Back problems

[Wheels]

M first presented with a sore back in mid April - the vets and physios weren't working at the time due to COVID restrictions so I gave him a week off, did some massaging and stretching with him and he seemed OK so we did a week or so of very light work and I assumed he had got himself cast or something similar and all looked to be back to normal.

In early June he was a bit sore again, another week off and a physio visit and things again back to normal. By the end of June he was sore again so I booked the vets for a lameness exam. Unfortunately before we made it to the vets he had a mild lami attack so when we actually went for the exam it was foot xrays etc. rather than when we originally went in for. Now he was trotted up in straight lines (slight inclines) on a hard surface and apparently not lame, on a circle on the soft he was deemed not lame although not fully striding out but he was very sore on the hard on a circle. None of this is surprising given the mild lami. His back at this point was extremely sore on palpation, so much so that as well as the hoof xrays, we also took a series of back xrays just to make sure there was no KS. I believe the phrase the vet used was 'there is clearly no KS, in fact you could park a bus between his processes'

So danilon prescribed for Ms lami, box rest and soaked hay to get his weight down etc. and hand walking in boots (he is barefoot)

At this stage I was unsure whether he had perhaps had ongoing low grade laminitis and the back issue was secondary to that. However, he isn't really footsore now apart from large sharp stones but his back is still sore and so I think there may be something else lurking.

Since that vet visit he has had a massage therapist out, daily stretching from me (carrot stretches without the carrots, belly lifts, butt tucks etc.) and he also saw Rob Jackson at the end of July. Rob found that he was very tight in the lumbar area and his axial rotation was limited in the lumbar and sacral areas. After some manipulations this was much improved so we got given some polework exercises to do and told I could ride - changing one of the handwalks per day for a ride instead. The first week after Robs visit and the back tightness was easing but over the last few days M has become pretty sore again. Now I did end up riding out for longer last weekend than I had intended and he was very tired and slow on the way home so I think I set him back a little but it is getting quite worrying as he's not his usual buzzy happy self on our morning walks.

His back is a lot tighter in a morning and seems to improve a bit during the day but he still reacts to palpation along his back and in between the ribs. The muscles of the lumbar are a bit harder than the other muscles. This all does improve after the stretching and after exercise with hardly any reaction after his walks but within half an hour or so he's back to reacting to the palpation.

Anyway - we are back at the vets on Monday and I suppose I'm looking for ideas / thoughts / experiences of similar issues you've had (and some reassurance, hugs, wine, chocolate or whatever is on offer )

 

[dorsetladette]

Hugs, wine and chocolate heading your way. They do worry us sometimes don't they.

I can't help anymore than that I'm afraid.

 

[ycbm]

Virtual hug because this type of issue is a nightmare. Assuming he has a heel first landing in front, I'd be looking at, probably in this order, hock joints, PSD, SI, intraspinous ligament strain. If nothing was found on x ray and scan of the back legs, and I had the budget, I'd put him through a scintigraph to try to find hot spots. Good luck on Monday.
.

 

[BBP]

I know you can’t translate one case to another but my horse also had ‘bus parking’ back xrays whilst palpating extremely sore over back especially over last ribs. Trotted up great for the vet (typical as he had looked rubbish at home, guess it was the adrenaline of being at the vet hospital) with just minor positive on off hind fetlock. Anyways, we scanned suspensories anyway and he has chronic psd in one hind. He has been changing his posture to take the pressure off the sore bits and we think that is creating the back pain. Do you think your horse has decent posture? Does he camp under either front or back or both, or have weak abs, overdeveloped under neck, anything like that? How are his feet? Low heel, long toe, weak digital cushion? Or perfectly balanced? Do his fetlocks drop excessively on movement (I hadn’t noticed this on mine til people on here pointed it out)?

You can have hugs too.

 

[Wheels]

Virtual hug because this type of issue is a nightmare. Assuming he has a heel first landing in front, I'd be looking at, probably in this order, hock joints, PSD, SI, intraspinous ligament strain. If nothing was found on x ray and scan of the back legs, and I had the budget, I'd put him through a scintigraph to try to find hot spots. Good luck on Monday.
.

