Backing 3/4yr olds

Ambers Echo said:
Yay I can join this thread too now. My new 3 year old has been introduced elsewhere on the forum already, but this will be a good place to keep track of progress. I read this thread years ago, following the original generation, then forgot about it. But I have read back so 'know' the current crop of babies starting Big School. Looking forward to following everyone's progress

I'm another working with Joe Midgley with a 'skills to have before I get on' list. And on the same yard as Fibones - so we probably have a similar list! (Not sure she knows that I am on here! I don't really talk ahbout HHO in real life). And also focusing on the quality of the work at each step.

She was home-bred and I bought her direct from the breeder. Before I got her she had been led to and from the field, had her feet done, been brushed and fussed, but had no formal training at all. But was mannerly and unafraid. Perfect!

She arrived last Thursday. She was given a day on the field and was introduced to the tools on Day 2, along with lateral and vertical flexions, plus leading without moving ahead or pkanting, which she was not great at.

Step was introducing her to the kit, and ensuring she was happy with being touched all over by me, and then by ropes and the flag. She was unsure at first but soon relaxed so that was just 10-15 minutes 'work' then back to the field.

Session 1 Video


Since then she has had the farrier and dentist and was good as gold for both. No wolf teeth - hurrah. And we have done 3 more groundwork sessions. At first she worked out what was being asked quite quickly but quality was not there- it was tense, rushed, braced and movements were a bit erratic.

She can also be very distractible - understandably as she was home-bred and has never been anywhere new before. New horses, new home, new owner. But she comes back to me, and even looks to me for comfort sometimes. Her go to when worried is to keep moving her feet, so doing things with her is easier than 'parking' her. So every session has involved a fair amount of moving her around a) to help her feel safer, b) to get her attention on me, mixed with lots of 'parking' to teach her that a lot of times she does not need to DO anything. She can just chill, have a fuss, and wait for further instructions.

Vertical flexion and back up is often braced. She has a tendency to fix her jaw and push her nose into pressure, then tosses her head and tries all manner of evasions before finally softening to it. So that is a habit we need to undo.

When she is calm and listening she actually does all the 'things' on my list that I want her to do reasonably nicely. Calm, controlled steps, soft and loose back up, no bracing. Even some synchronicity as she steps across as I step. Which is surprising as she very definitely has not done any of this stuff. However, when she is a bit worried or distracted it all evaporates. So I need it much more consistent before we move on.

She's an absoute sweetheart.
Click to expand...
Hi. Fun to share this journey with youngsters!
 
Definitely not just you @Hackback !! I’ve invited my neighbour over for a training session on Friday. I love having them at home but it does mean it’s hard to consistently work them around others.

I did a fair bit of walking in hand with her, both in company and alone before I started riding her. Doubt we got anywhere near 100 miles though! I’m much more confident in hand so it works for me.
 
Have focused on leading last couple of sessions. My aim is for her to follow my feet - as opposed to the flag or pressure on the headcollar. And so to go when I go, match my pace, stop when I stop, and back up when I backup. Also to follow if I turn away from her without the leadrope ever getting tight, and to yield if I turn into her, always keeping a gap between herself and me.

She was pretty willing today - started from the right as I have been trying to do more on the right as she is quite left-sided. And she does ok, I think. When I switch to the left she gets stuck when I step into her wanting her to yield. So you see me having to escalate the pressure till I get a sideways step. After that she understood, and was consistently yielding from the left as well as the right. She stayed with me enough to stop the leap rope ever tightening when I was on the right, and was a bit more sticky when I was on the left. I think she could be more with me moving forward. She hangs behind a bit. I don't know if that's because she tended to be led in with others and is used to being behind the human? But this is shaping up nicely compared to how she led when she arrived, which was pretty much just following other horses or responsong to pressure on the leadrope.

Clip if anyone is interested. Yes she's filthy. I'm heading back this afternoon for a nice groom!

 
Last edited:
Anyone else’s 4 year olds the devil at the minute?
Think Nutmeg is rather sensitive to the cold and everything is fun and games at the minute!
 
