Bad news for my lovely boy...

[Bikerchickone]

Finally heard back from my vet after him having to chase the scanning vets for clarification on something and it's really bad news for us. It seems my wonderful horse of a lifetime has navicular affecting the back of both fronts and also collateral ligament damage to the front of them. So, problem is that the treatment for one is the opposite to the treatment of the other.

His wedges are now off and he's back in his natural balance shoes with no noticeable difference to how he moves/stands. He's not hopping lame at all, maybe 1/10 if you were being picky and I've been told that he should be rested (field rather than box because we also have some arthritis issues) for 6 months and then he should be ok to be turned out as a 4 footed lawn mower. ;'(

He's almost 13 and is the nicest most well mannered/behaved ride in the world, so willing, easy going etc. He loves his hacking and thoroughly enjoys his work, is a real sponge for new stuff.

Does anyone know why inflammation of the collateral ligaments should need so long resting? I literally hacked him out for an hour and a half of roadwork the day before the scan with a friend and he was fine, friend even commented on how forward going he was and how much he seemed to be enjoying himself!

This all started because he toe points and vet was convinced about navicular but I didn't want to leave wedges on without being sure. There's no question about him going anywhere regardless of lawn mower status or not and I'm sure it's wrong of me to be so upset about not riding him but I'm not a hugely confident rider and I trust him totally and he's so wonderful to ride

I even had the saddler the day after the scan who confirmed the saddle was wrong and would have caused the back issues my osteo has been treating him for so I'd made arrangements to order new saddle too. It's such a long story but I really thought his back issues had caused the toe pointing and that it wasn't so much his feet. He felt amazing after last osteo visit which is why we upped the work, he'd gone downhill again which makes sense after saddler came out. Osteo has been out and sorted his back again.

I don't know what to do or where to go from here. How clear are the MRI scans about inflammation of ligaments? Could it just be how he is? His feet are so huge that they said image quality was compromised anyway. Vet firmly believes all the problems are in his feet and nothing to do with his back and he's the expert, not me.

Rockley has been suggested by many helpful forumites and I'm hopefully going to check it out and meet Nic next week, but don't know when a space may be available, or if it's possible it might make him worse at all.

For now, vet is going to medicate the coffin joint on both fronts later in the week and he's going to have a week coming in during the day and out at night, then he'll be on 24/7 turnout but not work for potentially 6 months. Stupidly I didn't ask vet what he wa hoping to acheive by medicating joint so if anyone has any ideas I'd be grateful.

Sorry it's so long but if anyone has any ideas, suggestions etc other than bawling my eyes out regularly because I don't know what to do they would be much appreciated. I've had this boy more than 10 years, he's part of my family and I need to do the right thing by him.

Jaffa Cakes and ot chocolate if you got this far.

 

[*hic*]

So sorry to hear this, have messaged you.

 

[AshTay]

No advice but lots of sympathy. I felt devastated when I realised that my pony would never be rideable again and I still can't bring myself to sell his saddles as that would be finally admitting that I'd never be on board my horse of a lifetime again. I even cried when I loaned someone his bit!

Do you know if he's ever likely to be ok for light hacking?

 

[Bikerchickone]

No advice but lots of sympathy. I felt devastated when I realised that my pony would never be rideable again and I still can't bring myself to sell his saddles as that would be finally admitting that I'd never be on board my horse of a lifetime again. I even cried when I loaned someone his bit!

Do you know if he's ever likely to be ok for light hacking?

At the moment I think it's deemed unlikely, but I really hope so. Understand exactly what you mean about the saddles, I can't bring myself to cancel the saddler coming out to fit my boy with a new one! It's only money and I 'might' need it. Hubby not impressed but I don't seem able to be rational about this. Almost like I'm giving up on him if I don't get him a saddle that fits.

So confusing, and so sorry to hear about your pony, never realised how upsetting the thought of never plodding the lanes with my boy again would be.

 

[Marydoll]

Sorry to hear about your boy, nothing useful to say except im thinking of you.
Speak to some of the barefoot taliban on here i know they have differing views on the traditional treatment of navicular not sure about the ligament damage though.
Again reLly sad to hear about your lad

 

[ester]

aww sorry that you are having a rubbish time with it, it's horrid when you just want to do the best by them and you realise how much you will miss taking them out (I thought this might be the case with mine a few months back). don't forget that if his feet aren't right this could well be what is affecting his back so that is a bit of a red herring so to speak.

