Back to barefoot - long post, help desperately needed!

DabDab said:
Ooo, interesting - not the type of horse I was expecting from the hoof pics!

So I would guess that he crosses his back legs laterally when moving on any kind of turn. So as he steps his inside back leg forwards on a turn it reaches under him almost to track that the outside legs are on. Which then overloads that hip and the force is taken excessively through the very back edge of his hoof. And that would account for the slightly rampant frogs on his back feet.

If my mass of assumptions is close then a bit of work to get him to use his lateral abdominal muscles, lift through the shoulder and move straight when on the curve you should be able to improve him
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What were you expecting out of interest? We don't actually know what he is haha, some days he looks like a cob tank and other days he looks like a spindly weedy thing!

I assume you mean a circle or a change of rein as opposed to a tight circle? I am not sure actually, I will have to have a look and take some videos at the weekend. At his worst he was going around on the left rein on two different tracks, his hind legs were turned to the inside and head to the outside, presumably because his right hind was worse and he struggled with it on the outside. Are the frogs on his hind feet not good? Sorry I told you the feet baffle me!

Our current rehab programme is walking out on straight lines and encouraging him to work over his back and use his stomach muscles to help strenghtne his back. I posted about struggling to get him to do this on the long lines but seem to have had some success with some belly lefts and using the equiami off the head collar over the last couple of days and then the physio is back out next Friday.
 
Oh it was only the hair really - I was expecting something more ponyish for some reason, like a sort of native x tb :D

Yes, I did connect you to that post - you're update seemed quite positive, so fingers crossed. Everything should become easier once you have got him more in the habit of using himself better - the first bit can be really tough.

No, I wouldn't say his frogs are bad, they are just almost over developed like they're compensating for a strange force distribution through the foot. Really you need all the hoof to be doing it's fair share of the work, because hoof structures do funny things when not made use of and gradually all the associated structures can shift into funky angles. IYSWIM
 
ester said:
The trouble is, with trimming you can only work with what is there, and there is only so much you can do to encourage other bits to grow through trimming, we tried to trim F's heels to get them to grow a bit more by putting the lightest or rockers on them but it made him a bit sore so we sacked that off. I honestly wouldn't be sure that anyone has 'let his feet get like that' his feet have opted to be like that.
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I have seen the feet in person and I would agree with this. Nobody has 'let them get like that', he is compensating for his issues. Also, in the flesh, two months ago, they did not look particularly exceptional in any way. He is one of the rare horses who I would have shod in hind wedges if he were mine, to see what effect they had.
 
Just to show what I mean about his frogs kind of taking over at the heel, this is a pic of my horse's right hind as a comparison:

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Sorry his feet were a bit grubby :o
 
Ah I see what you mean - are Toby's taking over because his heel is too low? I am going to try and get some more photos at the weekend now he has the shoes on for a comparison, I suppose they will look different with shoes anyway due to him not really using having to use his foot in the same way.
 
Sorry, have only just seen your reply!

Um, personally no I don't think so. I think that the low heel and exaggerated frog are symptoms of the same thing. The biomechanics of the way he moves are causing his feet to develop like that - they're just responding to the cyclical force distribution that is going through them.
 
DabDab said:
Um, well don't really know all his history and have only looked at the linked hoof pics so not sure of conformation overall, but just for me personally (in the sense of 'if he were mine'), I would be of the opinion from those hoof pics that he needs to not be trimmed for a while.
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Absolutely agree. Whilst his feet look 'good', they are trimmed and tweaked to within an inch of their lives! (You cannot trim a good hoof - you can only grow one). They need to be left well alone for a long time, so that they can start to develop in a way that suits the horse and not the way convention dictates. You need to read rockleys website and blog until your eyes go square! Ignore your vet and farrier - I haven't met any who are on board with barefoot or support it and most talk total guff about it.

Get the shoes off. Get him on a good solid barefoot diet and supplement. Get hoof boots. Get him comfortable and get him moving and watch the magic begin. You might have moments where you feel unsure and worry if you've done the right thing. You may face criticism (ignore it all). He may have setbacks. His feet might look awful with cracks and chips but just don't look! Diet and exercise will do wonders over time.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
Absolutely agree. Whilst his feet look 'good', they are trimmed and tweaked to within an inch of their lives! (You cannot trim a good hoof - you can only grow one). They need to be left well alone for a long time, so that they can start to develop in a way that suits the horse and not the way convention dictates. You need to read rockleys website and blog until your eyes go square! Ignore your vet and farrier - I haven't met any who are on board with barefoot or support it and most talk total guff about it.

