Backing 3/4yr olds

maya2008 said:
Has he gone for rides with the bear on? So it moves and spends more time on his back? We go for hacks around the field then out, ponied from another horse, with bear attached. Person after that.
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The thing is though a stuffed bear isn't relative in height to a human for a horse, it is slightly different for smaller ponies. What frightens them the most is ' seeing you up there '. I learnt this from an older very knowledgeable horseman over 50 yrs ago. The problem was soon cracked thanks to his experience, me having been decked 3 times. I suggested this way to a well known trainer, privately via email, who was clearly struggling who posted about it and videos on fb, she said, "oh no I want to do it the normal way " ! Err what's the normal way - you have to adapt to different ways. Horses and ponies - they can all be different. Some can be plain sailing and easy, some are quirky and some difficult. She ignored my suggestion for a good week faffing about and getting nowhere, and it can make the situation even worse. Then in desperation she tried it, and Bingo! The thing is as well, the longer you are struggling it's not helping the situation, it's like teaching them to mess about, and you are wasting time. It is also dangerous if the horse insists on broncking and decking you. I never did get a thank you from her. I have posted about this before on another thread.
 
YourValentine said:
Still not on. Could care less about the bear, even with legs lengthened by stuffing sandbags and a cardboard spine for the bear. At least we know he is desensitised to stuffed animals should I ever take him to a carnival 🤷‍♀️

So back to standing on any and everything, waving limbs around and leaning on & over him.
Leaning on him from on other horses etc just everything possible to desensitise him to people being above and doing stuff.
He will now stand next to most farm machinery, logs, silage bales, gates etc. which will hopefully come in useful for getting on out hacking one day.
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We got a 4yo cob from one of those dealers who likes to stand on their backs. Turns out they'd missed the mounting stage, the sitting up stage, the rising trot stage and dismounting. But if I'd wanted to stand on her back then great. (Bought unseen, long story, was ok in the end)

I think some bits of the process freak out some horses more than others. We had a very high wooden mounting block and I spent a lot of time dancing on top of it for this pony. Very reactive to movement behind her.
 
SEL said:
We got a 4yo cob from one of those dealers who likes to stand on their backs. Turns out they'd missed the mounting stage, the sitting up stage, the rising trot stage and dismounting. But if I'd wanted to stand on her back then great. (Bought unseen, long story, was ok in the end)

I think some bits of the process freak out some horses more than others. We had a very high wooden mounting block and I spent a lot of time dancing on top of it for this pony. Very reactive to movement behind her.
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Some bits of the process certainly do freak some out more than others. Long reining can really freak some out. You have to adapt and find ways to overcome some of the problems that can occur.
 
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Yes Joe also says that some horses totally freak out by seeing you up there. And also by the leg suddenly appearing down the other side. He does a lot of flag work above the saddle so things appearing where a rider sits is not a shock. And also lots of perching on one side where he can bail easily - his weight is actually over the saddle, not down the stirrup - and rubbing the hand down where the leg will go to make sure the horse is tolerating pressure on the 'wrong' side. Myka is incredibly sensitive to anything that feels like a predator on her back but he kept her under threshold throughout the backing process.
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That's a debateable suggestion by Joe @Ambers Echo, it wasn't my way though. If the horse isn't reactive then all well and good, but you could so easily get launched, well you can anyway with any horse or pony accepted, whatever method is used. It is actually freaking me out that he isn't wearing a suitable hat.
After the problem horse that decked me I continued with the same methods, re backing, with every horse and pony that I had in to do, as well as many of my own home bred, with no further such problems. No teddies, big panda's etc. or dumb jockey's were ever used though. I do agree that with small ponies it is a good sensible solution for starters if no very small light weight adults + adult helper on the ground are available. Why risk introducing problems that you possibly can avoid in the first place, and save time in doing so !

The mentioned problem horse went on to break a world record with Michael Whittaker, we knew the owners who were local to us. My claim to fame was starting the horse off 😏
 
If she reacts he steps down. He can’t get launched. It was by far the safest way to get on for ages - step up, check out her response , make sure she can flex softly towards you, run your hand down the other side, pat her rump. If all that checks out, slide other keg over. If not, step down, re-set, start again. Re the hat - yes I agree!
 
