Backing and age....

queenbee said:
Hi there,

Just a quick question, my initial idea was to back ben at 4, I am now considering doing very light backing earlier, .................................. and he would only be doing very light occasional 20 mins hacking. I know there are a lot of people who back earlier than 4 (who don't brake racers!) I know why some wait till 4, but I just wanted to get general opinions and reasons off others what age do you brake? Why? What are the benefits? What are the cons? Why, if you brake earlier, do you not do it later? and why if you leave it till 4 do you leave it till then?

Thank you :)
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^^^^^this
 
MrsD123 said:
Well there can be downsides that is why the percieved wisdom is to hold back with youngsters if you want them to last a long time.
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Again, that is not the case.

It is the type of work that a horse does at a young age that can be detrimental to their longterm health, not the age it was started.
 
amymay said:
Again, that is not the case.

It is the type of work that a horse does at a young age that can be detrimental to their longterm health, not the age it was started.
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I don't know why you are nit picking amymay, obviously anyone can wreck a horse in a day: if the OP has to ask these questions of a public forum we have to assume her experience is limited, and advise her according to the questions she asks, namely can there be downsides, well yes there can be, as stated before the skeleton is still developing.
She asks about pros and cons, well imho there are more cons than pros, especially as the OP is inexperienced, I judge she is inexperienced based on the fact that she is asking these questions.
I have seen someone [an RSPCA employee] put a rider on a yearling, which then dipped its back and put its ears back.
There are no limits to the stupidity of people, believe me.
eg not worming a horse because "it makes him too frisky"
eg smacking a horse because it hit a fence
eg re-presenting that horse at the jump even though it is is lame from knocking its leg!
eg not trimming hooves [pony had to be shot]
I am not suggesting the OP is stupid, obviously, but sometimes one has to be sanctimonious [taking the moral high ground] when answering on a public forum, the OP is not the only person who will be reading the post.
 
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Slightly off topic ish but i do wonder how on earth a horse could ever be ready for your young event classes as 4 n 5 year olds if they dont start doing lots of ground work as 3 year olds.. these classes were created for the professional riders so surely they must know what they are doing and think that these classes are suitable for horses of this age!!

This isnt my opinion i just wonder what people make of this!! and how they would go about preparing a horse for classes such as this??xx
 
wildcard said:
Slightly off topic ish but i do wonder how on earth a horse could ever be ready for your young event classes as 4 n 5 year olds if they dont start doing lots of ground work as 3 year olds.. these classes were created for the professional riders so surely they must know what they are doing and think that these classes are suitable for horses of this age!!
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A lot of these horses will be shown inhand - so ground work will have been done from a young age.
 
yeah i can understand that but they will be jumping 90cm - 1m for the 4 year old classess and 1.05 - 1.10 for the 5 year old classes what makes it okay for them to be jumping these sorts of heights then surely they must have been practiising at home and out and about??
 
wildcard said:
Slightly off topic ish but i do wonder how on earth a horse could ever be ready for your young event classes as 4 n 5 year olds if they dont start doing lots of ground work as 3 year olds.. these classes were created for the professional riders so surely they must know what they are doing and think that these classes are suitable for horses of this age!!
This isnt my opinion i just wonder what people make of this!! and how they would go about preparing a horse for classes such as this??xx
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Professional riders tend to buy horses that are well bred and have been in professional handling since conception, therefore are bigger and stronger than the average horse.
They usually need to sell a few horses to make their business pay, and often can't wait for several years for the horse to mature to eight or nine before they can win at the top level.
We private owners generally want our horses to develop slowly and mature in line with their age, we only have one horse, so it is important that it is kept sound and lives a long and happy life.
The professional will probably not own many horses, he may buy difficult but talented horses and sell them on to his owners once they have proved themselves in these classes.
Professionals will have the experience and resources to deal with problems along the way, and if professional riders have pushed for young event classes [I don't know the ins and outs] they may pick horses that will do well in these classes so they can be sold at a profit, this is a business, and they have to make a profit or end of business.
The more precocious eventing type horses will be backed at three, and ridden on by good riders, generally the horses are big, strong and well fed. There will be a few good ones out in the field waiting their turn, some will be the type who mature late, so will not be suited to the Young Event Classes.
 
