Back to barefoot - long post, help desperately needed!

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emfen1305

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*winces sheepishly* me again :rolleyes:

So after some really great advice on keeping shoes on and it working for a week, the young Toby has decided he will not be defeated that easily and has decided to throw the left shoe.. fine, put it back on, tape it, cry at the cost of vet wrap and gorilla tape whilst waiting patiently for horsecrocz and more overreach boots to arrive whilst furiously researching opportunities to be sponsored by duct tape companies, cry more at ever growing balance on credit card realising that next month's pay has already been spent leaving just enough for one meal a day for me, cry one final time and then sleep.

Arrive this evening after painstakingly wrapping and taping two feet at 06:40 this morning, no tape, no expensive vet wrap, no left shoe and no back right shoe. Cry in the car for 10 minutes whilst Toby ate his hay none the wiser that I was contemplating leaving his stable door open tonight so he can run free.

So, crying has no stopped but cannot go on like this, I have decided to take the shoes back off and try and go back to rehabbing him barefoot. Is this a bad idea? Farrier keen to keep the shoes on and says "its the time of year, I will adjust them" but not quite sure what he means by that (he has also been known to throw them in the summer so not wholly convinced that this will change). I asked what exactly we were trying to achieve with the shoes but no reply. He has hind issues, had PSD surgery on both hinds 8 weeks ago, looks much better now so starting to rehab. He has had xrays that showed thin soles, imbalance in his fronts and nothing in his backs. My concern is to to with the long toe and low heel but not sure if actually it is that bad or if I am just fixating on them now (album of his feet can be found here https://imgur.com/a/7ccLl) - I originally thought back shoes would help to encourage the heel to grow but having read lots of things online, it seems this can be achieved without shoes.

So the point of this really long post is to ask for advice again - are his back feet that bad? Can I sort out front feet imbalance without shoes? Sorry these are really novicey questions but the "experts" want him shod but I can't keep going through this, he is clearly not a fan either! He is on a barefoot friendly diet, no extra hoof supplements or anything but I have a fair few products from red horse to help keep his hooves healthy and I plan to get boots - should I boot all 4 or just 2? Sorry for this absolute ramble, just offloading. Any help, as always, greatly appreciated. Happy to send biscuits for anyone who got this far!
 
I know I'm hopeless at looking at hoof pictures, but they look quite nice to me.... perhaps a bit over-trimmed but then I'm used to looking at three sets of bare feet that pretty much get to do their own thing. Bare is definitely the way forward for getting a healthy hoof that suits the horse, and I think you just have to try and see what happens. If the horse is uncomfortable, boot it (with pads if necessary) for the times it will be uncomfortable and not for any time that it isn't. Let the hoof do what it wants to without trimming - don't worry about raggedy or asymmetric hooves unless the horse becomes less sound than it has previously been. Read the Rockley Farm blog for lots of good sense and support with things that seem strange if you're used to shoeing but become totally normal for bare feet. Find a trimmer that you trust so you have some expert support in the shoeless camp.
 
I can only vaguely remember what his front feet look like.

But I would be inclined for the sake of the PSD and the situation with his hind hooves to try a bit longer.

Now I thought that he was mostly removing the fronts? but now he seems to have a hind off too? I was going to suggest just shoeing him behind...

I think if you do go barefoot you need to perhaps consider using boots in the therapeutic sense, with guidance to try and get them improved (hinds this is).

I shall leave this link here for your perusal too but if not wearing them all the time/just as likely to remove them in field, it needs thinking about
https://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/therapy_click/therapy_click.aspx

Fwiw because of his rather unique situation I am not sure the standard rules on heel growth apply. I would always tell owners to remove shoes for heel growth but either through wear/posture I dont think it's ever going to 'just happen' with yours like it would most.
 
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ester said:
I can only vaguely remember what his front feet look like.

But I would be inclined for the sake of the PSD and the situation with his hind hooves to try a bit longer.

Now I thought that he was mostly removing the fronts? but now he seems to have a hind off too? I was going to suggest just shoeing him behind...

I think if you do go barefoot you need to perhaps consider using boots in the therapeutic sense, with guidance to try and get them improved (hinds this is).

I shall leave this link here for your perusal too but if not wearing them all the time/just as likely to remove them in field, it needs thinking about
https://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/therapy_click/therapy_click.aspx

Fwiw because of his rather unique situation I am not sure the standard rules on heel growth apply. I would always tell owners to remove shoes for heel growth but either through wear/posture I dont think it's ever going to 'just happen' with yours like it would most.
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I spoke to the barefoot trimmer last night who is inclined to agree. She said: "On the hind x rays the angle of the toe is too low and sloping, and the heels too low, but it’s unlikely that much change can be achieved through trimming. It’s growing that way because of his stance and action."

