Back Shoe Sedation - HELP!

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stablegirl130

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Hi all,
I have owned my chestnut mare (!!) for 5 years now and have always had problems with shoeing her. She has improved a lot with the fronts and can have these done normally but I have to have her sedated every 6 weeks for her backs to be done which is costing a bomb! She is 16.2, so a big girl and due to the amount of work I do with her and her incredibly flat feet, she really needs them on! I tried her barefoot on the back but it didnt work out. She is absolutely fine with me holding them, but a vet or farrier has no chance! I have practiced banging them and lifting them up on a bucket and holding them high and she is absolutely fine, but completely changes with vet/farrier. My dad can pick them out so I dont think its an issue with males! I have also tried the gel oral sedations with no luck whatsoever, she just fights through it. I am really looking for any suggestions whatsoever! Have been considering a behaviourist - is this the right sort of case that they deal with? And if so can anyone reccommend one or any other method?
Many Thanks
xx
 
I have tried twitching her when I first got her but when I bought her she was very nervous and she tends to fight through things like that. I dont know if her behaviour is due to past experiences/lack of trust or just bad behaviour which is why im really stuck! Thankyou for your suggestion, I might try it again next week!
 
My friend used to have a horse with wobbles,and he was very difficult to shoe behind,due to balance.
She would put a bucket of fed on the ground for him,and then he was perfect......maybe worth a try??
 
If I were you and had been trying to sort this problem for five years withhout success, I would admit defeat, leave the hind shoes off and find her a diet that improves hoof quality, perhaps try hoof boots too.
 
What does she actually do when shod? Does she snatch the foot away, tremble, rear or just generally prance about? When you pick the foot up, do you actually hold the foot in all the positions the farrier would do (some horses are difficult when the hindleg is extended behind them, which is a position that may not be encountered during normal hoof picking). You need to determine whether this is a physical issue (due to EPSM, a 'shiver', or some hindleg condition such as spavins etc) or just a behavioural issue.
 
Is she the same with all farriers? Mine would not be shod by one - he was quite impatient. I noticed that her favourite farrier has a couple of techniques she approves of :rolleyes: One is that when he goes to pick her feet up, he runs his hand down her leg and taps, which is what I do - rather than going straight to the fetlock and lifting her feathers. In other words, she doesn't get taken by surprise. The other is that he doesn't get flustered if she gets stressed. If she snatches her foot away he quietly asks again, and if it all starts to go a bit wrong he just moves on to another foot and comes back to it. Sometimes it's as simple as going to the front, picking it up, gently putting it back down, then going immediately to the back again. He has decided she must have had a nail prick, as she gets really tense - holds her breath when he is doing it. So now I make sure she has a haynet, and I stand at her head with a handful of treats, quietly keeping her attention on me. His final trick is not to bang the nails too hard. Sounds silly, but she flinches if he whacks them too hard, so it's all softly softly. With a previous farrier I was using sedaline, now I don't need anything but the sweets. Seems like she has me well trained ;)

Not sure if any of that would be useful. Other thing to suggest is asking the farrier to come up and just pick her feet out sometimes. Final thought is veterinary - any chance she might have hock issues? Although she is fine with you, farriers do have to hold their legs up for longer?

Good luck - it's a very frustrating problem. Oh and though I've never used them, I believe a behaviourist would be able to help with this problem.
 
I would want to rule out foot pain - the fact that she is flat footed and was very sore when you tried her without shoes at the back suggests she may have foot pain/inflammation that is aggrevated when nails are banging into the foot. Would also explain why she is fine to have feet picked up/picked out but not with the farrier actually shoeing. When a horse bucks or bolts most people's first response is to say get teeth/saddle/back checked. Yet if a horse is difficult to shoe most people don't firstly wonder if there is a pain response reason for it. What's her diet? She sounds like she needs a low sugar/starch diet, cut out all molasses and any other 'nasties'. In the meantime forget the hind shoes (she's clearly trying to tell you something) and get her some hoof boots.
 
My mare is the same but with her front not her back. With her back she does try to pull away but if I growl at her she stops with her front it is a hassle to get them up and once up she will drop to her knees but only does this with him whom we don't mention. Have tried to sedate her but after giving her twice the recommended dose I gave up. She now gets done in the sand school so that she doesn't hurt herself and yes she is 16.2 chestnut mare will let me do anything with her and follows me in and out of field without head collar.
 
Thanks for all responses!

