Backing.

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jenee.gee

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KWPN Dressage bred horse backed last year at 3-4 would not let anyone get on him on return to yard.Left until this Feb, sent away again and still will not anyone mount. Appears to panic/explode Back ex -rayed and full physio check. Is it his brain? Looking at euthanasia unless problem can be solved. Kind to handle and accepts tack.
Suggestions
 
Send to a different trainer with a different approach as what you are currently doing doesn't seem to be working for him.
 
How is he to tack up? Is he ok or does he move away from tack?

How is he if you stand next to him on a chair? Or if he's stood next to a mounting block?

I would say something has frightened or startled him that hasn't been relayed to you. Did the person backing get a leg up? Some ex race horses don't like being mounted the usual way as it's not what they are accustomed to.
My own youngster would literally freak out in his stable when he first saw me ride my others into the barn - I think it blew his mind how the hell I was suddenly 1) so big, and 2) on a horses back!! So I did a lot of ride and lead with him so he realised it was ok, he was easy to back after ths btw.
I would have someone like Michael Peace come to you to look at the problem. Good luck
 
It's not by Pro Set by any chance is it? I have a number of friends who own pro set horses who are notoriously bad when it comes to mounting.

If not then I agree change trainer - he needs a different approach he may be lacking confidence. Lots of de sensitising we had a pony who you couldn't even stand on the mounting block next to, we spent 6 weeks de sensitising this included bouncing a swiss ball around him, on him, underneath him. The slowly standing on small steps gently resting an arm on the saddle and then proceeding to leaning over with more and more weight each time. finally it clicked and he accepted that everything was OK now he has gone on to compete at the PC Champs and is ridden by a young girl with no problems.
 
Maybe send the horse away to someone like Dave Stewart who is more NH orientated.

If he is good to do in all other respects I'm sure you will be able to work through this. Good luck. :)
 
Can you mount and ride another horse whilst leading your youngster. I find they learn a lot by example. I would be standing the lead horse up to a mounting block with the youngster as close as possible. Then hack out, keeping him as tight and alongside you as possible. I find that my youngsters are much more accustomed to the sight of a rider towering over them if started this way.
I had a big young horse that took three months to mount as he had had a bad experience with somebody else, and would buck himself onto the ground. I spent ages banging the saddle, and standing up to him on a straw bale, and then a set of steps as he was 17 hands. It will take time and patience, but my horse turned out to be a really good horse. The sad thing is, that its much harder to fix a problem like this where enough care wasn't taken.
 
I'd also agree you need another opinion.

I wouldn't necessity rule out a problem though - it's a fallacy that every tricky horse eventually turns into a perfectly acceptable member of society. I have to say I've known a fair number of difficult horses that got backed and going then turned out to have a serious underlying health issues, sometimes quite far after the fact.

I'm not generally of the school that every problem is physical in origin or means the horse can't work. But it's always entertaining to me that if a ridden horse has a problem it's usually assumed to be something unrelated to work, yet people rarely think a horse might come with a problem. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Get a second opinion
 
Long story short they have done a bad job backing
Which is slightly worrying considering they are calling themselves professionals

It worries me how many badly broken horses there are, breaking is the start of a horses future
Sadly its harder to re teach things but by no means impossible :)
 
Fine to tack up and lunge with saddle. Can stand on crate to plait etc. Used to lean over and walk in yard a little. Similar continued after return but in new surroundings he freaked . Leaps off/away. Nothing suitable to lead him from sadly.but sees ridden horses all time.Back to basics at new trainer but after 5 weeks she feels not making any progress. Even mild sedation not helping - explodes unpredictably. Who is Michael?
Did try Ardell but terrified first time when walked in school without someone holding head, went into panic bolt.still on lunge rein.So sad as has good dressage breeding and wonderful paces kind to handle on ground does not kick or bite in field. but not a brain dead horse. Bought at two from breeder in Scotland. Have had young stock before, backed with no problems.
 
Was a top trainer/rider/importer/breeder. He was ridden by both my daughters at trainers before he came back but could not afford to leave him there any longer to get him really established.
 
So he went wrong when he returned to your yard from his Initial backing?

Where are you based? It would be a real shame to PTS a young horse who has just been messed up, the trouble is there wont be a quick fix to your problem & only the right work & consistency in that work will get him right.
I say this from experience of rebacking "problem horses" & backing very sharp youngsters.
 
I would google NH practitioners such as Michael Peace, Richard Maxwell or Jason Webb depending on your location.

I am not a fan of those NH people that chase a horse in a round pen for 20 mins for so called join up. The ones I've mentioned above use good old fashioned horsemanship, have have good reputations. Probably charge the earth mind!!
 
Is the horse insured?

And before everyone lectures me about all the difficult horses that come right, my point is that if there IS something wrong do you really want to pour money into the horse before you find that out? A very good person will get him backed and going, even if there is a problem, but if two good professionals with experience and success with tricky horses are already concerned then I don't see how people who have never seen the horse are better placed to judge the situation.

I know more than one horse that has come out of one of the programs above, ridable, and then backslid at home and been found to have a degenerative or chronic issue. I've started a tricky horse that turned out to have a neck fracture, another with a tumor, one from a family of horses that turned out to be mad and never amounted to anything. I'm not trying to be alarmist, just pointing out that it's simply not true every young horse is a clean slate. Look how many horses get bred in the big horse producing nations vs how many get to competition. Things happen. In some ways the fact that he is easy in every other way makes me wonder more, not less.

It may very well be that you find nothing (and/or there is nothing to find) and then you have to decide how much more you want to sink into the horse, especially if he is to be a mount for your daughters.