This leaves us in a bit of a predicament, if i take the shoes off will the heels develop due to him standing better and using them as evidenced by him landing heel first on the videos?Or is there potential for them to continue in the way that they have been for so long which will eventually inflame the ligaments again.


She said she's not concerned with the imbalance and doesn't think the soles are particularly thin. Vet is convinced they are only thin because the trimmer made them that way which I 100% don't agree with as she never did anything with his soles but can't argue with her, there is no point.

The vet isn't happy about just shoeing him behind and neither is farrier so don't think I will be able to get them on board with that purely for the reason that when he is not booted then he will feel unbalanced and I am not sure I am comfortable booting him 24/7 as he will probably take them off as well. I am just so frustrated with it all, he is looking great at the moment, he is standing well and seems comfortable but it is really hurting my bank balance and the vet agreed wrapping and taping is not a feasible long term solution.

The vet was happy for me to try him barefoot with the thinking that now we have solved the lameness and uncomfortable way of going, the heels will develop due to correct use and stance and therefore the toes can come back but farrier thinks we can achieve this quicker and with more comfort to the horse with shoes so I am bit lost..

Sorry if that was a bit of a ramble, I was 100% convinced I was taking him barefoot last night but the trimmer is keen for me to follow vet's advice, vet wants me to follow farrier's advice and farrier's advice is to keep him shod so I feel a bit backed into a corner..how long will it be before I expect to see an improvement? will he likely need the shoes forever? I guess both of these questions are a bit how long is a piece of string-esque but just trying to prepare myself!
 
I would make sure they have decent reasons for not shoeing him only behind. I'm not sure adding an extra couple of centimeters to his front feet is going to make him feel more straight if he has wedges behind.

What does farrier think about the shoe secures?

My issue with the crocz is that if he is wearing them for any length of time ontop of shoes to keep them on it is going to screw up balance too, if they think taking shoes off the front is going to affect it so much.

If vet/farrier want to go the shoe route they need to give some consideration to how to keep them on, though if it's the mud that is doing it is it worth waiting until april/may time instead?
 
He doesn't have wedges behind, he is just shod normally with slight lateral extensions to provide heel support and the same in front, I originally thought he would need wedges but they agreed normal shoes would be enough and will help keep the costs down.

I did speak to him about it and he didn't seem against them (he thought they were a bit faddy 2 years ago but also hasn't had a horse pull off shoes as much as Toby does) so looks like that will be the route to go down in our next shoeing. My worry is ruining the thread but i will just have to be careful.

I agree, my vet also agreed that wrapping and taping long term is not ideal even if it does work (it's been fine on his right, didn't expect him to throw the left so didn't bother taping) so again, shoe secures are looking to be the most ideal option. My farrier is keen to "adjust" them to help stay on by not really sure what else he can do to them. Vet said that the farrier at theirs recommended two over reach boots which I tried but didn't help. I'm not sure if it is definitely the mud but I guess that would be the only logical solution; he has also been known to throw them in summer but it might have just been a bit unlucky (I also wasn't booting him at the time). My other option is to ask to move fields but to be honest, everywhere is the same. It is only muddy for the first 1/4 of the field then it flattens out.

Maybe I should just stick with it and keep taping until the 29th March when he gets the shoes with stud holes put on and I can get the shoe secures.. To be honest I was quite happy with the taping of one foot and how it was working but the thought of doing two which would mean using near enough a roll of vet wrap a day plus all of the tape was enough to tip me over the edge haha!
 
I rehomed a little ISH roughly 6 months after he had surgery for psd. He came with appalling feet, yet he had been shod by a remedial farrier to vet instructions. His heels were underun and crushed. Back feet had negative palmer angles. Frogs were tiny, black slimy things. Back shoes were pulled immediately, front ones 3 months later. He's never looked back.

I've got pics somewhere, I'll try to take some more today.
 
Regandal said:
I rehomed a little ISH roughly 6 months after he had surgery for psd. He came with appalling feet, yet he had been shod by a remedial farrier to vet instructions. His heels were underun and crushed. Back feet had negative palmer angles. Frogs were tiny, black slimy things. Back shoes were pulled immediately, front ones 3 months later. He's never looked back.

I've got pics somewhere, I'll try to take some more today.
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Thanks - Toby's feet are great quality, but his heels aren't getting the stimulation they need to develop, likely through years of a compensatory way of standing and moving so hind shoes were recommended to provide the heel support to help through rehab until he is stronger and has learnt to use himself correctly which makes total sense if weren't for the fact that he wont keep the front shoes on!
 
