Back pain, not KS

[YourValentine]

I think this is a fairly pointless post and grasping at straws but..

Anyone had a horse x-ray clear for kissing spines, like not even slightly close/questionable but 100% clear. But showing clear signs of pain/discomfort on the lunge which from his movement suggests back pain (back held stiff). Also increasingly grumpy about being tacked up.

Appears 100% sound walking and trotting up, no change after flexion tests, no change on a slope, no difference hard or soft surface. No discomfort in the neck, happily bends and flexes it.

Scoped clear for ulcers.

Does dip/drop 1 hip a bit more than the other.

Is/was in very light work, hacking once a week +/- (doing far more exercise by himself in the field)

The only real next invesgative step the vet felt is a £2k bone scan. Expected to confirm back pain deep in the vertebra, possibly arthritis or some other injury/damage, which would be untreatable. So why put him through the stress of doing it. Vet didn't think it would be terribly worth while/ show something different.

I have some bute to make sure he is pain free while I get sorted but plan is PTS shortly. As vet suspects he's always uncomfortable, so not field sound.

Basically asking if anyone has had similar signs and found a cause vet and I haven't thought of? Very unlikely I realise.

 

[AmyMay]

Have you had a lameness work up done?

 

[YourValentine]

Yes, today by a very good equine vet.
Did you read my post?

 

[AmyMay]

Yes, today by a very good equine vet.
Did you read my post?

Obviously not well enough.

Back pain can be a symptom of foot pain. I’d want forelimb blocks and X-rays of the feet, moving on to the hocks if nothing is found in front. Before making a final decision.

 

[Zoeypxo]

My horse had a sore back few years back due to NPA in the front feet, x rays confirmed.
Its worth x raying the hinds aswell as its more common for horses to be npa behind.
Have you had physio/chiro?

 

[gunnergundog]

Yes, today by a very good equine vet.
Did you read my post?

So, what did he nerve block to if dropping on one hip?

 

[Irishdraughtx]

How long has he been having these issues? My cob who was later diagnosed with hock arthritis started out much like your horse as he didn't present lame straight away. Might be something worth considering if leg issues haven't already been ruled out. As a result of the hocks he had compensatory pain higher up in the SI joint.

 

[Melody Grey]

Things that spring to mind;
SI joint problems
Foot balance issues
Hip impingement or other problem
Hind gut ulcers

…and as a real curveball that I’ve seen … broken rib(s)

…I wouldn’t have said you’re out of options to investigate yet, though whether or not you choose to is of course your decision.

Eta: have the back x-rays been checked for spondylitis?

Could also be ligament strain in the back?

 

[teach]

The sore back on my horse was secondary to a sesamoidian ligament injury. Didn’t look lame to the naked eye, but located by nerve blocks

 

[nutjob]

One of mine was similar with an SI problem. He wasn't lame as such but just not moving correctly and the physio could tell he was guarding when working on the back. My vet knew him well so recognised he wasn't right.

Another one had back pain due to postural changes from a long term front leg problem, he developed a bit of a sway back appearance which wasn't his normal posture. He was hardly lame as he was compensating well but it was a long standing problem. He was walking out as part of the front leg rehab and had a couple of bad bucking incidents.

 

[YourValentine]

My horse had a sore back few years back due to NPA in the front feet, x rays confirmed.
Its worth x raying the hinds aswell as its more common for horses to be npa behind.
Have you had physio/chiro?

Regular physio, always sore in the same areas, behind the saddle and between hip and SI if that makes sense.

Saddle checked regularly by 2 different saddlers, and again recently. So not that.

 

[AmyMay]

Regular physio, always sore in the same areas, behind the saddle and between hip and SI if that makes sense.

Saddle checked regularly by 2 different saddlers, and again recently. So not that.

Sounds familiar.

My horse had coffin joint disease….

 

[Pinkvboots]

Sounds like it could be si joint pain what's his canter like as it normally affects that more than anything else.

