Backing 3/4yr olds

Thanks for the comments @Ambers Echo on the use of a teddy/dummy complete agree that it could be used the wrong way to "flood" him to a point of learned helplessnes that might work in the short term but would probably backfire long term in trust etc. I think a lot of his past handling has involved being shoved in a corner/against a wall and forced to accept whatever a humam wants to do to him, which is why his first reaction to anything new, a human does, is to go straight to 10 and run.

His big trigger with getting on appears to be at the point of going to sit up /swing a leg over him, which I can't ease him into without risking myself again.

Ive never used a dummy before but can definitely see the potential because we were scratching our heads about how to ease him into it.

We'd spent 6+ weeks leaning on and over till he no longer tensed/flicked an ear and was generally chilled with all that, including moving a few steps with my weight on him, and we're still rebuilding that trust from 2 weeks ago.

We'll introduce "Crash" (can't call him bear that's reserved for another long standing memmber of the family 😅 ) gradually as we have with everything else.

Ive broken in quite a few horses and he is by far the most distrusting of humans doing new things, even compared to semi-feral 3yr olds pulled in off the station, which is sad in a way.
 
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I used one with a little mare that had been "cowboy broke" when I was working in Oz many years ago. I know her first experience wasn't a good one because I was told all about it (macho men & beer....) but her default behaviour to escape the situation was to crash onto her side.

I'd done a huge amount of leaning over etc etc but I really didnt want to be trying an emergency exit if she took the route she had before. I don't think its flooding to put something up there so the horse gets used to having that figure in their eyeline moving around. It wasn't like I tied on my scarecrow thing and then cracked the whip to get her galloping round in terror.

I was up on her not long after, but then other travel plans took over so no doubt the methods of the soft English girl were quickly dispersed with!

(You learn as much from the methods you know you'll never follow as the stuff you try to absorb IMO. I could never sit the rodeos from getting on unbroken horses Monty Roberts style [quasi] but I also knew i never wanted to!!)
 
I had a horse that was similar and looking back, a dummy might've been useful at the time, but we worked our way through it.

He was set off by a leg swinging over and/or when he had to move with the weight on him. Thankfully (I guess?) he just ran sideways and forwards without any bucking or really getting airborne.

It just took a lot of repetition, reassurance, and me clinging to the saddle like a monkey.

I'd basically lean over him, and someone at his head would ask him to walk off and I just stayed on him. It was easy to just slide off if needed, and no doubt this was all probably incredibly dangerous, but when he finally was still for a moment, I slid/hopped down, and praised/let things be relaxed.

For whatever reason(s) as soon as he could walk calmly for quite a bit with someone leaned over him, he easily accepted me sitting upright and also having me officially swing over. This came after we did a few other things too though.

I did stand on the mounting block and the ground just swinging things over him (an empty bottle on a string, for example). I also took a large inflatable exercise ball and rolled it around him, threw it over his back, rolled it underneath him at some point, bounced it around, and even lightly bounced it off him or rolled it along and off his back. Again, not all safe, but proved to be helpful. I had to have eyes on the back or my head while doing it all. So you do need to be incredibly aware.

I did sort of flood him at one point, because sometimes there does come a point where they need to get over it. Even if it becomes a learned helplessness sort of thing. I don't believe that flooding a horse once will create that as a permanent state. If only training by flooding, then yes.

A friend and I took a noisy piece of haylage wrapper that would make noise and flop about and somehow attached it (I think?) to his roller. He damn near shat his pants every time it moved or made noise, but he soon accepted it. Whenever he showed signs of acceptance he was rewarded. He eventually realized that the thing was ok, he wasn't going to die or get hurt by it, and maybe he had just given up, but is that always a terrible thing? I think it can have its place.

I want a horse that thinks, feels, gives input, and also chooses the right thing because they want to, but I also need the horse to know that sometimes, they just need to accept things, and it'll be ok.