The option of only shoeing behind doesn't sound bad to me. I don't quite understand why the imbalance between front/hind is not a problem if only shoeing in front, but is a problem when only shoeing behind. Apart from that, the cm height difference can only be relevant if the horse moves on a perfectly flat surface, which surely isn't the case on turnout. If you use boots for any actual work (e.g. on flat road surfaces), you should be able to make sure he's comfortable and lift the front up that one cm. Unless he's sore when turned out without front shoes, I don't see how having him rip off shoes every few days can be any better.
And you could still decide to put shoes back on end of March with those shoesecure studs. Another pertinent question would be how the farrier intends to alter the front shoes next time so they stay on better. If his plan is to do away with the lateral extensions (which make it easier to step on and pull off the shoe), or to shorten the branches, then there's be little therapeutic value left in having shoes, rather than boots (and branches that are too short can lead to more trouble with heels not being properly supported).
No easy answers, but I do hope you can come up with some solution that doesn't leave you in tears, or bankrupt! Maybe fencing the boggiest bit of the field off could be another preventative measure?
 
supsup said:
The option of only shoeing behind doesn't sound bad to me. I don't quite understand why the imbalance between front/hind is not a problem if only shoeing in front, but is a problem when only shoeing behind. Apart from that, the cm height difference can only be relevant if the horse moves on a perfectly flat surface, which surely isn't the case on turnout. If you use boots for any actual work (e.g. on flat road surfaces), you should be able to make sure he's comfortable and lift the front up that one cm. Unless he's sore when turned out without front shoes, I don't see how having him rip off shoes every few days can be any better.
And you could still decide to put shoes back on end of March with those shoesecure studs. Another pertinent question would be how the farrier intends to alter the front shoes next time so they stay on better. If his plan is to do away with the lateral extensions (which make it easier to step on and pull off the shoe), or to shorten the branches, then there's be little therapeutic value left in having shoes, rather than boots (and branches that are too short can lead to more trouble with heels not being properly supported).
No easy answers, but I do hope you can come up with some solution that doesn't leave you in tears, or bankrupt! Maybe fencing the boggiest bit of the field off could be another preventative measure?
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This was precisely my thought process when I read the message that said "I will adjust" which basically meant to me that he was taking away the extensions at the front meaning that they are really adding no value. The hinds I suspect he will leave with the extensions, I believe this was a total one off as he has never lost hind shoe, he can't really take the extensions away as otherwise it would be completely pointless shoeing him at all! The last communication was that he would come back out to put the shoes back on so I am going with that and taping them until reshoeing on the 29th when he can fit the shoesecures (I ordered some today) which also coincides with next vet check up. Based on conversations with the trimmer and advice on here, I am inclined to keep pushing on with shoes behind so just need to keep persevering with the front and hope that the time and money pays off!

The field isn't helping, we have currently fenced the back half to rest which we do every year and they'll be let back on April/May time which will mean they wander off to the flat bit rather than hang around the front so just have to countdown until then! I could suggest moving the hay boxes onto the flat part of the field so they avoid the rutty part but they are further from the gate so I am therefore volunteering myself to put it out but might be worth it, and keep me fit haha!
 
Oh bless you, you're working so hard to get him right... Horses eh!

I think personally I would have him barefoot again and leave his feet without trimming for a couple of months, but don't really want to confuse the situation further so would definitely recommend you going forwards with the route that feels most right for him at the moment.

On the shoe pulling off issue, my friend had a similar problem a few years ago and her farrier ended up using those plaster cast type things directly on the hoof with the shoe nailed over the top. It definitely seemed to work for him, but he did have quite compromised hooves at the time.
 
Hi, I've only skim read this post and looked at the pictures.

Lovely quality feet. Yes Hinds are a bit low heel, long toe, but its not a total disaster.
I really feel for your obvious despair at the current time, and want to give you some support.

He's making his choice plain, he wants the shoes off. His feet won't fall apart, they're too well built, but he may be a bit pottery, the walls may chip and break etc, cosmetic issues.

So, in your shoes, I'd cut yourself some slack, leave the shoes off, rest him until he looks comfortable, then gently start doing some light work with him. Meanwhile, redress your finances and get your sanity back. He'll be OK, he's done it before and can do it again.
See what foot he wants to grow for a couple of months, it might be the best choice for both of you.
 