Get the shoes off. Get him on a good solid barefoot diet and supplement. Get hoof boots. Get him comfortable and get him moving and watch the magic begin. You might have moments where you feel unsure and worry if you've done the right thing. You may face criticism (ignore it all). He may have setbacks. His feet might look awful with cracks and chips but just don't look! Diet and exercise will do wonders over time.
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Thanks for your reply, I am hoping to get a second opinion this week from a different farrier, I want to try and have a professional on board with me if I can, I am not experienced enough with feet to feel comfortable to do this alone. My preference would be to get the shoes off and then get boots for the fronts for work if I need to, he is not at all footy on the foot with the lost shoe at the moment and it's quite a stony track to our field.

Just out of curiosity, if the xrays are showing long toes on all 4 feet yet they look like they have been trimmed too much, what could be going on? If behind is to do with the heels, what could be going on in front?
 
Don't know to be honest. It's been years since I studied X-rays. I look at the horse in front of me and the functionality of the feet. Have you studied whether he is landing heel first? This is the holy grail. A functional foot with no issues and a sound, comfortable horse will always land heel first. You need you and another person. One leads him along a flat even path in walk. The other gets right down on the ground and videos his foot fall. You can then slow your video down and see how he's landing.

Please be aware that there are virtually no farriers who advocate barefoot. Why would they? It loses them money. Even if they do agree to trim, they start paring the sole and frog, which should be left well alone and rasping hoof walls. I've heard some of the most respected farriers in the country talk utter nonsense about feet.

Have you read anything on rockley?
 
Sam_J said:
*Some* farriers advocate barefoot :-)
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Mine certainly does, in most cases it does not lose them money to do a trim rather than shoe provided there are more than 1 horse to do at a yard, they can do 4 in an hour without rushing which is going to bring in approx an extra £20-40 per hour over the cost of a normal set.

I suggested to my farrier a while ago that as he winds down to retirement it would be a good halfway house, similar income per hour, less outgoings on equipment and could also downgrade vehicle, easier on the back just a few of the benefits, he is more than happy to trim working horses but most of his clients still think riding on roads means shoes are essential and are not going to change their management/ riding/ expectations to allow their horses to go barefoot.
I don't think farriers are to blame for providing a service to the equine industry, some may be less good than others but horses will continue to be shod even if many don't need it.

None of this is of help to the OP who I think is between a rock and a hard place, bare was not working for whatever reason, the horse has had recent surgery, has poor hind limb confo and changes in the hocks all of which must be considered with ongoing care, it is not as simple as take off the shoes and read up on Rockley, even they don't fix every horse, it may be that he does need lateral extensions for a while to help correct how he uses himself and a gradual return to bare once he is stronger but whatever the OP decides she needs support from experienced people with open minds, a couple of people have been very helpful, not constantly being told barefoot is the only option with nothing other than disparaging remarks about farriers.
 
As the only contributor who has actually seen this horse and his feet, I completely agree with the above post from BP

Em, you need to find an expert you trust and stick with their advice and their's alone. I don't think the forum is helping you at this point, sorry.
 
I have actually filmed him since surgery and he does land heel first so hopefully a good start.

I agree with both BP and of course ycbm, I have taken advice from another thread and have been in touch with Sam so we will see what happens next! We've had a tough couple of years and seem to have been unlucky from the start with his issues with bad advice from vets, physios, hospitals, farriers but its all part of the package of being a first time owner. I'm hoping this year will finally be the year to get him right!
 
Sam_J said:
*Some* farriers advocate barefoot :-)
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Indeed and in over 40 yrs of keeping horses, I have never had a farrier who trimmed soles. The only time I remember a frog being trimmed was when the Draft horse was lame because her frog had a sliver hanging off, which should have worn off but didn't, and farrier removed it for her, she (and I) was very relieved !
 
ycbm said:
As the only contributor who has actually seen this horse and his feet, I completely agree with the above post from BP

Em, you need to find an expert you trust and stick with their advice and their's alone. I don't think the forum is helping you at this point, sorry.
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The vast majority of posts on this thread have said exactly the same thing.
 
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