If your not wanting to have the bone scan might be worth getting the si joint treated it's quite a simple procedure and not that expensive.

I would also check the hind suspensories and hocks if you haven't already as they can cause back pain.

You can't always see lameness unless you block 1 leg if it is bilateral so might be worth blocking the opposite side to the hip that dips.

 

[YourValentine]

To reply to a few peoples questions:


Has had periods of not quite right but not visibly lame, on and off, with no relation to work load, since I've owned him (3 years) But generally come right with a few days rest and physio.

This is probably the lightest work he's been in, done very little all winter due to my health, and is showing clear discomfort/pain.

Clear dislike of back papiltation atm.

I had a full lameness work up about 18 months ago because of the on/off not quite right. Flew through it. Didn't do any further tests xrays at the time as no where obvious to start.

All 4 feet Xrayed ~6 months ago, because of what turned out to be 2, 1 in front 1 behind at the same time, abcesses (nothing coming out with poultice, thought something else was going on). Completely clear, well apart from abcesses.

 

[YourValentine]

Hocks not xrayed yet, asked the Vet today while he had xray machine out and he said he could but didn't think they'd show anything. I could insist I guess.

Tried nerve blocking but it was a bit hit&miss due to attempts to kick the vet. What we did mange didn't change anything.

 

[Zoeypxo]

To reply to a few peoples questions:


Has had periods of not quite right but not visibly lame, on and off, with no relation to work load, since I've owned him (3 years) But generally come right with a few days rest and physio.

This is probably the lightest work he's been in, done very little all winter due to my health, and is showing clear discomfort/pain.

Clear dislike of back papiltation atm.

I had a full lameness work up about 18 months ago because of the on/off not quite right. Flew through it. Didn't do any further tests xrays at the time as no where obvious to start.

All 4 feet Xrayed ~6 months ago, because of what turned out to be 2, 1 in front 1 behind at the same time, abcesses (nothing coming out with poultice, thought something else was going on). Completely clear, well apart from abcesses.

Thanks for clarifying, it makes more sense now.
I do think the back pain is more than likely secondary from what you describe. Hocks or stifles would be top of the list for me.
Someone on my yard recently had a sore pony with a sore back and some mild lameness only really noticeable when blocked. Back x rayed clear but has stifle and hock arthritis, injected with steroid and is now greatly improved. Obviously it will need long term maintenance but is currently manageable.
Are you insured ?

 

[Melody Grey]

This is probably the lightest work he's been in, done very little all winter due to my health, and is showing clear discomfort/pain.

This makes me wonder whether it’s a weakness in musculature in the back that you’ve been previously keeping toned through more consistent work?

I have a cob here with KS who is much better in consistent, though low level work.

 

[SEL]

Hocks or poor hoof balance usual contributors. Vets gave one of mine steroid into her SI to see what would happen - huge improvement (she then damaged something else...)

PSSM can cause stiffness that's hard to pin down and on/off lameness

It's a tough one if the vet work up isn't highlighting anything obvious.

 

[TheHairyOne]

Tail straight? Its a sign on one of mine if it starts to get a bit wonky his SI's not quite right again. He also has a slight hip drop when his single duff hock needs redoing. He appears totally sound when its just starting to niggle again.

You would probably say its not 'too bad' as he goes about 3 years on his SI and 18 months on his hock between injections and is 20, but good riding to keep everything strong is essential. I suspect your easy winter has probably lost you some of the supporting muscles making it worse.

Id also just get the SI done before 2k of bone scan. Its about £300 from my vets.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

One of our vets last year said that 70% of back pain comes from hind end lameness.

Honestly, how far are you willing to investigate and how much money if insurance is covered?

I would start at the top and work my way down byt most likely thinking hocks, PSD, Suspensories etc....

 

[YourValentine]

Only insured for field accidents etc not this sort of thing.

Will talk to the vet about x-raying hocks and stifles.