Ahrena said:
Anyone else’s 4 year olds the devil at the minute?
Think Nutmeg is rather sensitive to the cold and everything is fun and games at the minute!
Click to expand...
I was going to say mine has been very good lately (older mare is a different story!) but I’m taking her XC tomorrow with a slightly fractured hand so I won’t jinx it yet…
 
We’ve had to move the 4yo to a yard with an arena as she was doing her nut without adequate canter time. Now much calmer, but she still tends to get a little feisty after a day off and this is causing a bit merry go round. Son can’t yet hold her when she argues in a snaffle (schooling is in progress but she’s 13hh of NFxArab so speedy and strong!). Then she tosses her head and moves her jaw to try to avoid doing as requested in the loose ring stronger bit and sometimes rubs the corners of her mouth. He was so calm today, rode really nicely and ignored her baby pony attitude, but she was twisting her head at times and has now done it again. Riding her out in our flower hackamore is not the best. Ideally I need a bitless option for argument day each week, then we won’t have any issues! Or some super fancy bit guards (she has some already, not doing the job 😩).
 
Mine is 4.5yo and I think he's hit the Kevins a bit early... he's not throwing shapes type of naughty but he's definitely got more spark and he's pushing boundaries slightly on the ground.
Thankfully he backs down very quickly once corrected, but defintiely seeing a slight change - perhaps it is the cold and the clip rather than the kevins!
 
I went for a long hack to try and tire Nutmeg out before dressage tomorrow. Every time she spooked, which was a lot, she went bronco, which was fun. Must be something in the air as my friends usual very sensible dales pony was also on one which didn’t help life.

Have to say, between how fresh she is and how she behaved at the clinic last week, I am REALLY looking forward to the warm up tomorrow 😐

She isn’t being naughty per say, just very, very fresh!
 
I’ve been rebacking my new 4yo Yoshi (otherwise known as Spud, cause he’s sweet and looks like a sweet potato with legs). He’d been broncing randomly due to tension, so decided to go back to basics and take things slowly.

He’s been good as gold so far. Going for his first hack tomorrow so that should be interesting 😅
 
Spud is excellent! We call Nutmeg baby barrel (there’s also a fair few choice nicknames for her depending on her mood!) for the same reason.

She was very good schooling with my neighbours horse yesterday so that was something but of course tomorrow it drops by 5 degrees as well.
 
Had a little saddle fitting session on Reggie. He's taking everything in his stride at the moment. Excuse the interesting riding style he kept putting his head down to eat and it was terrifying 🤪

Robin wore his driving harness and did some long reining as you can see from his expression he wasn't impressed. He finds doing stuff at home boring. He just wants to be out and about on adventures.
 

Attachments

  • IMG-20241115-WA0008_compress42.jpg
    IMG-20241115-WA0008_compress42.jpg
    84.6 KB · Views: 42
  • 20241115_143510_compress64.jpg
    20241115_143510_compress64.jpg
    626.6 KB · Views: 42
Well what can I say? Nutmeg entirely redeemed herself and behaved (almost!) impeccably. I actually got to a point where I could actually think about her way of going rather than just survival. Still a few shapes but all relatively tame and she was fairly relaxed about the whole thing. Got some nice scores and a couple of frillies and all in all a very pleasant, educational day out!
 
I was short of time this week due to work being really busy, but I had enough time to pop the halter on and do some groundwork. I really enjoyed going back to basics, so that's what I've done all week.

AJ is really worried about poles (we think as a hang up from when his legs were really sore and he didn't want to touch anything). So I've spent the week working around the poles and asking him to go through gaps between them without rushing and just working calmly in the middle of a big pentagon of poles. He has occasionally gone over one but he still rushes and jumps and I think it's going to be a while before he can step over calmly.

During the summer, at Joe's suggestion, I had a couple of poles laid across the gateway to the field, so he had to cross them twice a day. He never stopped having a little panic and then jumping though.

There is a reason I need to get him stepping over things nicely - horse stiles. His destiny (though he doesn't know it) is to be a hacking/hunting/PR horse so he needs to be able to cope with them.
 
Gosh, mine seems almost feral compared to most here!
I only very sporadically do something with them - has probably averaged once a month this year.