I can't say that he was traumatized or resigned to his existence as a ridden horse, because he was still quite interactive and willing. He was so solid to mount, dismount, and play around on when all was said and done.

It was tough, I had to get creative, and it could've backfired spectacularly (like a lot of training methods, really) if not done just right or if too much error occurred.

I did have a willing friend to help, and also my riding instructor at times, because sometimes I just needed another body. My OH stepped in a few times too, so having another skilled horsemen in on it can be necessary.

Meanwhile my current youngster...I could basically do it all solo and getting on him was a non event. I'd been lightly prepping him for about a year though, but he was never really
phased by me standing over him, leaning, and whatever else. So that was just him.

So you just adapt to the horse, and outsource if you have to. I said to myself that if I wavered at any point, I'd call in a pro. You can't afford to waiver during this process with most (or all, maybe) horses.

Edit: not sure if I should admit to some of these things, and I probably sound like some backyard redneck 🤣
 
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After almost being ejected last week (someone walked through a doorway 🙄), I was able to sneak in a ride today before the temps creep up even further. The humidity is insane here too! I was really on him for being infront of my leg and I kept him busy, busy, busy. That's honestly the only way to ride him. Sometimes I want to take a break, but I have to remember that his brain doesn't stop! I do allow short breaks if he's in the right mindset.

He doesn't do any silly sh*t when I ride him like that, and he's always in a relaxed yet chipper little mood after. He doesn't really pull sh*t in our lessons because we're actively working. When he's in the right mindset he's not as reactive. Someone wakes by a doorway and went by again later with a wheelbarrow. Someone else drove by a doorway with an all terrain vehicle. Someone did chores at there stable. No reaction.

The minute he puts both ears forward or puts attention on something, I have to redirect. I try to be proactive too. I just have to be ahead of his brain! I have to keep the connection.

It makes sense given the type of horse he is. He is very smart, which is great, but it means that I can't be a slouch 😂...I kind of can on trails though.
 
Really interesting discussion about the dummy! I’ve never used one but also been lucky to never of had cause to.

We’ve had a couple of quiet weeks doing nothing with the youngsters as our dog whelped puppies and it’s been all hands on deck there. Picked Rambo back up again and did a little long reining. We did a few loops with the leader then ditched her and flew solo and he was fab, if a little keen.

Need to get back on my diet if I ever want to sit on him, it all fell apart when the puppies were born as he’s refusing to inch above 14.2.

Pesto has done nothing. He gave himself a fat leg two weeks ago which has gone down but has left almost a splint but on his pastern bone? It’s a bit odd. He’s sound and it doesn’t appear sore so I’m just letting it settle.
 
@CanteringCarrot your post about keeping your horse mentally engaged triggered a vague memory of a discussion I had about that re Amber. I write about it here on a thread about the Buck Brannaman clinic where he says riders should keep fully focused and mentally engaged with their horses. I can't get the hang of multi uotes but the response below Dabdab's comment is mine from back then. I do still want my horse to just get on with it at times. I checked out mentally when hacking Lottie all the time, and she never freaked out. But maybe some horses don't cope so well with being 'abandoned'.


DabDab said:
a great many riders don't want to 100% concentrate on the horse at all times while riding - they want to bimble around the countryside enjoying the view and like their horses to be fairly self sufficient.
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I do love a good debate! This is something I struggle with a bit. Buck was very clear that he NEVER 'abandons' the horse, he NEVER just bimbles. Every movement the horse makes on the ground or under saddle has to be 'with quality' and with focus and care and attention. Guy Robertson (a UK based Buck student/trainer) says similar. He uses the phrase 'being particular'. When the horse is in a field being a horse he can do what he wants. When he is haltered he is 'at work' and needs to be on it. His job might be to stand still while you fix fence, or stand still while you sit on him and listen to a trainer. So he should not pull to grass, or rub his head on you or fidget, or stamp his feet or itch his nose on his leg. Instead he should be relaxed and attentive, waiting for the next instruction.