Handing front foot to him is how I overcame her behaviour on the front feet, however I havent tried this on the back since shes had them back on in the last 2 years. When I tried it when I first got her she let me hand it to him but as soon as he started to pull the shoe off she went for him. She does try to kick out and is just a general fidget and unlike the fronts, when she walks through him he cant hold on! And also has admitted to me he doesnt want to persevere when his business is at stake (fair enough), which reflects his impatience as after shes done this a couple of times he gets cross with her and gives up. Unfortunately he is not the type to want to help me get her better and is quite awkward in appointment booking etc. For this reason I have considered a different farrier, but as he does all the others at my yard, and is friends with most of the farriers in my area I am not sure how this would go down! She does have a spavin in one of her back legs but was told by the vet that it shouldnt cause any problems, however I have noticed that its got bigger but only in the last 6 months and obviously this issue has been going on for a long time.

The wobbles is a very interesting point, and I will definitely be up for giving it a go. Unfortunately the thing about her going barefoot is that a) I need studs in for x country, and b) my vet has advised I keep them on for the health of her hooves. I have tried to raise the hoof high on my knee and she is fine, its mainly the pulling off of the shoe. (not that we get any further than that anyway!)

When the vet picks up her feet, even if its just a front one she walks all over him. She has a very clever was of using her weight to get her own way! Although she does not try this with me so it is very difficult to get any improvements! She is on a basic diet of hi fibre cubes and hi fi original.

Louise - Love it! Cant live with them, cant live without them. Brilliant solution if it works for you! Unfortunately my mare goes up rather than down!
 
My youngster is like this and it is the smell of the farrier which sets him off. I've tried a lady farrier and my very patient male farrier he is the same with both. He lets anyone else pick his feet up & is perfectly sensible. He is interested in the farriers van & looks calm & attentive, the farrier walks up to him and puts a hand out & the minute the horse sniffs his hand he gets quite aggressive.
Mine is young and I'm sure we'll overcome it, but one thing I have thought about doing is getting an old farriers apron so I smell like a farrier and just get him used to it.
 
stablegirl130 said:
Thanks for all responses!

Handing front foot to him is how I overcame her behaviour on the front feet, however I havent tried this on the back since shes had them back on in the last 2 years. When I tried it when I first got her she let me hand it to him but as soon as he started to pull the shoe off she went for him. She does try to kick out and is just a general fidget and unlike the fronts, when she walks through him he cant hold on! And also has admitted to me he doesnt want to persevere when his business is at stake (fair enough), which reflects his impatience as after shes done this a couple of times he gets cross with her and gives up. Unfortunately he is not the type to want to help me get her better and is quite awkward in appointment booking etc. For this reason I have considered a different farrier, but as he does all the others at my yard, and is friends with most of the farriers in my area I am not sure how this would go down! She does have a spavin in one of her back legs but was told by the vet that it shouldnt cause any problems, however I have noticed that its got bigger but only in the last 6 months and obviously this issue has been going on for a long time.

The wobbles is a very interesting point, and I will definitely be up for giving it a go. Unfortunately the thing about her going barefoot is that a) I need studs in for x country, and b) my vet has advised I keep them on for the health of her hooves. I have tried to raise the hoof high on my knee and she is fine, its mainly the pulling off of the shoe. (not that we get any further than that anyway!)

When the vet picks up her feet, even if its just a front one she walks all over him. She has a very clever was of using her weight to get her own way! Although she does not try this with me so it is very difficult to get any improvements! She is on a basic diet of hi fibre cubes and hi fi original.

Louise - Love it! Cant live with them, cant live without them. Brilliant solution if it works for you! Unfortunately my mare goes up rather than down!
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Plenty of people jump barefoot horses and you can add studs to hoof boots if you really think you need them. Hi Fibre Cubes and Hi Fi Original both contain molasses. If she's reacting to the pulling off of the shoe then it is almost certainly a pain response. What exactly did your vet mean by keeping shoes on for the health of the hoof? It's pretty much accepted by all vets/farriers that hooves are healthier without shoes (better circulation/hoof can expand and contract and flex naturally etc), even if they don't all agree that horses can work at high levels without shoes (which they certainly can!)
 
It's possible you've got two problems going on. One, her general inclination to leave when something is happening that makes her uncomfortable. Your training up to this point seems to have addressed that reasonably efficiently, if she's now "normal" about the front feet and has been okay about the back ones. (How was she for just a trim when the shoes were off?)