Will probably spend some time Christmas chucking on a saddle and bouncing around on the mounting block and that will do us until the clocks change in March.
 
Musings on lunging.

Joe dislikes lunging as he says it teaches mindlessness/disconnection. Among other problems.

Obviously most people do lunge. So I went on a search for other points of view.

I am reading Ross Jacobs having followed him on Fb for a while.

He (like Joe, and Mark Rashid) are all about getting to a horses mind. Knowing and directing their thoughts.

I was interested to read what Ross says about direct vs drive. He writes:

"The difference between directing and driving a horse in good horsemanship:

Our aim is to direct the horses thoughts to encourage it to move in the way we intend, but it is very common that people will drive a horse rather than direct a horse. Driving tends to create undesirable feelings inside a horse because it involves separating what a horse is doing from what it is thinking.

Directing: When you direct a horse, you are moving it towards a thought.

Driving: When you drive a horse, you’re moving it away from a thought.

Driving is usually associated with the horse's thoughts being focused in one direction while its feet are moving in another. For example, you drive a horse in a round pen by placing pressure behind the horse by swinging a rope, or using a whip in order to get it to move forward away from the pressure. The horse sees the pressure as a bad thing and therefore moves away to avoid it. The horse's focus is on the pressure behind instead of thinking of going towards something".
(From The Essence of Horsemanship).

Joe I think would call directing 'following a feel'. And he always asks horses to move off a feel, not a drive. Only driving as a correction to regain the horses focus.

I am sure people can lunge differently so it is not mindless movement away from pressure behind, but lungeing as I learned it during my Stage 2/3BHS training and exams did feel very much like that and did not involve mental connection with the horse.

So that’s a long winded way of saying

a) I really like Ross Jacobs and think he is very similar in approach to Joe M/Mark R.
And
b) I’m not currently planning to lunge Myka unless I come across compelling reasons why I should.

Would be very curious about other perspectives though. It is so common that I’m sure it must have other positive benefits.

Just some musings on a very snowy day/snowed in day!
 
I’m not keen on lunging as a rule. Perhaps I’m just not very good at it but I find it a bit pointless, very boring and can’t imagine it’s much good for their joints. I can’t say I’ve ever considered it in the depths as above.

I do it with my older horses once in a blue moon if I’m short on time and/or really don’t want to ride. I do think it is a life skill and horses need to be able to lunge; for vet work ups, to get the tickle out their toes if necessary and also whilst I don’t like lunging, if I were ever to sell, a future owner might and therefore I feel it’s part of my responsibility for the horse I’m producing to be able to do it.

Incidentally, I lunged Nutmeg for the first time yesterday. She’s not been worked all week due to the snow and the school still had a fair covering of snow but wasn’t frozen. I felt it wouldn’t be prudent to get on her in the freezing cold after a week off as well as expecting her to work in snow for the first time. She was actually very nonplussed about it all. So I’ve ticked that box now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tda
It’s very useful to teach a horse to lunge safely and correctly simply for vet checks. You don’t need to lunge regularly as part of working a horse, but IMHO lunging is still a life skill which all horses should be taught.

How often on here do we hear about people worrying whether their horse will behave on the lunge at horsepital for a lameness workup?
 
Tiddlypom said:
It’s very useful to teach a horse to lunge safely and correctly simply for vet checks. You don’t need to lunge regularly as part of working a horse, but IMHO lunging is still a life skill which all horses should be taught.

How often on here do we hear about people worrying whether their horse will behave on the lunge at horsepital for a lameness workup?
Click to expand...

Personally I agree.

It’s also useful to aid young horses find their balance without a rider on board, and to see if any issues you might be experiencing under saddle are replicated on the lunge - it can rule in/out the saddle/rider being an issue.

You don’t necessarily need to rely on lunging as part of your overall program if you feel strongly about it (all mine get lunged mind), but I think it should at least be taught as a potential skill needed.
 
I've used lunging a lot and quite like it. But I'm fairly certain I would 100% fail a BHS exam in lunging.