I remember at the time thinking this is all a bit too much like hard work. It's a HOBBY and I really do sometimes just want to go on a hack with my friends and have a chat and let the horse get on with it with me having stay concentrated and focused. On the other hand I don't want the horse to spook or spin or tank off and Buck says the 2 things go hand in hand. If you let you horse get on with it then that's fine - he will happily take over the decision making but he will know he is 'alone' so if something goes wrong he will take whatever action he deems appropriate which is unlikely to be a response you want. I had more or less decided to ignore this part of the method when I was hacking round the farm ride at Somerford. On the buckle gossiping. A pheasant flew out, Amber spun and I did not even know anything had happened before landing flat on my back. She has never spun before even with similar levels of triggering and I now believe that she would have been less reactive if she believed I was mentally engaged with her.
 
I think it very much depends on what you want out of riding and the relationship you want with your horse. I’d hate to feel that I was micromanaging every step. If I’m schooling, I do concentrate and make sure I’m present’. . If I don’t one of mine will completely disengage. However, if hacking, I want to be able to bimble. It’s supposed to be relaxing downtime for both of us and I don’t want rather of us to be in ‘work’ mode.
 
Ambers Echo said:
@CanteringCarrot your post about keeping your horse mentally engaged triggered a vague memory of a discussion I had about that re Amber. I write about it here on a thread about the Buck Brannaman clinic where he says riders should keep fully focused and mentally engaged with their horses. I can't get the hang of multi uotes but the response below Dabdab's comment is mine from back then. I do still want my horse to just get on with it at times. I checked out mentally when hacking Lottie all the time, and she never freaked out. But maybe some horses don't cope so well with being 'abandoned'.




I do love a good debate! This is something I struggle with a bit. Buck was very clear that he NEVER 'abandons' the horse, he NEVER just bimbles. Every movement the horse makes on the ground or under saddle has to be 'with quality' and with focus and care and attention. Guy Robertson (a UK based Buck student/trainer) says similar. He uses the phrase 'being particular'. When the horse is in a field being a horse he can do what he wants. When he is haltered he is 'at work' and needs to be on it. His job might be to stand still while you fix fence, or stand still while you sit on him and listen to a trainer. So he should not pull to grass, or rub his head on you or fidget, or stamp his feet or itch his nose on his leg. Instead he should be relaxed and attentive, waiting for the next instruction.

I remember at the time thinking this is all a bit too much like hard work. It's a HOBBY and I really do sometimes just want to go on a hack with my friends and have a chat and let the horse get on with it with me having stay concentrated and focused. On the other hand I don't want the horse to spook or spin or tank off and Buck says the 2 things go hand in hand. If you let you horse get on with it then that's fine - he will happily take over the decision making but he will know he is 'alone' so if something goes wrong he will take whatever action he deems appropriate which is unlikely to be a response you want. I had more or less decided to ignore this part of the method when I was hacking round the farm ride at Somerford. On the buckle gossiping. A pheasant flew out, Amber spun and I did not even know anything had happened before landing flat on my back. She has never spun before even with similar levels of triggering and I now believe that she would have been less reactive if she believed I was mentally engaged with her.
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On the other hand, if CC’s horse were a dog, say a spaniel type, I’d tell her that she needs to be training her dog to learn to switch off under saddle. Not in the sense that he completely switches off from the riders’ aids, but in the sense that he learns that he doesn’t always need to keep an eye out or wait for something to do. He can just ‘be’ in the moment with his rider.

Obviously this is a long process - I’m not saying CC should right now start plodding around on a long rein and letting him spook left right and centre.

But, in the long term, it’s just not beneficial for an animal’s mental health to always be on the go, on the look out, trying to find something to do, etc.

The idea that a horse should spend all their work time ready for instruction makes me a bit sick, if I’m honest. They need downtime within ridden time, as well as in the field. And, quite frankly, I think the idea that a horse should not even itch its nose, a basic bodily requirement, because a rider is on its back, is bordering on cruel.