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Amymay -Mrsd123's imagination, mainly :)

OP, I tend to get on at somewhere between 3 and 3.5 years old, work lightly and I don't turn away, really, unless I can feel that the horse isn't mature enough and would benefit from it.
 
MrsD123 said:
Professional riders tend to buy horses that are well bred and have been in professional handling since conception, therefor are stronger than the average horse.
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You are joking, right? How does professional handling make a horse stronger? "well bred"? Are we talking pedigrees - have you looked at pedigree dogs lately? Or does a horse with a sire who won puissance classes purely inherit "strong" genes by some bizarre freak of nature? Or do you imply a "well bred" sj type is stronger than a shire? There are so many problems with that statement I'm contemplating smashing my head off the desk. And you claim to have a scientific back ground.

Also, was it you who described young horses (in the 4-6 year age range) as having "soft" bones? Because that's nonsense too. Yes, growth plates may not have closed in late maturing breeds, but the bones themselves are "normal" calcified "hard" bones. Maybe that's pedantic and nit picking too, but let's aim for some form of accuracy.

I too would like a link to foxhunter's AHT research though...
 
I remember reading ( though I am happy to be corrected ) that the research into young racehorses showed that work as a youngster did accelerate the development of dense bone. the downside was that the racehorses that were tested spent so long galloping on one rein or the other according to teh gallops where they were trained, that the bone development was uneven, leading to future soundness problems.

I may just be thinking of the Ranger research/report (think that's the name of it) the conclusion being that a gelding will not stop growing till it is 7. My view is that steady appropriate excercise is beneficial mentally and phsically, from the age of about 3.5. My youngster didn't start till he was 4.5 as he was so downhill, so I think it entirely depends upon the horse and how it is developing.
 
Weight-bearing exercise in humans helps to strengthen bones and prevent osteoporosis. This is apparently particularly important in childhood and adolescence. Weight-bearing being walking, running, etc as opposed to swimming for example - I don't mean carrying any other weight than your own necessarily!

Therefore it should follow that reasonable, controlled exercise in young horses might help with bone density too. By this I mean walking out in-hand, light backing and so on. Perhaps not as extreme as the life of a racehorse though. I do agree with Amymay's point regarding type of exercise rather than age being the key.
 
amymay said:
What makes these horses stronger than the average horse?
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The mares have been fed a stud mix so that all foal gets all its needs met, it will be well handled and wormed, feet and jabs done routinely, in winter they can be housed and fed according to needs, also a horse walker is often used to develop muscles without having a rider on board.
Basically the horses are selected by breeding for the type required and then managing them to allow them to fulfill their potential.
You only need to go to top bloodstock sales [Cheltenham, Newmarket] and a Saturday market to see the difference between a good young TB and a weedy underfed specimen.
 
MrsD123 said:
So, the horse is not 4 he is only two,.............. I assume that you know that horses are not fully mature til 7 or 8, at the age of two, you can do more damage than good for example the bones are "soft", and easily damaged,
If you need something to ride, borrow a friends horse.
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I love the way things are taken out of context so that the backstabbing can be developed, it would take rather a long time to explain all the ins and outs of skeletal development of a 25 month old horse [and I may have a scientific background but have not claimed specific scientific depth of knowledge in this subject] no matter, general knowledge is that babies [ of all mammals] have "softer" bones, ie a bigger cartilage to calcified bone ratio than aged animals. That is to say, the skeleton is under the care of Mother Nature for life, but a lot of things are developing in the early years which can cause problems, we sometimes forget that the horse was not designed by The Great Creator for the 21st century rider, but we have adapted and tweaked it by breeding for desired traits.
The OP asked for pros and for cons, I said that in my opinion, the cons outweigh the pros, and I stand by that.

For those who need to know more, a lot more there is this........
http://www.ker.com/library/advances/323.pdf
 
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MrsD123 said:
So, the horse is not 4 he is only two, .
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And your point is? I am perfectly aware of Bens age thank you, I saw him at 2 weeks old.