Try not to worry too much/make any decisions until you have spoken to Nic next week, I emailed her a few months ago as my boys lameness was foot orientated and she seemed very nice then, and helpful.

 

[maggiesmum]

Firstly i'm sorry you're having a rotten time.

Secondly - conventional treatment for the 2 problems might oppose each other but the barefoot route is the same for either problem. Do lots of reading and research so you can get answers to all your worries when you see Nic, she's lovely and very knowledgeable.

I know people groan when the barefoot taliban start jumping up and down and telling you we have the magic cure but its because most of us have been where you are now, we've felt how you feel and yet now have fully functional horses again despite our vets telling us it would never happen.
Have hope and get armed with information at 13 he's got years and years left in him yet.

 

[Oberon]

You are looking at this as though this is the end.

That's soooooo 20th Century thinking.

Navicular and collateral ligament damage are Nic Barker's bread and butter.

The treatment for both as far as barefooters are concerned are the same - take the damn shoes off and let the hoof balance and heal - inside and outside. If you fix the hoof - the ligament will follow.

If you don't want to/can't send him to Rockley, you CAN do it all at home. It's just a bit more scary and you'll need to find someone very good to support you

I know today has been a bad day - but I promise you it's not the end. There are many horses all over the world who have beaten worse.

 

[Bikerchickone]

Thank you both, really appreciate the comments.

 

[Bikerchickone]

You are looking at this as though this is the end.

That's soooooo 20th Century thinking.

Navicular and collateral ligament damage are Nic Barker's bread and butter.

The treatment for both as far as barefooters are concerned are the same - take the damn shoes off and let the hoof balance and heal - inside and outside. If you fix the hoof - the ligament will follow.

If you don't want to/can't send him to Rockley, you CAN do it all at home. It's just a bit more scary and you'll need to find someone very good to support you

I know today has been a bad day - but I promise you it's not the end. There are many horses all over the world who have beaten worse.

Ah Oberon, thank you! Was hoping you would comment, having seen some of your other posts. The part about the treatment being the same barefoot has eased my mind somewhat as I was thinking I wouldn't be able to do Rockley or anything like it until after 6 minths rest, that also helps with understanding why it's so long! If the hoof is wrong it's gonna take forever I suppose

I have some (shod) pictures of his feet on my profile and would be very grateful if you would tell me what you think of them, please? Cheeky I know, but if you don't ask the answer's always going to be no He's got pretty tough and quick growing feet anyway, broke a farriers trimmers once because the farrier had to leave him a week over on that occasion so I'm hoping that'll help him.

Really appreciate the comments.

 

[Bikerchickone]

Firstly i'm sorry you're having a rotten time.

Secondly - conventional treatment for the 2 problems might oppose each other but the barefoot route is the same for either problem. Do lots of reading and research so you can get answers to all your worries when you see Nic, she's lovely and very knowledgeable.

I know people groan when the barefoot taliban start jumping up and down and telling you we have the magic cure but its because most of us have been where you are now, we've felt how you feel and yet now have fully functional horses again despite our vets telling us it would never happen.
Have hope and get armed with information at 13 he's got years and years left in him yet.

Thank you Maggiesmum, I can't wait to get down and see Nic, which reminds me I'd better let her know I'm coming as booked b&b but haven't confirmed with her yet!! Mind definitely on other things right now!

Thank you so much. Love this forum, didn't think anything would make me feel better today, other than the vet calling back to say they'd made a huge mistake and he was fine.

 

[Marydoll]

This all sounds really positive bikerchickone, i read all the barefoot posts with interest, but im still sitting on the fence at the moment.
Its good there are some very knowledgable folks on here to pick their brains.

 

[Oberon]

Just read this article by Dr Bowker - it says it all really. Dude is a visionary.
http://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/BarefootList/BowkerPhysiologicalTrim.html

Dom's heels will be contracted. Digital cushion will be weak. Lateral cartilages will be puny. Possibly central sulcus infection.