Plus what a double standard - expect the horse to be completely still as you talk to your trainer but how many people can stand completely still for 5 minutes straight?
 
My horse wasn't very reactive. I just used the bear as a thing to do, to get her used to a thing being on her back and draped around her sides. At first, it rode bareback, not tied on. I only tied it on so we could move around with it. He's not a great rider, so wasn't going to stay on himself. Like maya says, it's lighter than a human rider, and less annoying. I did it for all the reasons maya gave, so no need to repeat all that. :)

Buck is an intense guy, from what I've read and heard. Very, very intense. The kind of guy who can keep himself concentrating and focused 99% of the time and who can train a full-up bridle horse. If you are scatty and ADHD and your brain is away with it most of the time, then your horse needs to be able to get on with it safely. I try to buy/train horses who can. Me being an idiot is inevitable. I don't think I could ever train like Buck. I don't have the attention span.

Would Amber have spooked at the pheasant had AE been focused on her and not on chatting with her mate? Hard to prove a negative. Sometimes, horses just have a spook that day.

Then again, I wonder if there is a small, unconscious part of my brain that is always with the horse. Like when other people hack Fin, they have issues with him grabbing the bit and steering into the bushes to snack. He never, ever does that crap with me. Even when chatting away to whoever I'm riding with, I can feel his mind going in that direction and block him with a light seat and leg aid, and he's a good boy.

I don't know.

I do lots of dumb stuff. Really dumb. Hermosa broke her bosal hangar last week because I was letting her follow me across the courtyard, loose, no hands on reins, and she went for a fly and stepped on the rein. Snapped the leather. But didn't panic or get upset or anything. I had to chase up a new hangar, though!
 
stangs said:
On the other hand, if CC’s horse were a dog, say a spaniel type, I’d tell her that she needs to be training her dog to learn to switch off under saddle. Not in the sense that he completely switches off from the riders’ aids, but in the sense that he learns that he doesn’t always need to keep an eye out or wait for something to do. He can just ‘be’ in the moment with his rider.

Obviously this is a long process - I’m not saying CC should right now start plodding around on a long rein and letting him spook left right and centre.

But, in the long term, it’s just not beneficial for an animal’s mental health to always be on the go, on the look out, trying to find something to do, etc.

The idea that a horse should spend all their work time ready for instruction makes me a bit sick, if I’m honest. They need downtime within ridden time, as well as in the field. And, quite frankly, I think the idea that a horse should not even itch its nose, a basic bodily requirement, because a rider is on its back, is bordering on cruel.

Plus what a double standard - expect the horse to be completely still as you talk to your trainer but how many people can stand completely still for 5 minutes straight?
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In my experience, young horses often like you to be present and actively riding. It gives them confidence that you are actively leading and they don’t have to. So they relax as you take over the mental burden of staying safe/making decisions.

As they age (in terms of experience as well as actual age - a green 15 yo can be very much like riding a 4yo!) they become more confident in themselves and in the world around them. Buckle end riding is more achievable at that point.

I have an adult pony for whom I need to be present, with a contact and leg on. She’s had very little experience though - a year ago she was wound like a spring, suspicious of everything and spooking hugely like a sharp 3yo. This year so long as I ride forwards I’m barely getting a spook. In a year or two I’ll be able to toddle along with a loose rein as I can on my more experienced (but similar aged) NF mare.
 
When I share something Buck said, I’m not necessarily endorsing it. Sometimes I share things simply because they might be useful or interesting to someone, even if I haven’t decided how I personally feel about them. My own views are constantly evolving, and the same bit of information can land very differently with me at different times. There's also always the risk of things getting lost in translation.

