Bad horses or Bad owners

[Circe]

I think the majority of bad horses are man made. Sharp horses that need compassionate handling, the ones that need a firm hand, the ones that are in pain which isn't recognised.
I also think that a small percentage are possibly born "bad", the same as some people are born "bad". Sociopathic or psychopathic personnalities... are they man made or genetic?
The old nature vs nurture debate?
Kx

 

[brigantia]

I believe most "bad" horses were made that way by incompetent or ignorant humans.

But I've seen a few horses, ones with very competent owners, who were "crazy," like a mentally ill person might be. This is usually down to organic factors like illness, chronic pain, etc. The mare we had in our field would double barrel humans walking through the field who weren't even trying to catch her or interfere with her. She also windsucked and colicked a lot and finally died of colic. So she was "ill" both physically and possibly mentally and this made her very very difficult and sometimes dangerous. She could also be a total sweetheart and won rosettes in dressage.

 

[Ladydragon]

I don't believe you get bad horses, just like I don't believe you get bad people.
<snip>
And that's my 2 cents worth
Sorry for the hippiness, I do apologize

lol... My area is youth justice and behaviour analysis... So I'm a bit fluffy and have a fair amount of 'hippiness' myself when it comes to trying to help the little blighters overcome whatever hand fate dealt them in the way of family and other experiences...

But it's the old nature vs nurture argument... Some kids do come from perfectly normal and supportive backgrounds with no detrimental triggers... There is no 'excuse' or 'reason' for their behaviour - they just are... At the extreme, psychopath vs sociopath arguments are similar... I think it's the same with every animal - be it genetic, undiagnosed medical issues or just there... Not every aggressive dog can be excused by bad handling, breeding or a behaviour altering condition...

And yes, I do agree, some experiences can not be undone or overcome - pretty much ruining the potential that existed at birth... There are windows of opportunity in various learning - if they are missed it's difficult if not impossible to catch up...

 

[MagicMelon]

I'm yet to see a horse who was born bad. Its very difficult for anyone to say that you do get ones who are bad, no matter what because you dont know what human contact that said horse has had in its past. I personally believe most problems are man-made, obviously horses are all different so they'll take to different situations differently - the result depends how that person dealing with the horse deals with that situation. If they do it badly, you have a problem on your hands.

 

[Spring Feather]

I'm yet to see a horse who was born bad. Its very difficult for anyone to say that you do get ones who are bad, no matter what because you dont know what human contact that said horse has had in its past.

You do if you bred it and I think this is where the myth that all horses are born good comes from. People who buy horses that they had no interaction with from the moment they were born and all through that horse's life are often quick to apportion blame to another human being for why the horse is the way the horse is. I haven't bred a "bad" foal but then I don't own a bad mare and I always go for stallions known for good temperaments. However my foals do all have very individual and unique characters. All of my foals are born in the same place, they're all brought up in the same manner but they don't all turn out alike. I have one foal, out of a whole bunch right now who is quite simply a miserable git. He's moody and aloof. Another foal stands out as being very playful and is always happy and joyful. Another is what might be classed as naughty, I'd say more inquisitive though. So nature/nurture may help a young horse go down a certain path but nature wins over every time in my opinion.

I personally believe most problems are man-made, obviously horses are all different so they'll take to different situations differently - the result depends how that person dealing with the horse deals with that situation. If they do it badly, you have a problem on your hands.

I believe some are but not all. I do agree that incompetent people can do terrible damage to a horse however I also think that depending on the nature of the horse this can be rectified eventually with fair and correct handling.

On the whole I agree with almost everything Tally Ho! has said

 

[Nollaig Shona]

I've known horses with lovely owners that were horrible beasts, and known lovely horses with beastly owners (said she going all Jill And Her Ponies)

Same goes for humans. Nice parents/horrible kids, horrible parents/nice kids.

I'm one of those cynics who does believe that people (and animals) can be born "bad".

 

[team barney]

Some horses are made bad, the rebel often as a result of abusive treatment.

Some horses are born difficult and need extremely competent handling to remain 'good natured' or 'confident'.