Thanks, yes he is landing heel first and has been for a good while, 5 or 6 weeks after pulling his shoes in november and that hasn't changed

 

[Wheels]

I know you can’t translate one case to another but my horse also had ‘bus parking’ back xrays whilst palpating extremely sore over back especially over last ribs. Trotted up great for the vet (typical as he had looked rubbish at home, guess it was the adrenaline of being at the vet hospital) with just minor positive on off hind fetlock. Anyways, we scanned suspensories anyway and he has chronic psd in one hind. He has been changing his posture to take the pressure off the sore bits and we think that is creating the back pain. Do you think your horse has decent posture? Does he camp under either front or back or both, or have weak abs, overdeveloped under neck, anything like that? How are his feet? Low heel, long toe, weak digital cushion? Or perfectly balanced? Do his fetlocks drop excessively on movement (I hadn’t noticed this on mine til people on here pointed it out)?

You can have hugs too.

Until recently he had very good posture, now I can tell when he is going to be more sore because his back is dropped slightly and it looks like he has a bit of atrophy but other times during the day his posture is good. Maybe some minor camping under of fore and hind legs at certain times but no dropping fetlocks at the standstill or in motion.

His feet were great until his recent mild lami and now they are a bit flared. There is not loads of heel but you wouldn't call them low and the toes are a bit long due to the flare but I'm rasping them back weekly anyway otherwise the hoof boots are too tight.

The vet reckoned there was no rotation but I think I can see some minor rotation in the xrays attached. We are seeing a different vet tomorrow so I will get a second opinion on that

 

[ycbm]

The vet reckoned there was no rotation but I think I can see some minor rotation in the xrays attached. We are seeing a different vet tomorrow so I will get a second opinion on that View attachment 53357View attachment 53358

I agree with you. Minor, but there.

 

[Henry02]

I’ve had rob look at a horse of mine. Several issues were found which he sorted.

whilst follow up visits are not normally required after he’s been, with mine she needed further help.

she’d been moving “wrong” for so long, that when rob fixed this, she started moving more correctly. This in turn then appeared to make her sore in other areas due to them nit being used properly for years

 

[Wheels]

we were at the vets yesterday evening - this is a new practise to me and I really liked the vet, he was thorough and asked lots of questions etc.

walked and trotted up, flexion tests on all 4 legs which showed nothing of significance in terms of the joints. However, M was 'pottery' during the trot ups and especially on a circle on the hard surface. The vet doesn't think that there is currently any laminitis going on, M is a good weight, not digital pulses etc. but he does think the soles are not the best - they don't look particularly thin on the xrays but neither are they particularly deep. He has advised to put shoes and pads on for now to give M a bit of help. I showed him the xrays from the end of June and he agreed with me that there is some very minor rotation there but not of great significance. He gave M a thorough back exam and can see that he is a bit tight and sore but believes the back is secondary to whatever is going on with the feet. He was a little slow to react on some of the stretches he was asked for but that makes sense if he is a bit tight and sore. I asked about possible suspensory issues and he said that he couldn't rule it out but that his feet needed to be sorted out first otherwise couldn't do the relevant nerve blocks etc. which is fair enough.

Today we had a chiropracter visit which M completely loved. Again he was a bit stuck in the lumbar which was released and a few tight spots here and there but she actually said that M has less issues in his musculoskeletal system than most horses she sees who are deemed by their owners to have no issues. She's given me a few exercises to do, stretches to help stop him getting 'stuck' again so we will do those daily. She is happy for me to ride on soft surfaces if his feet are up to it.

So - I have been in contact with a remedial farrier who is supposedly the best around and we will try the boots and pads and see how we get on.

 

[SEL]

With BBP and your post plus a few pages on FB I've started to think the camping out I'm seeing in mine could well be down to feet rather than her muscles (she has PSSM). Also got a suspensory issue in the right hind which seems to be getting progressively worse despite rest and rehab which would suggest it is compensating for 'something'. She's got worse since the rain came and her feet softened too. She's had 2 sessions with Rob Jackson and his adjustments don't stick for long.

My physio is thinking along the lines that BBP mentioned on one of her threads in that you need them to be stepping out comfortably for as close to 24 hours a day as you can to stand any chance of changing muscle patterns and I only boot up for riding, not in the field.

Another friend has made huge improvements in sole depth with shoes and pads after being a die-hard barefoot horse owner for years. They literally did it as a last chance and have turned their horse around.

Sorry, waffling - will be interested to see if you notice improvement with the shoes and pads.