This came up recently in a conversation about getting Myka in front of the leg (back when I was riding regularly—feels like ages ago now!). Buck talks about progressing from a pre-cue, to a “1,” to a “9.” In his words: you let the horse know with your energy or intent that something is coming (the pre-cue), then you whisper the actual cue, and finally you bellow it. He says, “They’ll accept the good deal (the whisper) or wish they had.”

Personally, I don’t see the need to escalate that dramatically—certainly not with Myka! I’d hate to be yelled at just for being a moment slow, so why would I treat my horse that way?

Plus, Buck’s timing and clarity may be exceptional, and his horse might truly be choosing to ignore his cues. But for most of us (and our horses), that’s not necessarily the case. A horse might not respond right away due to confusion or some other barrier, not defiance. That’s why this kind of escalation advice feels a bit irresponsible to me—it can easily be misapplied by people who go straight to “9” without giving their horse a fair shot to understand.

That said, what is helpful in his approach is the emphasis on always starting with the lightest possible cue and then following up with something clear and decisive. Before I understood that, my cues were often just muddled in the middle—not light enough to be educational, but not clear enough to be effective when the horse didn’t respond. I was asking with too much, then settling for too little.

Now I try to always offer the light cue—even with less responsive horses—before increasing. It’s become a fairly solid habit. At first, most horses don’t seem to notice the pre-signals or light cues. But they generally start picking up on them fairly quickly once it becomes consistent.

Anyhow, I am not sure where I am with 'be on it all the time' - On balance I'd like my horses to be able to think for themselves without losing the plot at every random leaf, so I can just relaxed and enjoy the ride. But perhaps some horses aren't great with the level of responsibility when young, and perhaps some never are?
 
Ambers Echo said:
When I share something Buck said, I’m not necessarily endorsing it. Sometimes I share things simply because they might be useful or interesting to someone, even if I haven’t decided how I personally feel about them. My own views are constantly evolving, and the same bit of information can land very differently with me at different times. There's also always the risk of things getting lost in translation.

This came up recently in a conversation about getting Myka in front of the leg (back when I was riding regularly—feels like ages ago now!). Buck talks about progressing from a pre-cue, to a “1,” to a “9.” In his words: you let the horse know with your energy or intent that something is coming (the pre-cue), then you whisper the actual cue, and finally you bellow it. He says, “They’ll accept the good deal (the whisper) or wish they had.”

Personally, I don’t see the need to escalate that dramatically—certainly not with Myka! I’d hate to be yelled at just for being a moment slow, so why would I treat my horse that way?

Plus, Buck’s timing and clarity may be exceptional, and his horse might truly be choosing to ignore his cues. But for most of us (and our horses), that’s not necessarily the case. A horse might not respond right away due to confusion or some other barrier, not defiance. That’s why this kind of escalation advice feels a bit irresponsible to me—it can easily be misapplied by people who go straight to “9” without giving their horse a fair shot to understand.

That said, what is helpful in his approach is the emphasis on always starting with the lightest possible cue and then following up with something clear and decisive. Before I understood that, my cues were often just muddled in the middle—not light enough to be educational, but not clear enough to be effective when the horse didn’t respond. I was asking with too much, then settling for too little.

Now I try to always offer the light cue—even with less responsive horses—before increasing. It’s become a fairly solid habit. At first, most horses don’t seem to notice the pre-signals or light cues. But they generally start picking up on them fairly quickly once it becomes consistent.

Anyhow, I am not sure where I am with 'be on it all the time' - On balance I'd like my horses to be able to think for themselves without losing the plot at every random leaf, so I can just relaxed and enjoy the ride. But perhaps some horses aren't great with the level of responsibility when young, and perhaps some never are?
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It all comes back to feeling though. If I gave an appropriate cue and a horse tells me to piss off, I'm probably going right to 9. If the horse didn't understand, I'm not just going to amplify what I just did, I'm going to clarify.

I'd you unjustly amplify or otherwise escalate, you'll know it, and it will mess up your training and the horse for sure. It will create a nervous wreck or a switched off horse in most instances.

