OP lots of different bacteria, yeast and fungal organisms can cause thrush and you don't always get much gunk or odour - that is also why you get quite so many treatments. I can highly recommend the red horse products range (I use sole cleanse and sometimes hoof stuff) and you won't do any harm using them if that isn't the case. I can't imagine we are talking anything too advanced if it is as the farrier would have either cut it out or mentioned treating when there 5 days ago!
 
ester said:
what sort of e.coli/streptococci? - they are quite different to eachother.

OP lots of different bacteria, yeast and fungal organisms can cause thrush and you don't always get much gunk or odour - that is also why you get quite so many treatments. I can highly recommend the red horse products range (I use sole cleanse and sometimes hoof stuff) and you won't do any harm using them if that isn't the case. I can't imagine we are talking anything too advanced if it is as the farrier would have either cut it out or mentioned treating when there 5 days ago!
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The vet took a swab of the tissue and that is th treatment we did - it was not thrush at all.

I think OP should get the vet as it may need other treatment
 
It is still thrush - thrush is a catch-all diagnosis.

Essentially your vet swabbed found it was bacterial (not fungal or yeast) and assuming it was pretty deep decided antibiotics were needed. That is pretty unusual as because it is external a lot of proprietary antibacterial products work well.
 
Bacterial (or other) hoof infection = thrush. Both long toes or high heels predispose to it. As does poor hoof hygiene.
 
ester said:
It is still thrush - thrush is a catch-all diagnosis.

Essentially your vet swabbed found it was bacterial (not fungal or yeast) and assuming it was pretty deep decided antibiotics were needed. That is pretty unusual as because it is external a lot of proprietary antibacterial products work well.
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It was NOT thrush


I can only go on what the vet said e coli and streptococci which was linked to her laminitis. It was not the standard thrush as you call it this was way way more serious.

She was not put on antibiotics and it was not deep at first it was surface, the bacteria were eating through the frog causing it to go crumbly and drop off, leaving many letter box time slits where I can to squirt the tablets till they frothed up and had to wrap up immediately to allow the tablets to originate the area, thus killing the bacteria. This had to be done at least twice a day
 
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Oh well canker is an entirely different issue and much rarer - and I would definitely have expected the farrier to say something!
It would have made much more sense if you had said yours had canker as the photos don't really work and the bacteria that cause it are quite complicated though I thought it had been identified to be a Bacteroides sp. and or fusobacterium spp. (not strep or e.coli- neither of these are anaerobic so would be very very a-typical as very limited oxygen under the horn).
Because yours had canker does not mean that thrush cannot be bacterial though, it very much can but we are talking about infection of different tissues to those usually affected by thrush. The bacteria associated with canker cause abnormal keratin production usually underneath the horn, as the infection spreads throughout the epithelium. Thrush by comparison affects only superficial tissue/doesn't undermine like canker bacteria do. You were lucky to treat it without surgical intervention.
 
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Ah :) I didn't realise canker can also be erosive (it's normally proliferative as per definition) and can be diagnosed without biopsy and treated without hospitalisation :) I've always seen it treated under GA. Is there a case report published on your girl?

(I still think there are generally hygiene or breed predilection links, though obviously it can happen to any horse)
 
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ester said:
Oh well canker is an entirely different issue and much rarer - and I would definitely have expected the farrier to say something!
It would have made much more sense if you had said yours had canker as the photos don't really work and the bacteria that cause it are quite complicated though I thought it had been identified to be a Bacteroides sp. and or fusobacterium spp. (not strep or e.coli- neither of these are anaerobic so would be very very a-typical as very limited oxygen under the horn).
Because yours had canker does not mean that thrush cannot be bacterial though, it very much can but we are talking about infection of different tissues to those usually affected by thrush. The bacteria associated with canker cause abnormal keratin production usually underneath the horn, as the infection spreads throughout the epithelium. Thrush by comparison affects only superficial tissue/doesn't undermine like canker bacteria do. You were lucky to treat it without surgical intervention.
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As I said it was similar/type of Canker - I have dealt with thrush many times in my 40+ years with horses. This got worst as the e coli and streptococci were changing the frog into spongy type tissue which you could rub off. We had to oxygenate the area to kill the bacteria.

There was NO smell to it and the tablets had to be crushed and put into the areas twice a day, this was linked to her laminitis.

This is a painful subject for me and don't really want to relive this as it took a lot of dedication on my part to break the back of the frog disappearing.


I have many many pictures of this and the healing progress as well as the diary I wrote while clearing this up.


This is digressing from OP post as they need help with whatever is going on with their horse. My mare has sadly been pts and this is to hard to go through it all again
 
It is odd though, as the frog disappearing doesn't really fit the definition of canker (as rara and I said is characterised by the proliferation of tissue not disappearance) or the bacteria you say were involved.
I am only keen for clarification so that we don't end up with misleading information on here, although that misleading info may have come directly from your vet. I don't feel it is digressing from the OPs post as I don't think she should be worrying about canker when that really doesn't fit with the description and would have had a farrier indicating that vet involvement was required pretty quickly. I'm a microbiologist and can guarantee that if the bacteria had been e. coli and streptococci oxygenating the area would have made no difference, they like oxygen.
 
ester said:
It is odd though, as the frog disappearing doesn't really fit the definition of canker (as rara and I said is characterised by the proliferation of tissue not disappearance) or the bacteria you say were involved.
I am only keen for clarification so that we don't end up with misleading information on here, although that misleading info may have come directly from your vet. I don't feel it is digressing from the OPs post as I don't think she should be worrying about canker when that really doesn't fit with the description and would have had a farrier indicating that vet involvement was required pretty quickly. I'm a microbiologist and can guarantee that if the bacteria had been e. coli and streptococci oxygenating the area would have made no difference, they like oxygen.
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I never said Canker is in her case, as without pictures or true diagnoses it is impossible to say in their case. I said MY mares hoof looked similar to canker

It was both the Streptococci as I have the vet bill here and the note the vet gave me and I still have the medication I used.

Are you saying my vet was lying to me ??? it is what you are implying. It was e coli and streptococci, I was treating the horse, I have pictures of the before and during and copies of my vet bill and saw lab results. I know what treatment we used and how it was applied since I administered the treatment according to the vet.

Our treatment worked as halted the spread of deterioration of the hoof/ frog. I am not discussing this anymore my mare is gone, the matter is closed.


OP get the vet out to get a true diagnoses on this as the quicker you know the sooner you can get treatment
 
I am saying that e.coli and streptococci are strict aerobes, would not be able to live without oxygen and would not be killed by an excess of oxygen. I am not saying the vet was lying I am suggesting that (as many aren't) they aren't very up on on their microbiology if that is what they told you as I didn't want to suggest you were recalling it incorrectly or had misunderstood them.

Canker looks the complete opposite to thrush that is why we are confused and taking cultures from a hoof that is regularly on the ground/in bedding is a slightly odd way to diagnose as you would be bound to get e.coli and strep in the sample but they would not be the cause of canker and unlikely the cause of thrush so it just doesn't make any sense and I still don't think the OPs horse has canker!
 
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