Some horses are born bad, those who believe otherwise are very fortunate that they have never meet one of the few horses that are genuinely born bad.

Some horses suffer from psychological problems/mental issues.

 

[Flame_]

Good and bad are the wrong descriptions. There are definitely useful and useless horses. Biddable and awkward horses. Horses who enjoy work and horses who would rather skive off. They are all different, like people.

 

[C&C]

I believe most problem horses are man made, but occasionally you do get the odd horse that is just a bad un!

I have been reading Monty Roberts - The man who listens to horses, even he said that some, albeit very few, horses cannot be helped.

Tiz a very good read as well for anyone interested

 

[wizbit]

Why can't people just accept that there are some **** horses out there?

Hell, I've known a few!

Also, why can't some people accept that if they are having a bad time, then it could well be because they ahve the WRONG horse - nothing to do with temperament... but a bad match.

The same reason you can't accept there aren't!
You sound very het up, is it neccessary to use swear words? or do you have a limited vocab. maybe you should calm down. Everyone is entitled to an opinion so there's no need to get irate

 

[tallyho!]

The same reason you can't accept there aren't!
You sound very het up, is it neccessary to use swear words? or do you have a limited vocab. maybe you should calm down. Everyone is entitled to an opinion so there's no need to get irate

ROLF

Horses are ALL bad. They do nothing but eat and crap and have no souls. Most of them look like leggy donkeys and taste like pickled gherkins.

 

[ebonyallen]

There is no such thing as a bad horse, but there are many bad owners I am afraid to say.

 

[foxy1]

I don't believe there are any bad horses, just misunderstood ones.

 

[skint1]

I believe that some horses naturally have a more questioning/challenging nature than others and the wrong owner, no matter how well meaning, can ruin them either temporarily (til someone who knows what they're doing comes along) or permanently. Some are also more tolerant of ineptitude than others, but again I think it takes a human to push them into the realms of "bad"

 

[angelish]

i think most horses are made bad by bad horsmanship but there are a few out there who are born down right evil

 

[rockysmum]

I believe most horsey problems are caused by incorrect handling at some point. However some horses are just born nasty.

The two that stick in my mind belonged to some people who lived in our village. They were ex travellers who had made money, bought a business and a nice house. They decided to go back to their roots and bought a couple of just weaned standardbreds. These foals had not been ill treated and never were, even though they were nasty from the first day. I kept my horse next door and I saw how they were handled. They were broken to harness with the intention of racing, from what I saw this was non by a non traveller who did a decent job, considering their very dodgy temperaments.

The gelding raced and did quite well, the mare was too bad to risk. These animals would reach over stable doors to grab people with their teeth, were impossible to go into the stable with. The gelding ended up in a field next to my horse and jumped in and tried to kill him, I believe he would have done if mine had not jumped out and run for his stable.

The owners were stupid and decided to breed from the mare, she tried to kill her foal and it was only just saved but had some very nasty injuries.

These two were both by the same stallion and apparently most of his offspring were like this.

Truly scary stuff as they would attack for no apparent reason and with no warning.

 

[fburton]

Have you never observed a herd of horses?

I've spent quite a lot of time doing that.

There's is always the herd witch/ass!

Not always. I've seen some pretty peaceful groups of horses where there wasn't an obvious bully. A bully tends to stand out and get noticed! Also, just because a horse bullies other horses, doesn't necessarily mean they will show the same behaviours towards humans, though they may benefit from firmer or more confident or tactful handling.

no, I'm sorry but You are humanising horses in thinking they are all benevolent creatures. My arse.

Horses can be just as nasty as some humans and I have seen a few nasty ones in my time.

Aren't you humanizing horses yourself by saying that they can be as nasty as humans? Yes, some horses can be aggressive and bullying (what I would call inappropriately aggressive) - but they are just being horses. They are neither benevolent nor malevolent in any moral sense; they aren't kind or compassionate, scheming or spiteful in the way humans are.

Certainly, some horses are born with an aggressive or 'awkward' streak, but I would say the vast majority of 'bad' horses are made that way by human (mis)handling.

 

[tallyho!]

yeah whatever.