I'm all for obedience, but we need to check ourselves too.
 
CanteringCarrot said:
It all comes back to feeling though. If I gave an appropriate cue and a horse tells me to piss off, I'm probably going right to 9. If the horse didn't understand, I'm not just going to amplify what I just did, I'm going to clarify.

I'd you unjustly amplify or otherwise escalate, you'll know it, and it will mess up your training and the horse for sure. It will create a nervous wreck or a switched off horse in most instances.

I'm all for obedience, but we need to check ourselves too.
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Yes exactly. Some people don't have particularly good feel and may not realise that. So it could become a 'how to', used unfairly on people who don't realise they lack the understanding and feel they need to use something like this well. Which is why I don't think he should say it in that way in a clinic of 60 riders and several hundred spectatprs of widely varying levels of experience and skill.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Yes exactly. Some people don't have particularly good feel and may not realise that. So it could become a 'how to', used unfairly on people who don't realise they lack the understanding and feel they need to use something like this well. Which is why I don't think he should say it in that way in a clinic of 60 riders and several hundred spectatprs of widely varying levels of experience and skill.
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You can’t teach feel in a demo. It is developed over countless hours of observing and tuning in to the horse and practising. The truly great horsepeople are born with the beginnings of it, and some people never develop it despite all the time and practice and education in the world. Feel is tuning in to the fine details of the horse, instinctively being able to make adjustments because of what you perceive almost before the conscious mind has alerted you.

Horses are not an academic exercise. They are not robots that you can learn to control with this cue and that command and this method. That is like using sign language to give instructions to an employee from another country without either of you attempting to learn the other’s language.

Horses are living beings with thoughts and feelings and opinions. They have personalities of their own, they reason and make decisions of their own. You can come along with human things and human ideas and bore/beat/treat them into submission and they may humour you or put up with you or obey out of fear. But a true partner is made because you make the effort to cross the language barrier and understand each other.

You can use treats to change association, to make training fun, to relax enough that communication can begin, yes, but overall it is important to listen. To respect them as thinking beings and use our limited ability as humans to speak their language and step into their world. Making that first step to speak their language opens lines of communication, they then make more effort to ‘speak’ and it is up to us to listen.

I’m pretty sure my ponies think we are weak, unintelligent beings. They have to ‘shout’ and develop novel sign language to be understood, even then we don’t always get it until they are literally pantomiming what they need; we cannot walk or run as far or as fast as they, so they have to look after us and carry us.

Today I watched my son’s sensitive special Welsh D guide him. Something was bothering her - so she made him run around trying to catch her. Once she was sure he understood there was an issue, she came in. He checked her hooves - she nuzzled him to say ‘Well done for starting to look for the problem’, he checked her body all over for cuts etc - she sighed (it’s like playing a game of hot and cold!), he picked up the saddle pad, she tensed and deliberately swung her nose round towards it. He checked it and found the issue…I found him a different one, she relaxed and began to eat grass.
 
Great day with Amara yesterday . She did her first bit of polework . She really seemed to enjoy it . We also have builders in at the moment , and they decided to start shaking a blue plastic tarpaulin right next the arena . All she did was slowly come to a stop and look at it . Even our old boy Finn would have spun and run off 🤣IMG_9923.png
 
Ambers Echo said:
@CanteringCarrot your post about keeping your horse mentally engaged triggered a vague memory of a discussion I had about that re Amber. I write about it here on a thread about the Buck Brannaman clinic where he says riders should keep fully focused and mentally engaged with their horses. I can't get the hang of multi uotes but the response below Dabdab's comment is mine from back then. I do still want my horse to just get on with it at times. I checked out mentally when hacking Lottie all the time, and she never freaked out. But maybe some horses don't cope so well with being 'abandoned'.