These add up to a horse that can't land on his heels reliably (like they are supposed to). They land toe first and it puts a strain on the hoof, P3, DDFT, impar ligament, collateral liagments and navicular bone. After years - something eventually 'gives'.

Traditional treatments lend to supporting the back part of the hoof.

BF wants to develop it.

How long this takes depend on many factors. Think up to a year for full work. But you can see improvements straight away (like Schoko http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html) or after weeks/months.

The difference is that you will see IMPROVEMENTS. He will get better and stronger - the other option is to spend money on treatments that will try and buy you a bit more time.

No matter what problem you have - the BF world the treatment is pretty much the same;

Diet
Stimulation
Trim

You'll have to look at any lurking thrush in your case too.

 

[Bikerchickone]

Just read this article by Dr Bowker - it says it all really. Dude is a visionary.
http://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/BarefootList/BowkerPhysiologicalTrim.html

Dom's heels will be contracted. Digital cushion will be weak. Lateral cartilages will be puny. Possibly central sulcus infection.

These add up to a horse that can't land on his heels reliably (like they are supposed to). They land toe first and it puts a strain on the hoof, P3, DDFT, impar ligament, collateral liagments and navicular bone. After years - something eventually 'gives'.

Traditional treatments lend to supporting the back part of the hoof.

BF wants to develop it.

How long this takes depend on many factors. Think up to a year for full work. But you can see improvements straight away (like Schoko http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html) or after weeks/months.

The difference is that you will see IMPROVEMENTS. He will get better and stronger - the other option is to spend money on treatments that will try and buy you a bit more time.

No matter what problem you have - the BF world the treatment is pretty much the same;

Diet
Stimulation
Trim

You'll have to look at any lurking thrush in your case too.

Thanks Oberon

I don't think we have any thrush but I've been treating him with Field Paste just in case. I know they look a bit iffy in those pics but he'd just come in from a very sticky muddy field

I'm going to go and have a read of those articles, thank you

 

[Oberon]

It can develop in the deep slit of a contracted frog's sulcus.

My Arab suffered for 13 years - no one mentioned it until my first UKNHCP trimmer.

Never any smell - just tender when I ran a hoofpick through the sulcus.

I just thought the flinching was one of his quirks - how stupid was I

As soon as the sulcus was treated, the heels and frog sprang open over the course of a few weeks. Sudocrem covered rags stuffed down there made all the difference to him!

Some horses start landing on their toes and eventually get diagnosed with navicular, then all the treatments and eventually PTS - when it was simple sulcus thrush that started the heel pain in the first place

 

[Goldenstar]

OP I am sorry to hear your sad news it's awful and I understand totally about the saddle .
I hope your trip to Rockley helps you to come to a decision and what ever you decide your horse is lucky to belong to someone who loves him.
Ignore the OH they hate this sort of thing I always think a mixture of jealously and the fact you are upset and they cant take the problem away ( alpha male kill the problem tedancies )
Big hug from here.

 

[ThePony]

You are looking at this as though this is the end.

That's soooooo 20th Century thinking.

Navicular and collateral ligament damage are Nic Barker's bread and butter.

The treatment for both as far as barefooters are concerned are the same - take the damn shoes off and let the hoof balance and heal - inside and outside. If you fix the hoof - the ligament will follow.

If you don't want to/can't send him to Rockley, you CAN do it all at home. It's just a bit more scary and you'll need to find someone very good to support you

I know today has been a bad day - but I promise you it's not the end. There are many horses all over the world who have beaten worse.

Can only echo this. Please don't think of this as the end. The barefoot route helps the feet to help themselves and strengthen. The ability of the horse to grow the feet it needs should never be underestimated, they just need to be given a chance.
Keep us updated with your trip to Rockley, I think you will feel enormously relieved after you have had a chat with Nic!

 

[Bikerchickone]

Huge thank yous to everybody who has posted, you've all been so supportive and loads of useful information too.

I have just had a chat with Nic and am feeling much more positive about things. There are no guarantees but as with anything sometimes you can try something new and different, take a chance maybe and have it pay off.