 

[Fantasy_World]

Absolutely no way can you say a bad horse is because of a bad owner!!! There's some horrors out there!

How naive!!!

I believe a good horse can be spoiled by a humans, and a bad horse can be improved.

However, there are some bad horses born out there, a good owner would do the right thing and a bad owner would sell it on!!

mmm I don't quite agree somehow.
I think that most bad horses are man made from the minute the horse is born, raised and trained.
Some horses could be described as bad or nasty or anti social due to being in pain or suffering with an affliction which can make them so, ie a tumour of the brain.
As for any others which are essentially born and predisposed to be described as nasty at some point in their life are again man made I'm afraid.
Whether the horse has been bred by artificial isemination, or by having mare covered in stable or letting it run loose in a field, MAN still has had an influence in that horse or pony's breeding. Any horse with a questionable temperament should not really be bred from imo in case those traits are passed down into offspring.
Now because man has an influence in every horse or pony which ends up in the equestrian industry then I firmly believe they are also the root to every bad horse in that industry!

 

[Kenzo]

Define a 'bad horse'?

 

[tallyho!]

Yes correct! Horses are man-made the moment they are born into captivity like you say - perfect little angels until the moment you lay a finger on them.

Then why are there so many good ones if humans spoil them so?

Anyone who breeds foals year on year will happily tell you there are some with great personalities and some which have not so great ones. Those ones are more likely to be untrainable, difficult (which is bad in terms of horse-human relations and a life of captivity) and become problems. They still get sold on because breeding is a business like any other. Then they get sold on again, because of this "attitude problem" and then owners get blamed for spoiling horses etc etc. Downward we go on the spiral which will eventually lead to the horses demise. If you think back, the original breeder probably should not have sold it on with such an UNSUITABLE temperament for a riding horse. That said, they could learn and improve although some don't as we see so many times.

So you see, you can have "bad" horses. I'm not saying they are born with evil in their veins, I'm saying that they are born with UNSUITABLE characteristics. Everybody seems to have translated this as if I am saying horses are evil creatures which is completely ridiculous and mean actually.

Luckily, the majority of responsible breeders will breed for temperament as well as type and carefully select lineages and so have have nice biddable animals. That's not to say, some UNSUITABLE owner will buy it and spoil it....

My point is: that you can have a "bad" (perhaps it should read UNSUITABLE) horse to start with.

And actually, yes, some real horrors!

 

[Kenzo]

One person’s idea of a bad horse could be what another person would describe as a misunderstood horse.

Horses are more intelligent than a lot of people give them credit for, the older they are the wiser they become, all with individual characters which in turn will process thoughts differently to a certain degree, as far as equine intelligence goes that is, which is why selective breeding is big business, a horses physical capabilities is nothing unless there is good mental attitude behind it.

I think it’s more a case of sensitive horses that struggle to adapt to new challangnig situations (be it while growing up/during training/or physically) which are then made into ‘bad uns’ by humans.

Some horses are just not cut out for what every owner/trainer would like them to do or be (despite the best handling and training for example) and if you don’t accept that, you’re going to get problems when you’re dealing with half of tone of animal along with the added pressure of the emotions that human beings feel and display, which a horse will pick up on.

Very intersting thread.

 

[Marydoll]

lol... My area is youth justice and behaviour analysis... So I'm a bit fluffy and have a fair amount of 'hippiness' myself when it comes to trying to help the little blighters overcome whatever hand fate dealt them in the way of family and other experiences...

But it's the old nature vs nurture argument... Some kids do come from perfectly normal and supportive backgrounds with no detrimental triggers... There is no 'excuse' or 'reason' for their behaviour - they just are... At the extreme, psychopath vs sociopath arguments are similar... I think it's the same with every animal - be it genetic, undiagnosed medical issues or just there... Not every aggressive dog can be excused by bad handling, breeding or a behaviour altering condition...

And yes, I do agree, some experiences can not be undone or overcome - pretty much ruining the potential that existed at birth... There are windows of opportunity in various learning - if they are missed it's difficult if not impossible to catch up...

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement and do believe that it can be equated horses as well