Ambers Echo said:
If she reacts he steps down. He can’t get launched. It was by far the safest way to get on for ages - step up, check out her response , make sure she can flex softly towards you, run your hand down the other side, pat her rump. If all that checks out, slide other keg over. If not, step down, re-set, start again. Re the hat - yes I agree!
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Fair do's, yes in that case I agree, a good sensible way of doing it. I have to say I haven't seen that way done before. I am a short ar*e though, it would have been difficult in fact impossible, for me to just step down from a big horse. In my younger days I was light and small enough to get on little ponies, I could set up little show ponies for their little jockey's to get on, and did many. I have been out of horses for well over 20 years due to personal circumstances and don't keep up on who is doing what and how. No, I don't miss it at all !
 
My only other suggestion is try a different jockey.

My daughter is our backing jockey - she is so unthreatening I have never had anything react badly to her, even the most special of ponies. Worst one we had evicted my son multiple times before I popped my daughter on. Kid hit the saddle, pony went to buck, went ‘Oh this is ok’, looked sheepish that she had nearly overreacted and that was that. I have no idea how it works - she bounces up to them and they go all soppy eyed and kind. She then scrambles on, sings sweet nothings to them, wriggles around on their backs and all is well. 🤷‍♀️
 
Small pony continues to polish his halo, he's now graduated from the village hacking and ready to go further round the lanes.
We're just starting to ask for a bit of connection in the arena, one session a week, in preparation for canter.
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Giant ginger is doing ok, slower but ok. I am a teeny bit disappointed in his education after 10 weeks away but ce la vie!
I've decided to ride him on for 4-5 weeks at home before getting his wind looked at. Mainly on the assumption he will need an op and time off and I would like to feel more confident getting back on him after a break!
I do love riding him though
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maya2008 said:
Has he gone for rides with the bear on? So it moves and spends more time on his back? We go for hacks around the field then out, ponied from another horse, with bear attached. Person after that.
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Round the yard and the field, haven't taken him round the village with the bear strapped on, just incase something goes wrong, I dont fancy having to explain to insurance why he had a bear flapping off one side 😅

Interestingly though, I put the back protector on the bear this weekend to see what he thought, and he found that worrying. So going to try and really dress the bear up like a rider and do some more work.
 
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maya2008 said:
My only other suggestion is try a different jockey.

My daughter is our backing jockey - she is so unthreatening I have never had anything react badly to her, even the most special of ponies. Worst one we had evicted my son multiple times before I popped my daughter on. Kid hit the saddle, pony went to buck, went ‘Oh this is ok’, looked sheepish that she had nearly overreacted and that was that. I have no idea how it works - she bounces up to them and they go all soppy eyed and kind. She then scrambles on, sings sweet nothings to them, wriggles around on their backs and all is well. 🤷‍♀️
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I unfortunately don't know anyone will to donate their child to the cause 😆 any of yours annoying you? 😉

He really doesn't trust strangers, which is why I would like to suceed and not have to send him away/ get someone else in. Because it will be a quite a few steps back before they can go forward, particularly if its a man.
 
millitiger said:
Small pony continues to polish his halo, he's now graduated from the village hacking and ready to go further round the lanes.
We're just starting to ask for a bit of connection in the arena, one session a week, in preparation for canter.
View attachment 165133

Giant ginger is doing ok, slower but ok. I am a teeny bit disappointed in his education after 10 weeks away but ce la vie!
I've decided to ride him on for 4-5 weeks at home before getting his wind looked at. Mainly on the assumption he will need an op and time off and I would like to feel more confident getting back on him after a break!
I do love riding him though
View attachment 165136
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The Giant Ginger lools very sweet, and small pony is looking very grown up.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Yes Joe also says that some horses totally freak out by seeing you up there. And also by the leg suddenly appearing down the other side. He does a lot of flag work above the saddle so things appearing where a rider sits is not a shock. And also lots of perching on one side where he can bail easily - his weight is actually over the saddle, not down the stirrup - and rubbing the hand down where the leg will go to make sure the horse is tolerating pressure on the 'wrong' side. Myka is incredibly sensitive to anything that feels like a predator on her back but he kept her under threshold throughout the backing process.
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This is sort of what we'd been doing/ working on, but he clearly wasnt as OK with it as we thought when I went to put my leg over.
So hopefully a combination of getting him used to randomly waving legs, a lot more work on his confidence with the leaning on & over and doing lots of stuff above him will mean, that next time my leg twitches in towards going over I don't have to bail quite as fast.