MrsD123 said:
Do you want to hack out a two year old,.
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No, I said 'earlier' than 4, I did not say 'now' and I shall not insult you by providing you with the definitions of the words and their differences, I shall leave that you your capable self.

MrsD123 said:
Not to be patronising / sanctimonious or even intelligent,,.
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Oh thank god because you are often the first two but very rarely come across as the last.

MrsD123 said:
I assume that you know that horses are not fully mature til 7 or 8, at the age of two, you can do more damage than good for example the bones are "soft", and easily damaged,,.
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Again, thank you and yes your assumption is right, I googled it last week. (that was sarcasm by the way)

MrsD123 said:
I did not react to your initial "baiting" till I realised you were talking about riding a two year old, .
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I was not, you misread, earlier than 4 does not mean now, it means next summer (if he seems to me like he can physiologically and mentally take it at that age and no, I will not even be sitting on him at 2, I just wouldn't bother with that

MrsD123 said:
If you need something to ride, borrow a friends horse.
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That is indeed an excellent suggestion, but I have my mare so I am not bereft of ridable horses.

These were the initial questions I asked:
I just wanted to get general opinions and reasons off others what age do you brake? Why? What are the benefits? What are the cons? Why, if you brake earlier, do you not do it later? and why if you leave it till 4 do you leave it till then?


I did not ask what your opinions are on the term 'breaking in'
 
Auslander said:
I prefer to leave mine til they're 4. They could have 20 years as riding horses ahead of them - so I'm happy to give them those first few years to be babies, hang out with their friends, and just generally chill.

I'd be interested to hear why people are so keen to start them earlier - what's the rush?
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I am contemplating it mainly because he loves to be doing things, and working his brain, I want him to just do a little light hacking, walk and a bit of trot, It will keep him occupied and hopefully be enjoyable for him, he is also going to be a big boy so I would like to get the very basics of being ridden established and 'the norm' for him before he starts anything more tasking at 4. I would rather space his training out a bit and make it less like boot camp. If he is mentally and physically able then I just wonder what is the point of leaving a mentally and physically capable horse in the field for an extra year when he could be doing a couple of light hacks going out with the others.
 
queenbee said:
.............he could be doing a couple of light hacks going out with the others. [sic aged three!]
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I should go down on my knees then and ask for a penance [would self flagellation be OK], I suggest in future that you make your initial post clearer, most people ask questions of the "what to do now" type.
I don't think you need/want advice [on a horse which you own and have educated ..... another relevant factor] as it now turns out you want to back him lightly at the age of three, which by consensus is a reasonable time frame.
 
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amymay said:
Can't see where it mentions the horse is two..... However it's almost irrelevant.

With bigger hunter types there is absolutely nothing wrong with a little light breaking at this age. And I would imagine that the OP is sensible enough not to include hacking in this.

What this would mean, MrsD, is introduction of tack, longreining, being sat on, working quietly up to walk and some trot. A walk around the menage (or equivalent) off the lead rein - and then turned away. So perhaps 4 or 5 weeks of light work.

Perceived wisdom is actually to start a horse at an age that is appropriate to that horse. And in my experience (again with big type hunter's) that is often at a late 2 years old - and rising 3 year old.

Perceived wisdom is also to start a potentially big horse at a younger age - when it is somewhat less physically strong - making the process 'safer' for the jockey.......
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Amymay, you have mentioned above a lot of my reasons for contemplating backing earlier than I ordinarily would. As you say he is going to be a big hunter type and my intention is to take is steady and just do little bits to him until he is 3 in terms of handling and ground work then at 3 long reining and backing, in the school establishing his confidence then just a bit of light hacking up and down a very quiet track to the church and back with a handler on the ground and a lead horse. He has already been mouthed (about 6 months ago!) but this was simply as a way of stopping him from chomping on his handlers, he wears a roller when he is tied up for tea, and has seen lots of traffic, which he will continue to do, but this is not because I intend to back him tomorrow, it is just that I want all the equipment to be 'boring' and 'ok' when he turns 3. So that emotionally he does not have to deal with it then.
 