I do love a good debate! This is something I struggle with a bit. Buck was very clear that he NEVER 'abandons' the horse, he NEVER just bimbles. Every movement the horse makes on the ground or under saddle has to be 'with quality' and with focus and care and attention. Guy Robertson (a UK based Buck student/trainer) says similar. He uses the phrase 'being particular'. When the horse is in a field being a horse he can do what he wants. When he is haltered he is 'at work' and needs to be on it. His job might be to stand still while you fix fence, or stand still while you sit on him and listen to a trainer. So he should not pull to grass, or rub his head on you or fidget, or stamp his feet or itch his nose on his leg. Instead he should be relaxed and attentive, waiting for the next instruction.

I remember at the time thinking this is all a bit too much like hard work. It's a HOBBY and I really do sometimes just want to go on a hack with my friends and have a chat and let the horse get on with it with me having stay concentrated and focused. On the other hand I don't want the horse to spook or spin or tank off and Buck says the 2 things go hand in hand. If you let you horse get on with it then that's fine - he will happily take over the decision making but he will know he is 'alone' so if something goes wrong he will take whatever action he deems appropriate which is unlikely to be a response you want. I had more or less decided to ignore this part of the method when I was hacking round the farm ride at Somerford. On the buckle gossiping. A pheasant flew out, Amber spun and I did not even know anything had happened before landing flat on my back. She has never spun before even with similar levels of triggering and I now believe that she would have been less reactive if she believed I was mentally engaged with her.
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I've been really thinking about this! 🤣 I understand the principle of not abandoning a horse and the idea that bimbling can result in horses making decisions; that is definitely a thing! But, having really thought about this I do think that at least a part of training, of horsemanship and of partnership is getting to a point of trust and understanding that means a horse; working or bimbling has the skill and the confidence to allow for more 'informality' (if you like). When we are working sheep with our horses, for example, we need them to be able to switch on and switch off easily; switch on to a ewe in a gorse bush, turn, halt to canter etc. We also need to know that we can drop the reins and phone/use a walkie talkie, have a drink, drift quietly to another bit of hill. We may be looking for ewes and need our horses to help out by just quietly trucking on, making good, safe decisions for us. The same is true when we hack out really. I don't feel personally comfortable with the idea a horse in 'waiting' mode can't graze or fidget tbh; those things reflect human values around discipline which I'm not sure are valid in a human-horse partnership -at least in some situations!

I believe it is important to be able to cue a horse as to the nature and intensity of an activity and to teach a switch 'off' to informal ridden work seems really invaluable. At the same time I get that my horse will not appreciate me switching off completely - slouching, unaware of a fly problem or other irritant, any more than I want horse to just stop and graze; they understand that there are different levels of intensity I think...

The approach outlined that requires both parties to be completely focussed feels difficult in relation to developing an intuitive and intentional relationship with a horse (or dog) and I always thought that is what Buck etc were working towards and was at least a part of 'feel'. So I'm slightly confused but have ridden this week - both with focus and informality and horses seem to understand when either is required! Interesting ideas...
 
You ride the horse how it needs to be ridden. End of.

I'm also going to ride slightly different schooling dressage in a school than I am going to on a hack or working sheep or whatever. Many of the same principles do still apply, don't get me wrong. I do want my horse to be able to think, switch on/off, and accept some times as more leisurely. They don't always come that way right out of the box though!

I've not created a robot, or a horse that can't think for himself, or one that needs to be micromanaged, but his mental and physical energy, as well as his intelligence does need to be channeled and guided a lot of the time. I don't think that's a bad thing or even all that weird of a thing. Especially if the horse shows you that, yes, this is what I need right now.

Mine has shown me that he can feel abandoned, and that he does want/need more at this stage. PRE's (and others too) are intelligent, sensitive, "highly involved" and want back and forth feedback, IME. Sure, some are more chill about things than others, but they tend to want an active yet fine/quiet ride. Active doesn't mean "harsh", hard, or using all sorts of aids or commands right and left. It does mean a certain level of engagement though. You really can't have a highly trained horse without that. Atleast from a dressage perspective but I imagine other perspectives too.