I don't think there is ever any concern about the feet falling apart as they have already been barefoot successfully and only very recently had shoes on. The trouble is (and I would be interested in what your views are on this) that over a periods of years his hind feet have not improved and he has PSD damage (chicken/egg situation there obviously) maybe the vet is right and operating on the PSD will allow the hind hooves to come through better? But for the previous few years certainly the hind hoof he wants to grow is one with a long toe, low heel... but that hasn't kept him sound or comfortable in recent years hence the work ups.

iirc the PSD is not the only physical issue sorry emfen I've forgotten did have hock arthritis or something as well?
 
Um, well don't really know all his history and have only looked at the linked hoof pics so not sure of conformation overall, but just for me personally (in the sense of 'if he were mine'), I would be of the opinion from those hoof pics that he needs to not be trimmed for a while.
 
Yes maybe, not sure what cycle he had been on, he just seems to be very good at putting down lots of frog but no horn at the back of his hinds.
 
Has your farrier been working with him all the time you have had him? I wouldn't want the person who let his feet get like that to try to improve them. I know that his gait hasn't helped but I would have expected corrective trimming to have helped before the op.
 
ester said:
Yes maybe, not sure what cycle he had been on, he just seems to be very good at putting down lots of frog but no horn at the back of his hinds.
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No, absolutely, it may be that trimming wise he was barely really touched and its just what he does.
I think that for a while he just needs more hoof in general to be honest
 
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Sorry yes, I realise I haven't given any other history which isn't helpful! Iwill try to keep this as brief as possible!

May 2015: Bought him as a 7 year old, he was rescued from a field, broken at 5 and then hacked about 3 times a year until he was sold to me so he'd done nothing so spent that summer, winter and following spring just getting to know each other

Summer 2016: a good summer out competing (jumping, showing etc) improving in all work and making a very good all rounder

September 2016: started to have issues in (losing impulsion, dead to the leg, struggling to strike up and maintain canter, tail swishing etc)

October 2016: got the vet to scope and had grade 4 glandular and squamous ulcers, treated and cleared after 4 weeks so overhauled diet and brought him back into work.

Jan 2017: still not right after the ulcers (same symptoms as above) so went for a bone scan. hot spots on hocks, nerve blocked (did not block) x-rayed anyway and found to have mild arthritic changes in both hocks, medicated and sent home. Rehab started and was going great, felt forward, physio was pleased, jumped a clear round and he seemed to be back to normal.

April 2017: him asked to step up to normal work (mainly schooling and lateral work) then had a horrible summer 2017 spending £££s and being fobbed off by vet saying he was just a lazy horse.

September 2017: I had him rescoped and found grade 4 ulcers back again despite good management, vet said management couldn't be good and basically shrugged his shoulders when I suggested pain. Got rid of that vet.

November 2017: got new vet on advise of physio who thought it could be his hocks but when vet saw him move she didn't thinkhocks and suspected either stifle, SI or suspensories, had a work up and a hugely positive block to the suspensories, PSD confirmed by scan and given case history decided surgery was the best option so that was done Jan 2018. Started looking towards the causes for the PSD and decided poor hock conformation was probably part of the cause as well as it not being picked up when it should have been earlier in 2017 and potentially the feet (though she doesn't know what came first). SI pain ruled out as primary cause as SI pain only appeared in September 2017 and had been fine before.

During this time he has been seen by 2 different farriers and a barefoot trimmer. The barefoot trimmer was the last person to see him before his op and he had 3 trims. She didn't seem overly concerned but this was before we had x-rays. He came shod on all 4 and I ditched the back ones about 2 days after I got him on advice from the farrier due to foot quality being good. I wish I had taken some photos when I first got him but from looking back at old ones it looks like actually look they were the same then as they are now and I know I've been looking into the issue for about a year! He has been on varying trim cycles from 6 weeks when shod all the way to 12 weeks barefoot but it averages out about 8-9 weeks when barefoot and when he is trimmed, he never seems to have much taken much off, he never gets the hoof knife thing nor the pincers that are like nail clippers, it is usually just the rasp around the edges to tidy up and I think he has been rolling his toe (don't quote me on that, he either definitely has or definitely hasn't haha!) and that's it.

I am starting to get so confused with it all now, I don't even know what a good hind hoof should look like! I look at his and then others at the yard and there doesn't seem to be much difference. Would it be worth taking some more photos now he is shod or is it pointless?