But just because she has a "behavioural" issue doesn't mean she also doesn't have a physical difficultly as well. You say she has a history of spavins and you can actually see the changes in her hock recently. The external size of a spavin isn't necessarily related to how sore - or not - the horse is but if it's changing then, by definition, there's inflammation in the joint. Have you tried giving her an anti-inflammatory before shoeing? Perhaps the night before and morning of? A surprising number of older horses with aches and pains demonstrate this by being bad for the farrier (after all, it's a very similar situation to a long flexion test!) and are helped by that regime. It probably won't make her not care at all - as you say, there's history - but if it makes her more comfortable then it will help you work through the other issue.
 
My vet has said because of the angle of her foot unshod she should have them on as her heel was so close to the ground that it was causing problems. The shoe was needed as an elevator to ensure that her leg was in the right position, and my vet even mentioned wedges in the shoes as the lady that does my horses sport massage said that the angle of her leg was also affecting the muscles in her back.

An anti inflammatory would be interesting to try! - Thanks!
 
stablegirl130 said:
My vet has said because of the angle of her foot unshod she should have them on as her heel was so close to the ground that it was causing problems. The shoe was needed as an elevator to ensure that her leg was in the right position, and my vet even mentioned wedges in the shoes as the lady that does my horses sport massage said that the angle of her leg was also affecting the muscles in her back.
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But the heel is supposed to be close to the ground! One of the many benefits of not having shoes on is that the hoof can grow as it needs to, to suit the individual horse's conformation and to compensate for any old injuries or disease. By the angle of her leg do you perhaps mean that she stands with her back legs underneath her?
 
Yes I suppose you could say she stands with her back legs underneath her. Her hooves on the back get gradually narrower towards the heel. It is literally the skin of her heel that touches the ground unshod, and the hoof sticks out in front of it. Hard to describe but thats what it looks like. Her back frogs are flat when she is barefoot as the hoof wall gives no elevation. I see that you are a barefoot trimmer, so am keen to hear your opinion and the action you think I should take.
 
stablegirl130 said:
My vet has said because of the angle of her foot unshod she should have them on as her heel was so close to the ground that it was causing problems. The shoe was needed as an elevator to ensure that her leg was in the right position, and my vet even mentioned wedges in the shoes as the lady that does my horses sport massage said that the angle of her leg was also affecting the muscles in her back.

An anti inflammatory would be interesting to try! - Thanks!
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Erm, the heel should be on the ground? Hate to sound like a broken record, but I would be v suprised if with a balanced diet, a little careful trimming and stimulation for the hooves all the angles wouldn't come just right.
 
I'd be tempted to try a bute/danilon the night before the farrier visit and see if she improves - it will give you some idea as to whether it is pain related anyway. My old lad has a few arthritic changes in his hindlegs and will struggle to hold his back feet up if he doesn't have bute/danilon the night before. Luckily my farrier is mega patient and knows that if he does pull away, he's not being naughty but he just physically can't hold his foot up any longer.

I don't have him shod any more, either.
 
I have a mare who does the same, in the 8 months I've had her, she has progressed from trying to kill the farrier after a whole tube of Sedalin, to co-operating under one dose of IV sedation given by an attending vet. Each shoeing sees some improvement, but this is an honest mare who is genuinely not able to cope with having her backs done. My feeling is that the nails cause her pain on her back feet.
Last shoeing I gave her Bute the night before, the next time she'll have a double dose of bute an hour before and an oral sedation that dissolves under her tongue. More effective than Sedalin, but not as powerful as the IV given by the vet. However, the vet will be present in case Farrier gets shoes off and can't get new ones on.
I am hopeful that we can progress to Bute only, as in the time I've had her, she's come from from being labelled dangerous to one of the best horses I've ever had, which is why her behaviour when being shod doesn't make sense if there isn't a pain issue.
Like you, if leaving the shoes off was an option, I would, but for medical reasons she needs the shoes.
 
stablegirl130 said:
Yes I suppose you could say she stands with her back legs underneath her. Her hooves on the back get gradually narrower towards the heel. It is literally the skin of her heel that touches the ground unshod, and the hoof sticks out in front of it. Hard to describe but thats what it looks like. Her back frogs are flat when she is barefoot as the hoof wall gives no elevation. I see that you are a barefoot trimmer, so am keen to hear your opinion and the action you think I should take.
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Standing with their back legs underneath them is often a sign of foot pain in particular low grade laminitis (the laminae inflammation I was talking about above) - some people describe it as looking like a circus elephant standing on a ball. Have a read of the article on this website titled 'Low Grade Laminitis, a new understanding of hoof pathology' http://www.unshod.co.uk/articles.php

You could also post some photos on here - would be easier to give an opinion with photos as a guidance.