MrsD123 said:
The mares have been fed a stud mix so that all foal gets all its needs met, it will be well handled and wormed, feet and jabs done routinely, in winter they can be housed and fed according to needs, also a horse walker is often used to develop muscles without having a rider on board.
Basically the horses are selected by breeding for the type required and then managing them to allow them to fulfill their potential.
You only need to go to top bloodstock sales [Cheltenham, Newmarket] and a Saturday market to see the difference between a good young TB and a weedy underfed specimen.
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You are making assumptions that the non 'professional' breeder does non of these things.

Many young event classes are actually done by the exactly that - the non professional.
 
I have 2 yearlings. one is similar in breeding to the OP's horse and the other is a big heavyweight secD x something-massive-like- belgian-draught. Anyway,this morning I lent over his back,and patted round the girth area on t'other side IYSWIM. no problem. this is how I go about backing. I wont do any more with him til next year, he was just quiet and calm andI thought i'd try it. the lighter weight one will be lent over at 2.
I always get horses used to seeing me above them too, I sit on the field gate climb over fences and so on so they are used to someone "up there".
I get the horse to a stage where it will groom and pickout feet without needing to be tied up,will lead nicely on a normal leather headcollar,stand,wear a roller and numnah,wear boots,be good with the farrier,in other words,have the horse thoroughly "tame" first.
Everything else is a slow progression. I normally back at 2 [I just lean over in the stable or field one day when they are nice and calm,and eventually this leads to leg over and sitting on them.
THis can take ages or only a couple of days. depends on the horse. then I dont do any more until they are 3 or 4 or even older. my last arab,for example,wasnt backed and ridden until she was 6. depends on the horse. theres no rush, it takes as long as it takes, slow and easy wins the day. And i dont lunge.
 
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queenbee said:
Amymay, you have mentioned above a lot of my reasons for contemplating backing earlier than I ordinarily would. As you say he is going to be a big hunter type and my intention is to take is steady and just do little bits to him until he is 3 in terms of handling and ground work then at 3 long reining and backing, in the school establishing his confidence then just a bit of light hacking up and down a very quiet track to the church and back with a handler on the ground and a lead horse. He has already been mouthed (about 6 months ago!) but this was simply as a way of stopping him from chomping on his handlers, he wears a roller when he is tied up for tea, and has seen lots of traffic, which he will continue to do, but this is not because I intend to back him tomorrow, it is just that I want all the equipment to be 'boring' and 'ok' when he turns 3. So that emotionally he does not have to deal with it then.
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Good luck with him Queenbee. He will get an excellent start with you, whichever age you decide to start him.
 
queenbee said:
I will not even be sitting on him at 2, I just wouldn't bother with that

These were the initial questions I asked:
I just wanted to get general opinions and reasons off others what age do you brake? Why? What are the benefits? What are the cons? Why, if you brake earlier, do you not do it later? and why if you leave it till 4 do you leave it till then?

I did not ask what your opinions are on the term 'breaking in'
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I still am unclear as to what you define as breaking in,
There is halter breaking ..... foals to yearlings I suppose, to me this means a horse or pony can be led and tied up safely.
Broken to drive ... often a young [driving type] horse is broken to drive in a sulkie, this can be done earlier than when ridden as there is no weight on the spine.
Broken to ride ........ generally you will see horses advertised as backed and ridden away, to me this means he has had maybe 6 weeks of light ridden work, and experienced a bit of hacking with a mentor, and still needs most of his school work.
You should be aware that not everyone handles horses as you do, in Ye Olde Days if someone wanted a hunter, they went to the sales, bought a good strong Irish gelding that had been out in a field for five years, sometimes not even halter broken, and broke it in at home, usually in time for cubbing.
 
MrsD123 said:
if the OP has to ask these questions of a public forum we have to assume her experience is limited, She asks about pros and cons, well imho there are more cons than pros, especially as the OP is inexperienced, I judge she is inexperienced based on the fact that she is asking these questions..
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It is a widely aknowleged fact that we do not know everything, I am well aware of the pro's and cons, and am experienced, but was asking others their viewpoints because there is always the chance that you can learn something new, no matter what your level of experiece, I assume that you would agree with this too? Surely you do not see yourself as so knowledgable that you are unable to add to your knowledge or experience base?