Thank you all for the suggestions, they're all very helpful
 
YourValentine said:
I unfortunately don't know anyone will to donate their child to the cause 😆 any of yours annoying you? 😉

He really doesn't trust strangers, which is why I would like to suceed and not have to send him away/ get someone else in. Because it will be a quite a few steps back before they can go forward, particularly if its a man.
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I know it sounds random, but maybe your missing piece is that he doesn’t fully trust humans enough. He isn’t ‘tame enough’ as it were. So if he can see you there in front of him, because he trusts you personally, he can squash his worries and mask them for you. But the second you are behind his head and something starts moving to his other side he feels afraid. Your confidence giving presence isn’t where he needs it while something he’s not sure about is going on above.
 
maya2008 said:
I know it sounds random, but maybe your missing piece is that he doesn’t fully trust humans enough. He isn’t ‘tame enough’ as it were. So if he can see you there in front of him, because he trusts you personally, he can squash his worries and mask them for you. But the second you are behind his head and something starts moving to his other side he feels afraid. Your confidence giving presence isn’t where he needs it while something he’s not sure about is going on above.
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Absolutely think this is part of it, and we've spent the last 9 months working on this. Spent loads of time doing stuff on the ground - handling and just hanging out, bring him along to do chores etc., to try and make him used to people doing all sorts and nothing bad happens to him, and sometimes there's a bit of hay/carrot grass for him.
And we've introduced him to as many 'nice' humans as possible - everyone in the village has met him and anyone on the yard, horsey or not has to come and say hi, talk to him and give him pat & bit of carrot.
If you have any other ideas on how to build his trust/confidence in people please do share.

I should say in his defense he is an absolute sweetie on the ground now he trusts us and will follow you anywere round the yard, stand patiently while you do stuff - and is curious and likes to "help" (check if things are edible).

Once something had happened once or twice and its not hurt or he's met a someone and they've been nice to him he is fine with it. It's how to break down that getting on moment into bite sized chunks.
 
YourValentine said:
Round the yard and the field, haven't taken him round the village with the bear strapped on, just incase something goes wrong, I dont fancy having to explain to insurance why he had a bear flapping off one side 😅

Interestingly though, I put the back protector on the bear this weekend to see what he thought, and he found that worrying. So going to try and really dress the bear up like a rider and do some more work.
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So sorry but I laughed at your comment of the bear hanging off one side flapping about and attempting to explain the circumstances to the insurance company. Definitely not funny in reality, and the situation that you are in isn't exactly going to give you and your horse any confidence. I did send you a pm. with suggestions about 3 weeks ago, not sure if you got it. As you are struggling it may be worth sending to Joe, or another reputable professional, obviously distance in travelling could be a consideration for you if you decide to let someone else take over. His idea looks good and sensible, apart from his headgear ! I don't know anything about him as I am completely out of touch. I am definitely not saying that you are not competent enough, but sometimes a different approach by someone else can be the answer. I would not try rent-a-kid obviously though ! :eek::oops: Surely at some point he will need to get used to other people, and men as well. A man's weight and strength could be a bonus. You could get badly hurt and then not be able to ride at all. Some horses and ponies can take some getting going through quirkiness. Some never do succumb, I had one in that was dangerous to even get some tack on it, the horse ended up being sent to a ' hard man ', he couldn't crack it !
Clearly your horse isn't dangerous but is obviously freaked out by 'seeing ' someone taller above him and movement around and behind his eyeline which is foreign to him. I wish you good luck with him moving forwards.
 
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YourValentine said:
This is sort of what we'd been doing/ working on, but he clearly wasnt as OK with it as we thought when I went to put my leg over.
So hopefully a combination of getting him used to randomly waving legs, a lot more work on his confidence with the leaning on & over and doing lots of stuff above him will mean, that next time my leg twitches in towards going over I don't have to bail quite as fast.