 

[sbloom]

I often say that primary/secondary isn't always helpful. If he's not got skeletal (congenital) issues then it's so often "just" a compensatory movement pattern, the cause could be WAY back. The body copes/masks for so long, then you start to see issues.

Have a read of the website and FB page of someone like Encompass Equine Solutions, there are more and more people taking this sort of approach ie. restraining the movement patterns.

Some good ideas already posted to take to vet. I would argue that saddle may be playing a part even if it's been passed by two fitters. They can fit the horse and sort of fit you yet place you on slightly the wrong part of the back, and sitting slightly (or seriously) incorrectly for the horse to carry you easily. A strong horse may cope but once you get other issues then it feeds into the cycle.

You'll want him to change shape on return to work, probably, so a different saddle MAY be part of the solution.

 

[YourValentine]

Sounds like it could be si joint pain what's his canter like as it normally affects that more than anything else.

If your not wanting to have the bone scan might be worth getting the si joint treated it's quite a simple procedure and not that expensive.

I would also check the hind suspensories and hocks if you haven't already as they can cause back pain.

You can't always see lameness unless you block 1 leg if it is bilateral so might be worth blocking the opposite side to the hip that dips.

Canter is completely normal, as in even reach with both hinds. No difference between legs.

 

[YourValentine]

Tail straight? Its a sign on one of mine if it starts to get a bit wonky his SI's not quite right again. He also has a slight hip drop when his single duff hock needs redoing. He appears totally sound when its just starting to niggle again.

You would probably say its not 'too bad' as he goes about 3 years on his SI and 18 months on his hock between injections and is 20, but good riding to keep everything strong is essential. I suspect your easy winter has probably lost you some of the supporting muscles making it worse.

Id also just get the SI done before 2k of bone scan. Its about £300 from my vets.

Tail completely straight, never carried unevenly.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Are you totally sure the saddle fits? What sort of horse is he and what saddle have you got?

 

[moorhillhorses]

I think this is a fairly pointless post and grasping at straws but..

Anyone had a horse x-ray clear for kissing spines, like not even slightly close/questionable but 100% clear. But showing clear signs of pain/discomfort on the lunge which from his movement suggests back pain (back held stiff). Also increasingly grumpy about being tacked up.

Appears 100% sound walking and trotting up, no change after flexion tests, no change on a slope, no difference hard or soft surface. No discomfort in the neck, happily bends and flexes it.

Scoped clear for ulcers.

Does dip/drop 1 hip a bit more than the other.

Is/was in very light work, hacking once a week +/- (doing far more exercise by himself in the field)

The only real next invesgative step the vet felt is a £2k bone scan. Expected to confirm back pain deep in the vertebra, possibly arthritis or some other injury/damage, which would be untreatable. So why put him through the stress of doing it. Vet didn't think it would be terribly worth while/ show something different.

I have some bute to make sure he is pain free while I get sorted but plan is PTS shortly. As vet suspects he's always uncomfortable, so not field sound.

Basically asking if anyone has had similar signs and found a cause vet and I haven't thought of? Very unlikely I realise.

Hind gut ulcers? Equinectar might help

 

[Cowpony]

I've just been through this and arthritis of a spinal joint just in front of SI was detected with a portable ultrasound scanner.

 

[YourValentine]

I've just been through this and arthritis of a spinal joint just in front of SI was detected with a portable ultrasound scanner.

Hope you don't mind me asking, what was the outcome from that diagnosis?

 

[YourValentine]

Are you totally sure the saddle fits? What sort of horse is he and what saddle have you got?

Yes. And had it for a while and he's been fine in it. It has been tricky to find something that fits us both. Had extensive discussions with both Saddlers about alternatives and neither can think of anything that might work better, and have brought up alternatives to check.

 

[sport horse]

How old is the horse. What work would you ideally like him to be doing? Unless he is a competition horse maybe a really good physio or ask the vet to medicate the back and see if it helps before spening a fortune or giving up?