I find it really useful for building strength and balance. I prefer to lunge in an arena and won't just do a circle, I'll do squares, small circles then go straight along the edge etc. Use raise trot poles for core strength etc

I teach all my horses to go by voice (to set the pace, and gears - slower and faster walk & trot) and body for the direction so square on to them = straighter line, turn my shoulder step towards quartets = tighter turn around me, so the horse is always having to think about what I'm doing and asking not just switch off.

Mindless drilling round on a circle I do think is pointless.
 
I don't lunge if I can help it - the circular walking/turning motion pops my hips out. However, I put up with the pain to teach my youngsters to lunge - either post or pre backing depending on how tame they are. For vet reasons, future proofing in case of needing to sell reasons, that sort of thing. Sometimes it's also useful for them when learning to jump. I tend to do that ridden following another pony and most are fine with that, but the odd one has struggled more and needed to figure it out without a rider.

If tame:
- Before backing as part of the prep work. Helps them get used to long loose ropes before long-reining. Also, if you do want to long rein you have the option to drop one rein and basically bring them round on the lunge if they spook badly. Those beginning steps where they spook a bit, complain a bit and try to wrap themselves up in the rope are much easier if they have a basic idea of how to lunge off one rope. Learning to go forwards calmly from a whip is also handy before long reining.
- It's literally only enough sessions that they can walk, trot, canter to voice command and then I don't lunge them again. Ever if they never need it!

If feral:
- After backing once they are tame enough to cope with long ropes, whips etc. I don't long rein the very feral ones either, they take to being led off another pony better and I cannot see a world in which I would want to drive a pony away from me that I've just spent a couple of months teaching to trust and be catchable!
 
Last edited:
All horses should be taught and know how to lunge politely as a life skill.
For vets, physio visits etc. and also if you ever sell them, it isn't fair to the horse if they don't have a skill 90% of horse people see as quite basic.

It's really no effort and no time to teach them- my 3yros can both lunge in walk and trot.
The little one learnt in about a minute 🙄
The big one took 2 sessions- 1st session was about 10 mins, next day was 3 mins. Done!

My physio likes to see every horse on the lunge every time she comes. Literally a minute each way.

For youngsters, I find it useful for them to have a spin each way in trot, with the saddle on and stirrups down, before I first get on.
You need them moving at trot or canter to get the tack jangling and bouncing a bit so it isn't a surprise later when a stirrup or your leg bounces off them.
I wouldn't like to do that in hand, so not sure how else you would do it?
Or would you skip that step altogether?
 
Last edited:
millitiger said:
For youngsters, I find it useful for them to have a spin each way in trot, with the saddle on and stirrups down, before I first get on.
You need them moving at trot or canter to get the tack jangling and bouncing a bit so it isn't a surprise later when a stirrup or your leg bounces off them.
I wouldn't like to do that in hand, so not sure how else you would do it?
Or would you skip that step altogether?
Click to expand...

We do a lot of work on moving out on a circle around me. But I am not driving her. I am using body positioning and language, energy and intent. And wanting her to synchronise with my feet. So I think I am directing her, not driving her. I know you use both in lungeing but for the lungeing I was taught it was mostly drive. Plus a bit of voice. And a tiny bit of body language/intent/energy - which was never explictiy taught but I just included. In fact I kept being told off for moving too much. I was meant to be stationary in the centre of the circle with the line and whip then creating the triangle. I was not expected to be actively directing the horse.

Myka circles both ways in walk and trot quite happily so I think the lunging for the vet is covered anyway. And I have done that all that in tack too so she gets used to the feel of a saddle moving arooud as she trots, circles & turns.

I guess to all intents and purposes I DO lunge her - I just dont lunge BHS style - ie the way I was taught and assessed. So it seems easier to use a different word (groundwork) as lungeing for me means standing still in the middle and driving the horse from behind. I don't think it's a subtle difference either. I personally feel directing in groundwork vs driving in lungeing are a long way apart. And so reading what Ross Jacobs said about that was interesting.
 
Last edited:
Ah, if you had asked if people teach their horses to lunge in the rigid BHS style, with the trainer pivoting in the centre of the circle driving the horse, then you might have got different answers 🙂.

No, I despise the BHS way, too.