Thank you all for the suggestions, they're all very helpful
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I sympathise! I am finding it frustrating and anxiety provoking having a horse who is so sensitive to stuff others horses take in their stride within a couple of sessions. I made the mistake with Myka at first of trying to be 'gentle' - but Joe told me to make sure I was matter of fact. When he puts his leg over he always touchs her rump with it - keeps it there, gives it a bit of a rub. So that it one day someone accidentaly kicks her on the rump as they swing over it's no big deal. Once on he sits for a while legs off, flexing vertically and lateralls to make sure neck is loose and soft. Then he picks up 1 rein and uses one leg to get a single side or yielding step. If they over-react to the leg from that position he can easily disengage the hind - they are already flexed. Come to a stop, go back to flexing, start again. One they are stepping off one leg and flexing on each rein, he might allow them to walk forwards off both legs. He has told me to do that for weeks if not months! Not that thats ALL we are doing - it is just the start of the session - but as a way of safely getting on and using both reins and both legs witout the horse objecting to any of it.

With Myka I am finding we need to repeat those check-ins far more often than I imagined. With tack, with pre-moutning checks and with aids once on.

When my trainer (the one who ended up being ditched) got on her for about the 4th time, (the trainers 4th time not Myka's - she probably had 50 rides on her by then) she did the pre-flight checks as I had shown her, but then once on just immediately put both legs on to walk on. Myka jumped a mile - totally genuine startle reaction and no big deal but trainer was taken aback at how the leg had surprised and upset her. So I saw in realtime the importance of taking that little extra time at the beginning of each ride with a sensitive horse just to check in with her. Myka is odd because once I was on and moving forward I could use a lot of leg and she was fine with it. She just needs time to get used to the idea of tack, riders, legs. It seems to trigger a very strong primal 'something on me to to eat me' reaction. I assume that eventually she will be totally fine with all of it but for now she still needs time to figure it out and relax into tack and riders.
 
No photos but small pony now has canter installed, he was perfect 💗
Very relaxed, managed to get around the corners of the arena and really easy to pop up into it.
It was what I imagined riding a large sea horse would be like, very up and down like he was riding waves 😅
Really pleased with how relaxed and balanced he was. I might look for some little RC training things to take him to for some exposure.
 
YourValentine said:
Absolutely think this is part of it, and we've spent the last 9 months working on this. Spent loads of time doing stuff on the ground - handling and just hanging out, bring him along to do chores etc., to try and make him used to people doing all sorts and nothing bad happens to him, and sometimes there's a bit of hay/carrot grass for him.
And we've introduced him to as many 'nice' humans as possible - everyone in the village has met him and anyone on the yard, horsey or not has to come and say hi, talk to him and give him pat & bit of carrot.
If you have any other ideas on how to build his trust/confidence in people please do share.

I should say in his defense he is an absolute sweetie on the ground now he trusts us and will follow you anywere round the yard, stand patiently while you do stuff - and is curious and likes to "help" (check if things are edible).

Once something had happened once or twice and its not hurt or he's met a someone and they've been nice to him he is fine with it. It's how to break down that getting on moment into bite sized chunks.
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From my experience, the person on the ground needs to be no.1 totally trusted person. If you need to be the one getting on, then you need to build that trust between him and a friend or family member. It’s asking him to do something scary (desensitising stuff works well) and the new person managing that well and reassuring him effectively that builds trust the fastest.

My son’s super special mare was supposed to be mine. She trusts me completely, but we got stuck where you are - for us it was using the reins, but still just as stuck. I wanted so badly to be the one to get on, but it wasn’t to be. She needed to SEE me, to have me there with her, at her head, feeding her carrots and whispering sweet nothings. We had spent a year building trust and for her, no one else would do. We are now just over a year later. She no longer has little moments when she scoots to me for cuddles with a panicked look on her face, but she still likes to know I’m there. Last winter we made it to the dizzy heights of me being there at the start of the ride then wandering off and leaving her. We are now working towards her hacking alone. I hope after that they can tack up and ride without me there. Ours had significant trauma and it took me a year to get enough trust that I could catch and handle her.

I would also dress the bear in whatever your jockey will wear. Exactly what they will wear if possible.
 
Hope everyone’s youngsters are going well.

Mine went on a new, open field route today. A little active but kept herself to the speed of the ride, relaxing as time went on. Then on the way home she tripped, righted herself, caught the kid and ignored the huge drama behind her where the Welsh D had decided the world was unsafe, leapt about like a nutter and lost her child.

I honestly could not be more proud.
 