I think that Buck takes things to an extreme at times, but he's a full on type of guy. If you don't want to be that guy, then don't.
 
Asha said:
Great day with Amara yesterday . She did her first bit of polework . She really seemed to enjoy it . We also have builders in at the moment , and they decided to start shaking a blue plastic tarpaulin right next the arena . All she did was slowly come to a stop and look at it . Even our old boy Finn would have spun and run off 🤣View attachment 164114
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She is really smart 😍
 
It’s a funny thought to me that the horse should never take charge, because we train children’s ponies - most often first pony types - to do exactly that!

No one wants a young child’s pony that needs riding between hand and leg all the time. Everyone wants a pony that will make good decisions and keep their child safe, saving them even from themselves if necessary. It takes lots of miles and hours to give a pony the experience and confidence needed, but we do need them to think for themselves.

This summer’s 3yo is already learning that. My daughter hopped off for a big traffic situation the other day then hopped back on when it had all passed. Pony wanted to go so started walking almost as soon as she had hit the saddle and mistimed it. Kid wasn’t quite securely on as a result, pony huffed audibly and wriggled under her to catch her. I could almost hear the ‘Seriously? I have to catch you now? Come ON, let’s GO!’ vibes! Pony has good instincts, we just need to develop them.
 
Again, train/ride how this horse needs to be trained/ridden.

Buck also isn't training ponies for kids, that I know of. So he's probably in a different realm.

I don't think that anyone *here* wants or has said that they train a horse to never think for themselves. However, some of that "thinking for themselves" is a result of training, in a way. So thinking for themselves is them making a choice, but us having given them/trained those choices before.
 
CanteringCarrot said:
Again, train/ride how this horse needs to be trained/ridden.

Buck also isn't training ponies for kids, that I know of. So he's probably in a different realm.

I don't think that anyone *here* wants or has said that they train a horse to never think for themselves. However, some of that "thinking for themselves" is a result of training, in a way. So thinking for themselves is them making a choice, but us having given them/trained those choices before.
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I was referring to the Buck comment, yes.

Although surely training a horse for a beginner/novice rider would be largely similar. I know I trained my husband’s last ride exactly the same way we train the kids’ ponies - because he too needs an equine that can look after him and keep him safe!
 
Small pony has now been in the arena once to practice trotting and, although took a bit of time to click, he got it after a few goes and was trotting on well.
Considering he can be a bit buzzy, I was pleased the work we'd done paid off and I was able to get my leg on him a bit more safely!

Today he had his first hack in company as has been solo up to this point.
He didn't see the need for his nanny and strode off without him!

Cute photo from when we got back- I am 5'10 so might have to stop calling him small pony as he takes my leg up quite well!
He does need a better bridle now though as this one doesn't show how pretty he is.
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Had a tough day today. Rustle attacked his sister Amara, totally unprovoked. Fortunately she got out of the way, but he meant it. He tried to pin her and back barrell her. Then he raised a leg at me.
Its so out of character, he adores his sister.
I cant let this go on. Hes clearly in alot of pain. Had the physio out yesterday for routine stuff, and she looked at him across the stable door and commented on how much muscle hes lost since she saw a couple of months ago.
Sorry, i know this isnt the place to put this . Just struggling to make the call.
 
Asha said:
Had a tough day today. Rustle attacked his sister Amara, totally unprovoked. Fortunately she got out of the way, but he meant it. He tried to pin her and back barrell her. Then he raised a leg at me.
Its so out of character, he adores his sister.
I cant let this go on. Hes clearly in alot of pain. Had the physio out yesterday for routine stuff, and she looked at him across the stable door and commented on how much muscle hes lost since she saw a couple of months ago.
Sorry, i know this isnt the place to put this . Just struggling to make the call.
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Massive hugs. It’s becoming more clear cut isn’t it. Doesn’t make it any easier though 😢
 
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