MrsD123 said:
the OP is not the only person who will be reading the post.
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This is true and I agree that there may be some things on here that may be informative to some and not others, and if there is anything on here that better informs the reader then that can only be of benefit.
 
You should be aware that not everyone handles horses as you do, in Ye Olde Days if someone wanted a hunter, they went to the sales, bought a good strong Irish gelding that had been out in a field for five years, sometimes not even halter broken, and broke it in at home, usually in time for cubbing.
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Well, you're great for amusement value - if nothing else.
 
MrsD123 said:
I should go down on my knees then and ask for a penance [would self flagellation be OK],
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;)
MrsD123 said:
I suggest in future that you make your initial post clearer, most people ask questions of the "what to do now" type.
I don't think you need/want advice [on a horse which you own and have educated ..... another relevant factor] as it now turns out you want to back him lightly at the age of three, which by consensus is a reasonable time frame.
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I Like to plan in advance and ensure that I have as much information at hand to make an informed decision and my decision as to whether or not I will back/brake at 3 (physiology and mentality permitting) will inform my actions and his education from now on, because I will be working to a time frame. I don't like to make a last minute 'now' decision, I like to know how it will be in advance, I think it allows you to do things in a much more relaxed state of mind.
 
MrsD123 said:
You should be aware that not everyone handles horses as you do, in Ye Olde Days if someone wanted a hunter, they went to the sales, bought a good strong Irish gelding that had been out in a field for five years, sometimes not even halter broken, and broke it in at home, usually in time for cubbing.
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You should be aware that this still happens :D

To be honest I see that a horses education starts from day 1 and is ongoing through life, as long as there is something to learn education goes on.

I see the first milestone as being 'handlable' that would equate to halter broken, good to groom, picks fit up, and leadable.

I will use the term backed or broken as interchangable, I do not see the two as mutually exclusive, part of the braking process is to back and down here many refer to 'professionally backed/produced horses where as others would talk about 'broken horses' to me they are pretty much the same, edcating the horse to take tack and rider and be comfortable with them and know the basics of being ridden.
 
MrsD123 said:
For those who need to know more, a lot more there is this........
http://www.ker.com/library/advances/323.pdf
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Since that article is essentially an editorial and isn't properly referenced, I'm not going to take it as evidence of when maximal bone density is reached. 10 minutes with google scholar and I haven't found any of the articles showing radiographic evidence of this, though I have found the same figures waved around without referencing in other eds. Shame, as it would be helpful to see them. I'm sure they exist, but without seeing them, there is no way of knowing quite what they prove.

That aside, I don't class a 5 or 6 year old horse as a "baby" so your anecdotal "general knowledge" doesn't necessarily apply. Young, yes, but not a baby. Further to which, I also disagree with the term "soft" - less dense isn't necessarily the same as soft... I gather from the figures quoted, the difference in bone density between four / five / six will be relatively low (though again, without the original paper, this is speculation) so where do you draw the line between soft and hard, developed or undeveloped? Bone density will decline again as the animal ages, especially if its work load decreases - so if (e.g. as I'm working on the limited figures quoted here) 85% maximal bone density isn't sufficient to back a youngster, how is it ok to hack a veteran with a similar bone density?

Ultimately, bone is a dynamic tissue - it doesn't just develop uniformly regardless of what you're doing with the horse.

Bone density is such a variable phenomenon - affected so greatly by the stress / strain acting on bone - that it is possible that the studies on which your editorial is based were compounded by the fact that a six year old (plus) horse will often be in greater levels of work than a five year old or younger.


With regard to the OP - I backed mine at three and a bit, turned him away, rode more at four, turned away and brought him back at five. I wouldn't back a two year old, but I don't see the harm in backing at 3, if your horse seems mature enough to handle it.


(Most of what I'm rambling about above is just a reaction to what I perceive to be sloppy use of science to attempt to validify a point of view, which may or may not be right. I'm not going to say the point of view is wrong, but the science backing it up isn't defensible on the information given...)
 
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