When they rode him there was everything okay? They got on him cold, off a block without any tension? Did they use their own tack? Have you followed the same management and routine since the horse came home? What triggers the behaviour? What variables have you explored?

Your other option, as everyone has said, is to send him to one of the cowboys (which is not a slur, btw) who have the time, facilities, skill and help to do really tricky horses and then have your daughters go to ride the horse regularly before he returns home.
 
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Yes insured but not for behavioural problems . Head has not been scanned just spine. Reluctant to give away or loan as we know how some of the stories end. Which is why euthanasia is on the cards. We are all too old and sensible to want to ride a time bomb!Do I bring him home for stay of execution. Same routine was followed, lunged on two reins, leant over, then mounted from chair/block kept on lunge rein initially. This initially was after trainer had ridden. If cash had not run out may have had better outcome.
Thanks to all who are sending tips or suggestions.
By Welt Hit (Weltmeyer) are these known to be a problem.
He is identical to his sire and very much resembles a 'blood horse' ie: not brain dead to his surroundings.
 
Not sure where you are based, but Jason Webb would be a good man to send to. Should be able to tell you if its a physical problem, or if its behavioral due to bad experience.

I sent my horse to him to re-back as a 4yo after a fall whilst trying to mount (horse flipped out while I was half on and wouldn't let me near him after that). I'd bought the horse as a "just backed" through a yard.

Jason said it was behavioral, the horse was reliving a bad experience he'd had before. I didn't really believe him, just assumed i'd messed up this lovely youngster myself. Anyway yrs later, through the powers of the H&H forum, i tracked down his first owner. She'd sent him away to be "professionally backed", got him home, went to mount and he flipped out while she was half on, she came off and shattered her knee and was given a 50/50 chance of walking again.
 
jenee.gee said:
Yes insured but not for behavioural problems . Head has not been scanned just spine. Reluctant to give away or loan as we know how some of the stories end. Which is why euthanasia is on the cards. We are all too old and sensible to want to ride a time bomb!Do I bring him home for stay of execution. Same routine was followed, lunged on two reins, leant over, then mounted from chair/block kept on lunge rein initially. This initially was after trainer had ridden. If cash had not run out may have had better outcome.
Thanks to all who are sending tips or suggestions.
By Welt Hit (Weltmeyer) are these known to be a problem.
He is identical to his sire and very much resembles a 'blood horse' ie: not brain dead to his surroundings.
Click to expand...

I don't think you can insure for behaviour! I meant would you be able afford to work the horse up with a specialist performance vet. I realise your own vet has already seen the horse but what tests were done?

You can't give away or loan if he's as bad as you say!! What if he hurts someone!??!

But they never got on him cold, without longeing or having him ridden first?

When I asked if the same routine was followed at home, I literally meant the same - saddle, amount of work, feed, turnout etc.

Did the first trainer have trouble? At what point and under what circumstances? Or did the trouble start at home?

I don't think Welt Hit are known to be a particular problem, at least in context. They are certainly normally sharp-ish dressage types though, which isn't a surprise.

The problem is, whatever the cause, the horse has now had multiple bad experiences (there was a recent thread on using dummies and exactly this type of situation was discussed) st a very fragile time in his education. Rewinding the clock is not possible and there is unlikely to be a quick and easy solution, as others have said. When you say funds have run out, do you mean you cannot afford to have any more professional assessment or training? That does rather limit the options...
 
He went away as we realised he was too sharp for us,(Too old too) to someone with knowledge and facilities and staff. Training would have been interrupted as weather was floods, snow, ice, gales etc. Then was found upside down with leg through bars of inside stable - had to be cut out but was sensible and did not struggle so leg not broken. Came home for 7 weeks to recover. He was treated for ulcers last summer and just had a bit of lunging until winter meant they have been off fields. Daily lunging through winter until he went away. Lots of good suggestions. Have been in horses for forty years with assorted equines from 10 months up. Only ever sold three (grown out of) and rest died with us. One Rider Inter11. so not totally ignorant. Just despairing.
 
Sorry, I wasn't saying you were ignorant. Part of my remit is 'problems' and it often involves asking lots of question, even the ones that seem obvious. The answers might be germane, they might not - all that really matters is what happens going forward - but it's worth going through the process if you're stumped. Of course the best is to assess the horse in person but that's tricky on the internet. I also cannot tell you how many times I've asked some version of 'when did the problem start' only to get variations on the answers.

How far along was he in the training when he got cast? When you say 'recover', from what? At what point in his training was he diagnosed with ulcers and what prompted investigation? Has he been recently reassessed?
 
I'd agree with TS and say get the horse fully checked out by the vet, including for ulcers. I would be highly suspicious of a youngster that has ulcers, it can be a cause from long term pain from another problem
 
I too would be getting a work up from a good equine vet .
My bet would be something is hurting .
The ulcers would suggest chronic pain as well.
If you have had your own vet check him already I would get a pair of completely fresh eyes to do it .
 
Thank you all for your comments. Sadly being put down on Tuesday.
Michael Peace just too expensive. Has already had thousands spent on vets, treatment and backing. This elderly owners funds have run out. Dreams
have turned into a nightmare.
Feeling awful.
 
To be really honest, I don't know what anyone can suggest. If getting another medical opinion is out and so is sending the horse to someone else to assess work with, then you are left with what you can do yourself and, as you rightly say, there are substantial risks involved. You could just turn the horse away properly in a large area with other horses and minimal interference. Very old school but sometimes it did the job.

I'm still curious why the horse came home after the cast incident but you say he didn't sustain any injury, despite being hung up. Also curious as to when in the process the problems first surfaced. And ditto re saddle, feed, daily regime etc. Don't underestimate how much those things can impact a young, sensitive horse.
 
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