 

[BBP]

With BBP and your post plus a few pages on FB I've started to think the camping out I'm seeing in mine could well be down to feet rather than her muscles (she has PSSM). Also got a suspensory issue in the right hind which seems to be getting progressively worse despite rest and rehab which would suggest it is compensating for 'something'. She's got worse since the rain came and her feet softened too. She's had 2 sessions with Rob Jackson and his adjustments don't stick for long.

My physio is thinking along the lines that BBP mentioned on one of her threads in that you need them to be stepping out comfortably for as close to 24 hours a day as you can to stand any chance of changing muscle patterns and I only boot up for riding, not in the field.

Another friend has made huge improvements in sole depth with shoes and pads after being a die-hard barefoot horse owner for years. They literally did it as a last chance and have turned their horse around.

Sorry, waffling - will be interested to see if you notice improvement with the shoes and pads.

I’m definitely seeing improvements in BBPs posture having used the boots and pads 23/7, and with an adjustment to trimming. I’ll catch a glance at him and find that over 50% of the time he’s standing more correctly in front, with his forelimbs vertical instead of camped under. He’s had the boots off for the last 48hours as it’s been so wet, but he’s still doing better so I’m hoping the changes are holding. His back is still very sore, but I haven’t been able to do much therapy wise due to broken toe. Osteopath is out tomorrow having been on maternity and she is excellent, so I’m really looking forwards to her input. She is the one that told me repetition repetition repetition. As many good ones as possible to over ride the bad ones. And to start with the foot and work up, you will never fix higher up if the feet aren’t right.

 

[Wheels]

I’m definitely seeing improvements in BBPs posture having used the boots and pads 23/7, and with an adjustment to trimming. I’ll catch a glance at him and find that over 50% of the time he’s standing more correctly in front, with his forelimbs vertical instead of camped under. He’s had the boots off for the last 48hours as it’s been so wet, but he’s still doing better so I’m hoping the changes are holding. His back is still very sore, but I haven’t been able to do much therapy wise due to broken toe. Osteopath is out tomorrow having been on maternity and she is excellent, so I’m really looking forwards to her input. She is the one that told me repetition repetition repetition. As many good ones as possible to over ride the bad ones. And to start with the foot and work up, you will never fix higher up if the feet aren’t right.

You leave boots on in the field then? I might need to do that if the farrier takes a while to come out. Hes been on the harstanding for a number of weeks because of the lami but I think he could go out in the crappy winter paddock or with a muzzle in the summer forld for a short while at least

 

[BBP]

You leave boots on in the field then? I might need to do that if the farrier takes a while to come out. Hes been on the harstanding for a number of weeks because of the lami but I think he could go out in the crappy winter paddock or with a muzzle in the summer forld for a short while at least

Currently mine spends some time on hard standing and arena with boots and pads on and some time in the field. If the field is hard then I take the boots off as he tends to gallop super fast into corners and the boots don’t grip well enough to keep him upright! If field is muddy or slick he stays on the hard standing with his boots on. I’m trying to have them on as much as I can so every step is a good comfortable step that benefits him. So better 23 hours a day with pads on and 1 hour without than the other way around. But it’s really important to find boots that fit really well and to keep them as clean and dry as possible to avoid rubs or anything silly.

 

[Wheels]

Currently mine spends some time on hard standing and arena with boots and pads on and some time in the field. If the field is hard then I take the boots off as he tends to gallop super fast into corners and the boots don’t grip well enough to keep him upright! If field is muddy or slick he stays on the hard standing with his boots on. I’m trying to have them on as much as I can so every step is a good comfortable step that benefits him. So better 23 hours a day with pads on and 1 hour without than the other way around. But it’s really important to find boots that fit really well and to keep them as clean and dry as possible to avoid rubs or anything silly.

Thank you, that makes sense

He has renegade vipers all round although the fronts are a little bit tight due to the flare but still doing the job

 

[BBP]

Thank you, that makes sense

He has renegade vipers all round although the fronts are a little bit tight due to the flare but still doing the job

I love my renegades for riding, but I’d say they probably aren’t recommended for turnout due to the wire cabling, I guess it could cause injury if it frays. They also aren’t generally thought to be any good for using with pads as there is nothing to stop the pad from sliding out of the back. That said, I am using mine for turnout on the hinds as they have stayed put brilliantly even through some crazy antics, and the pads have stayed in too, which I hadn’t expected. I use Cavallos at the front for turnout. They are a bit clumpier than I’d like and he thinks he’s a Tennessee walking horse when he trots, but they are good for use with pads.