We go on about it all the time but diet is sooooo important. Too much sugar (and what is an okay sugar in take for one horse may be way too much for another) causes so many healthy problems which always show up in the feet first... bit like us with our nail and hair.
 
Her hooves have shown a tremendous improvement since i've been with this farrier over the past 2 1/2 years but it is clear to see that the flatness of her feet is the problem, and alongside my farrier I have done my best to get the angle right, but from the outset of buying her many people have commented on how flat her feet are. I know you can improve flat feet but there is no cure! And looking at other horses hooves at my yard, who all have the same farrier, hers are noticeably flat.

Mr Darcy - I know obviously sugar is the main cause of laminitis etc, but how would a diet withough molasses/sugar benefit the external hoof? I am not questioning you but I don't know myself!
 
stablegirl130 - some wise comments re the sugar. It does impact on the hoof both internally and externally.

If the balance of microbes in your horse's cecum is compromised by diet (or maybe something else) then even if you are stuffing your horse with food they can end up malnourished. For a more detailed explanation see here:

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/managing-your-microbes-or-how-to.html
(go past the gassy intro to the techy bit)

and there is a bit more here:

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/11/hind-gut-acidosis-learn-to-love-your.html

So if your horse has unhappy microbes not only do you risk laminitis but a horse that is not being fully nourished will struggle to maintain healthy horn (and may come across as lazy etc)

Flat feet are often associated with a diet inappropriate for that horse. But they can be made that way with less than ideal shoeing too.

You said all the horses on the yard done by the same farrier had flat feet? Is this perhaps a clue? In the same way that on other yards it can be seen that all the horses done by another farrier have tin cans for feet?

But - just to add to the mix - a sole which is not massively concave can still cope very well if it is in good health and has sufficient depth. I frequently use my own horse as an example. She has relatively flat feet, but copes quite nicely when her diet is right. I know her sole is at least 1cm thick in the toe area because she recently tried to slice off her whole frog and I got to see rather more of her sole than would normally be the case...........

Good luck with yours
 
Oh one slightly gross note - the last two I deshod have had nails through their back feet - ie inside the white line. Unsurprisingly they weren't thrilled with having their back feet done. Although they have both got much better since.
 
Bless - mine was the same - before I got her. And she has the scars from the misguided attempts to restrain her.

She has EPSM which if it is not managed makes it very painful for her to use her hind end and she is terrified of farriers. Gets very stressed and quite ill if she even hears one. Although she is slowly getting better so long as someone she trusts is about.

But after a diet change and a bit of TLC she is a joy for me to trim. Very light, very easy.

I just have to make sure there are no farriers about.............

They have long memories.

In fact I often wonder what happened to the foal I saw being chucked across the yard by a farrier because he lost his temper with it.
 
stablegirl130 said:
Her hooves have shown a tremendous improvement since i've been with this farrier over the past 2 1/2 years but it is clear to see that the flatness of her feet is the problem, and alongside my farrier I have done my best to get the angle right, but from the outset of buying her many people have commented on how flat her feet are. I know you can improve flat feet but there is no cure! And looking at other horses hooves at my yard, who all have the same farrier, hers are noticeably flat.

Mr Darcy - I know obviously sugar is the main cause of laminitis etc, but how would a diet withough molasses/sugar benefit the external hoof? I am not questioning you but I don't know myself!
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Flat feet can be improved hugely - again it's all down to diet. But even flatter feet (which you often see on heavier horses) can be strong barefeet, working over any sort of terrain.

Basically we are talking about low level laminitis here - the word laminitis simply means inflammation of the laminae. Too high sugar levels in the diet can cause what we traditionally know as laminitis (acute lameness, rocked back on heels,call vet asap) or much less acute attacks, sort of like a migraine v a mild headache. When laminae get inflammed they can die off, losing the connection to the hoof wall. This hoof wall no longer has a blood supply and like any living tissue if you remove the blood supply it dies leading to brittle hooves, amongst other things. Does that make sense?
 
stablegirl130 said:
So what diet is she on?
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Hay soaked for a minimum of 12 hours and then thoroughly rinsed with fresh water

100g (dry weight) soaked Kwik Beet
100g micronised linseed
100ml dried herbs (nettles and rose hips mostly)
250ml sunflower oil
1/2 tsp cal mag
1/2 tsp yea sacc 1026
1,000iu Vit E
vit min supplement

twice daily
 
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