Honestly thank you so much for taking the time to read and give advice and support, I really do appreciate it, as you can probably tell I am totally losing it over this, I have spent almost £10,000 trying to get him right plus £1000s more I don't even want to think about and just want to do everything I can for him and try and learn as much as I can in the process!
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Has your farrier been working with him all the time you have had him? I wouldn't want the person who let his feet get like that to try to improve them. I know that his gait hasn't helped but I would have expected corrective trimming to have helped before the op.
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The trouble is, with trimming you can only work with what is there, and there is only so much you can do to encourage other bits to grow through trimming, we tried to trim F's heels to get them to grow a bit more by putting the lightest or rockers on them but it made him a bit sore so we sacked that off. I honestly wouldn't be sure that anyone has 'let his feet get like that' his feet have opted to be like that.
 
Ah OK, so generally his back end construction is not the best, and the way he holds and uses himself tends to make it worse.

So main priority is to get him using himself properly through rehab and then very progressive fittening work after that. Personally I would probably still plump for doing that barefoot, purely because you can gauge improvements through changes in hooves, unless his posture was markedly better with the back shoes, because that may give a bit of a head start on the rehab efforts.

Sorry, really didn't want to confuse you any more x
 
ester said:
The trouble is, with trimming you can only work with what is there, and there is only so much you can do to encourage other bits to grow through trimming, we tried to trim F's heels to get them to grow a bit more by putting the lightest or rockers on them but it made him a bit sore so we sacked that off. I honestly wouldn't be sure that anyone has 'let his feet get like that' his feet have opted to be like that.
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This is exactly what the trimmer said in her email. There is only so much she and the farrier can do, the feet are growing that way for a reason! Vet seems to think that reason has been resolved but farrier wants to shoe to provide support whilst he is rehabbing to give him the best chance, logically it makes sense and I probably wouldn't be having this meltdown had I not just spent over £150 last month shoeing and then things to keep the silly things on. I think I need to go on some sort of course about what the ideal hoof should look like as currently I can't even picture what it should look like, does that make sense?
 
DabDab said:
Ah OK, so generally his back end construction is not the best, and the way he holds and uses himself tends to make it worse.

So main priority is to get him using himself properly through rehab and then very progressive fittening work after that. Personally I would probably still plump for doing that barefoot, purely because you can gauge improvements through changes in hooves, unless his posture was markedly better with the back shoes, because that may give a bit of a head start on the rehab efforts.

Sorry, really didn't want to confuse you any more x
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nono it's ok :) I would say his posture has improved with shoes but he was also shod the same day he had physio so could be that making him feel better, or the shoes or a combination of both but I haven't noticed any of his "elephant on a ball" stance recently!

Here is photo of him at his worst in terms of posture, not a great one but you get the idea

Zy6iBIj.jpg
 
emfen1305 said:
nono it's ok :) I would say his posture has improved with shoes but he was also shod the same day he had physio so could be that making him feel better, or the shoes or a combination of both but I haven't noticed any of his "elephant on a ball" stance recently!

Here is photo of him at his worst in terms of posture, not a great one but you get the idea

Zy6iBIj.jpg
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I would say, if you just showed me the photo without any history, that he is standing as if to relieve pain. As I'm not sure where in the history this photo was taken, you might already know that he was. As he has not been shod behind for most of the time that you have had him, I take ester's point about his feet growing that way, rather than having been trimmed that way but I would expect my farrier to have been able to identify the problem from the hoof growth, long ago and influence the growth pattern by careful trimming, rather than just letting him 'do his own thing'. I don't understand how shoes are meant to encourage the heel growth.
 
Ooo, interesting - not the type of horse I was expecting from the hoof pics!

So I would guess that he crosses his back legs laterally when moving on any kind of turn. So as he steps his inside back leg forwards on a turn it reaches under him almost to track that the outside legs are on. Which then overloads that hip and the force is taken excessively through the very back edge of his hoof. And that would account for the slightly rampant frogs on his back feet.

If my mass of assumptions is close then a bit of work to get him to use his lateral abdominal muscles, lift through the shoulder and move straight when on the curve you should be able to improve him
 
The photo was taken April 2017 when he started showing signs of being uncomfortable again, I took it as a record to prove to my vet that i wasn't going bonkers!

From what I remember, he has always made an effort to keep the toes back as much as he could because I remember asking it about it but if I am honest I hadn't really been speaking to the farrier about my issues (I assumed they were coming from elsewhere) and nobody else had every brought his feet up as being the potential problem so maybe he was going down the "if it aint broke don't fix it" thought path, doing as much as he could trimming wise and nothing more because he assumed he had been OK - that's just my thinking, I do think my farrier is a good farrier and has always been an advocate for Toby going barefoot so when he says he needs shoes, I feel inclined to go along with him otherwise I'm sure he would have whipped them off as I don't think he likes having to keep coming back either (he doesn't charge me)
 
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