 

[BBP]

Renegades clinging on. Cavallos had both flown off already!

 

[Wheels]

With BBP and your post plus a few pages on FB I've started to think the camping out I'm seeing in mine could well be down to feet rather than her muscles (she has PSSM). Also got a suspensory issue in the right hind which seems to be getting progressively worse despite rest and rehab which would suggest it is compensating for 'something'. She's got worse since the rain came and her feet softened too. She's had 2 sessions with Rob Jackson and his adjustments don't stick for long.

My physio is thinking along the lines that BBP mentioned on one of her threads in that you need them to be stepping out comfortably for as close to 24 hours a day as you can to stand any chance of changing muscle patterns and I only boot up for riding, not in the field.

Another friend has made huge improvements in sole depth with shoes and pads after being a die-hard barefoot horse owner for years. They literally did it as a last chance and have turned their horse around.

Sorry, waffling - will be interested to see if you notice improvement with the shoes and pads.

I will update the thread, waiting on a date for the farrier visit but in the mean time I will keep him in the stable and field only rather than the hard standing and hand walk in the arena, then hes always got a soft surface


He certainly wasnt foot sore when I turned him out for a bit last night on the winter field. Hopefully his grazing muzzle will be here in the next couple of days and he can go out out

 

[Wheels]

As of today I have a shod pony again.

The farrier didnt think he needed pads and that they bring their own grief unless they are absolutely necessary as they lead to softened soles. He also doesnt think we need back shoes long term but put some on today to make sure M is as comfortable as possible. We will remove them after a couple of shoeing cycles.

We trotted up before and after and there was some improvement which he thinks will continue to improve as his feet get less sore.

The back issue has improved quite a bit over the last few weeks as I have either kept him in on rubber mats / shavings or on the winter paddock and only ridden in the arena and in the field which has been soft. Now we will slowly return to hacking and hard standing for some of the day as that's easier for me to keep a check on his weight.

Keeping my fingers crossed that this resolves the back issue over the next few weeks although keeping an open mind on that one.

 

[ycbm]

You can only do what you feel is right. Fingers crossed for you too.
.

 

[Wheels]

You can only do what you feel is right. Fingers crossed for you too.
.

Well I feel a bit of a failure for not making the barefoot thing work as I do honestly believe that a well functioning bare foot is the absolute ultimate but the farrier today did comment on the flat soles on the front feet and whilst I can boot for work there is still another 23 hours in the day that his soles are not currently coping with

So I'm a bit conflicted because it was lovely to see him happier in the trot up and I am looking forward to increasing the workload over the coming weeks, I hope this works out for us!

 

[ycbm]

No need for guilt, honestly. We don't all have perfect environments, or enough time, and some horses are much more difficult than others.
.

 

[Wheels]

I thought I'd do a quick update, its 3 weeks since M had his shoes put on. We have increased workload now to 50 - 60 mins per day mostly walking but just starting to add some short bursts of trot.

Over the first week I was already starting to see improvements, the second week the back was showing hardly any sensitivity and this week only one morning showed any sensitivity.

So I am keeping a close eye and increasing work very gradually but we are on the right track. He is walking out on the roads really well and better than when he was wearing boots. He will have a chiropractor visit in a few weeks so will be interesting if she sees an improvement in the deeper muscles and joints.

 

[Wheels]

Another update - I now believe the back issue to not really be a back issue at all. I think it is inflammation or sensitivity when he has had something in his diet that doesnt agree with him. We had no issues at all with it over the winter, whilst he was on restricted turnout due to ground conditions he was fine out on a relatively bare paddock eating hay. However, we got a little flush of grass over a few warm days in mid feb, he had been in the yard / hard standing for a few days but then got a little field turnout for a few hours one day. The next day he was reacting again along his ribs and rib shelf so I kept him in the yard again for a week and it gradually got better over 5 or 6 days and we haven't had any issues since, neither has he been turned out in the field.

Just wanted to update in case anyone is facing the same issues.

 

[ycbm]

That's incredibly interesting. I wonder if you will ever be able to work out which plants are causing the problem.
.

 

[Wheels]

I'm not sure if I will ever know and to try and find out would drive me insane