Am i allowed to join in? Not sure if I technically fit the criteria as horse is already backed, but he is 4!
I was originally looking for a OTTB for eventing and ROR classes but ended up with a 4 year old unraced TB, a lovely big old fashioned jumper type. He was backed at the tail end of last year, had the spring off and then did another 6 weeks or so until I bought him at the end of May.
Currently living out (will be coming in at night once the clocks change). He had 3 weeks off when he first came, then 3 weeks of hacking, another 3 weeks off while I was on holiday and since the middle of July has been mostly hacking, with a teeny bit of schooling in a big field. He's had two mini outings, one to a xc schooling venue to see a few little banks, logs, ditches etc, and one to a SJ arena to have a go at some tiny coloured poles. So far he's proving to be a total pet, absolutely unphased by anything other than the farrier, who he despises (will need sedation going forward 😂).
Plan is to get a few more little outings under his belt in the autumn and hopefully get him out doing a few TB/young horse classes next year 😊
 
Hows things going with everyones neddies ?

Not much happening here really, just hacking out a bit. Amara did do her first proper bit of polework the other day, and she genuinely loved it. I popped some raised poles up too but she wanted to jump them. Weve had strong words.. shes been told numerous times shes not a jumper. Then at the end as she got a bit tired she just walked over a few of the lightweight plastic poles, which she knocked with her hinds so they rolled underneath, and then knocked them again, and the pole continue to roll underneath. Could have been a disaster with a sharper mind, but she didnt care a bit. Lesson learnt , dont use the light weight poles for polework.
 
Just hacking in walk and trot here.

Working on getting the ginger one as light on the aids as possible so no contact in his mouth unless asking for something and then leg is literally to ask for forward and then off. He's the coolest cucumber out and about - he loves an adventure. I'm not brave enough yet to push for a canter but I'm sure it will happen at some point. He's been out to a few in hand shows and is learning all about life as a 'grown up'

The round pony (who shouldn't really be in the group anymore) is doing lots of in hand hacking, long reining and finding obstacles in the forest to walk over, under and around. I can't bare riding in his saddle any longer so I'm on foot with him until I've saved for a new to me leather saddle for him - he/we are an awkward fit as he will only take a 15-inch saddle and most are like children's saddles with no length at all in the flap, even children have legs but we (I and the saddle fitter) are struggling finding something suitable.
 
We had a tease of spring weather which we made most of by working on trailer loading. He's travelled a handful of times before but not since March. He loads fine but gets tense as the journey goes on and by the time we get to our destination he's quite keen to get off (pushing on the bum gates, pawing etc.)

I've been following the TRT trailer loading course and he's so much more relaxed about the whole thing. A big sign of him holding tension is that he won't step sideways with back legs in the trailer when asked so he's quite braced. By working on getting him to step side to side with both front and back legs have released a lot of that tension, and hopefully help him to better balance himself too.

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I keep flitting between thinking I need to be doing more with Willow, and it really doesn't matter to be going this slowly.

Over the past couple of weeks we had another chiro visit, and saddler came back for 8 week follow up. She's gone from a medium to wide gullet 😳 I've also at last sourced a pair of hoof boots for her fronts too.

We've done some mini hacks, and she's been super. I did have a stupid moment in the school a couple of weeks ago. Riding alone, I thought I wonder what happens if I say 'canter' 🤔 Well we got canter and a lot of boinging and the right lead. So obviously I thought, well I need to try the other rein now, more boinging. So not my smartest move, poor mare hasn't been lunged for ages/done no canter and so of course it was all going to be a bit exciting 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

I'm trying to avoid the school and focus on hacking but now have a niggle in my head that I maybe took a step too fast with the canter and while she didn't come close to getting me off, it's a niggle. It's also a bit stressy here at the moment as my gelding came back from his loan and it's upset the calm dynamic we had going on. So I'm giving things some time to settle.

I am also debating whether to send her away for a few weeks to someone that has better support on the hacking front, as I'm begging and borrowing people to accompany me at the minute and it's not consistent. She's 4 so it's just that feeling of should I be cracking on more than I am, or can we revisit this with more focus next year.
 
Took the gangly 4yo thoroughbred to an arena xc/working hunter arena hire yesterday to do his first little round of jumps. He's been jumping the odd little log in the forest and has been to a xc hire and a sj arena hire before but just to play about really - he hasn't
strung a proper sequence of jumps together before. Kept it all very small but he was an absolute gem. Technique needs a bit of work but cant fault his attitude at all, he was loving it 😊
Little video clip for anyone that could be bothered 🐎
 
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