If she calmly circles you on a lunge line at a pace of your choice and keeping her distance, then that counts as lunging to me.
 
Last edited:
I like to do two-line lunging. Only once a week at the most. I don't have an arena but use the flat bit of my field. We go all round the field in different shapes and changing directions, also circles, and changing up and down paces. Sort of a cross between lunging and long-reining. My horse is a bit of a t**t at a lot of things, but I'm proud of how good and gentlemanly he is at this activity. I think it is an excellent way of getting him to concentrate on me and what I'm asking for but without me on board. I also enjoy watching his reactions to what he is being asked to do. He is quite a comical character and very good at giving me the "side-eye", which I can't see when onboard. I find it quite bonding - and it gives me some exercise as well.
 
Ambers Echo said:
We do a lot of work on moving out on a circle around me. But I am not driving her. I am using body positioning and language, energy and intent. And wanting her to synchronise with my feet. So I think I am directing her, not driving her. I know you use both in lungeing but for the lungeing I was taught it was mostly drive. Plus a bit of voice. And a tiny bit of body language/intent/energy - which was never explictiy taught but I just included. In fact I kept being told off for moving too much. I was meant to be stationary in the centre of the circle with the line and whip then creating the triangle. I was not expected to be actively directing the horse.

Myka circles both ways in walk and trot quite happily so I think the lunging for the vet is covered anyway. And I have done that all that in tack too so she gets used to the feel of a saddle moving arooud as she trots, circles & turns.

I guess to all intents and purposes I DO lunge her - I just dont lunge BHS style - ie the way I was taught and assessed. So it seems easier to use a different word (groundwork) as lungeing for me means standing still in the middle and driving the horse from behind. I don't think it's a subtle difference either. I personally feel directing in groundwork vs driving in lungeing are a long way apart. And so reading what Ross Jacobs said about that was interesting.
Click to expand...
That driving from behind type lunging is where you end up with horses doing their best motorbike impression to try and keep their balance. I suspect its also why so many of the Equine studies students get taught that various lunging aids are Good Things because they then need them to counter the motorbike. Unless the horse has done a lot of work on learning how to balance without being a banana then they have no choice but to motorbike when they are being driven round a 15/20m circle.
 
I am another Joe student and wasn't a fan of lunging anyway since a vet told me not to lunge my older horse as it was bad for his joints.

However my physio recently told me off (she speaks her mind and I like her for it) for not teaching AJ to lunge and long rein as she said it's not the time to be teaching them when they need rehab.

I too think I could get away with 'lunging' as AJ can work in circles round me, although I think he might get confused and upset if someone tried enforcing the BHS style on him.

As for long reining - not a clue. I think I should probably look at teaching him that just so he has it as a life skill
 
Ambers Echo said:
We do a lot of work on moving out on a circle around me. But I am not driving her. I am using body positioning and language, energy and intent. And wanting her to synchronise with my feet. So I think I am directing her, not driving her. I know you use both in lungeing but for the lungeing I was taught it was mostly drive. Plus a bit of voice. And a tiny bit of body language/intent/energy - which was never explictiy taught but I just included. In fact I kept being told off for moving too much. I was meant to be stationary in the centre of the circle with the line and whip then creating the triangle. I was not expected to be actively directing the horse.

Myka circles both ways in walk and trot quite happily so I think the lunging for the vet is covered anyway. And I have done that all that in tack too so she gets used to the feel of a saddle moving arooud as she trots, circles & turns.

I guess to all intents and purposes I DO lunge her - I just dont lunge BHS style - ie the way I was taught and assessed. So it seems easier to use a different word (groundwork) as lungeing for me means standing still in the middle and driving the horse from behind. I don't think it's a subtle difference either. I personally feel directing in groundwork vs driving in lungeing are a long way apart. And so reading what Ross Jacobs said about that was interesting.
Click to expand...
The downside to this:

My horses are taught, by me, to lunge in the way you describe, following a feel. They’re good at it, though I hardly do it these days because it’s tedious. Trouble is, it’s hard for other people to lunge them because they’re so sensitive to your body position and most people are oblivious, but if the feel isn’t there and the human’s body language is wrong, they just turn to face you. Whoops.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top