I'm hoping that's going to happen here. I'm still reading through all the articles suggested and some more from old threads on here as I'm one of those people who likes to understand everything and has far too much free time on her hands too

Really looking forward to meeting Nic, and if anyone else reading this is going through anything similar I'd suggest they speak to her too, it wasn't a short call as I had lots of questions and she very patiently answered all of them in a way that made complete sense to me.

Once again thank you all for making me feel a better about everything, I was really down this afternoon and now I'm getting my teeth stuck into a plan of action, always feels better to do rather than sit on my hands!

 

[Tamba]

You are looking at this as though this is the end.

That's soooooo 20th Century thinking.

Navicular and collateral ligament damage are Nic Barker's bread and butter.

The treatment for both as far as barefooters are concerned are the same - take the damn shoes off and let the hoof balance and heal - inside and outside. If you fix the hoof - the ligament will follow.

If you don't want to/can't send him to Rockley, you CAN do it all at home. It's just a bit more scary and you'll need to find someone very good to support you


TOTALLY, AGREE, DO NOT give up yet, please, there is still plenty of chance it might come good, dont give up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THINK POSITIVE, take careX

 

[Fantasy_World]

I can only offer my sympathies on this bad news but I hope you can bring your horse back. Please try to think positively on this though and don't give up hope.
I did see you mention that you have a saddle fitter due out, is this to fit a new saddle or one that you have already bought?
My reason for asking is because if your boy is going to be out of work for at least 6 months then a saddle that fits him nicely now, may not do so 6 months or further down the line.
Sorry if you think that is a bit harsh, not trying to be, just thinking that you could use that money to fund treatment which may potentially enable your horse to be ridden again rather than buy a saddle now that will most likely need to be refitted again if that makes sense.
Good luck and I wish your boy a speedy recovery and hope he comes back sound again x

 

[Tamba]

It can develop in the deep slit of a contracted frog's sulcus.

My Arab suffered for 13 years - no one mentioned it until my first UKNHCP trimmer.

Never any smell - just tender when I ran a hoofpick through the sulcus.

I just thought the flinching was one of his quirks - how stupid was I

As soon as the sulcus was treated, the heels and frog sprang open over the course of a few weeks. Sudocrem covered rags stuffed down there made all the difference to him!

Some horses start landing on their toes and eventually get diagnosed with navicular, then all the treatments and eventually PTS - when it was simple sulcus thrush that started the heel pain in the first place

OUTRAGEOUS>>>>>>>OUTRAGEOUS,, sorry, please ignore me, but I have one EXACTLY like this, Thrush, thrush, thrush, have to soak his foot in water for 20 mins a day, massive difference..

 

[Tamba]

I can only offer my sympathies on this bad news but I hope you can bring your horse back. Please try to think positively on this though and don't give up hope.
I did see you mention that you have a saddle fitter due out, is this to fit a new saddle or one that you have already bought?
My reason for asking is because if your boy is going to be out of work for at least 6 months then a saddle that fits him nicely now, may not do so 6 months or further down the line.
Sorry if you think that is a bit harsh, not trying to be, just thinking that you could use that money to fund treatment which may potentially enable your horse to be ridden again rather than buy a saddle now that will most likely need to be refitted again if that makes sense.
Good luck and I wish your boy a speedy recovery and hope he comes back sound again x

THIS ^^^^, very logical X

 

[china]

will pm you.

 

[cptrayes]

bikerchickone the horse I rehabbed barefoot with "incurable" navicular was sound at 3 months, won his class in his National breed championships at a year and hunted with his new owner at 18 months, and has been in full work including jumping for approaching 2 years this spring.

I know it's a devastating diagnosis but your vet is quite likely to be wrong about your horse's future or about him needing 6 months rest. You are already contacting Rockley so I wrote this only to cheer you up a bit.

 

[Bikerchickone]

[


TOTALLY, AGREE, DO NOT give up yet, please, there is still plenty of chance it might come good, dont give up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THINK POSITIVE, take careX

Thank you Tamba, I'm definitely not giving up just yet!!

I can only offer my sympathies on this bad news but I hope you can bring your horse back. Please try to think positively on this though and don't give up hope.
I did see you mention that you have a saddle fitter due out, is this to fit a new saddle or one that you have already bought?
My reason for asking is because if your boy is going to be out of work for at least 6 months then a saddle that fits him nicely now, may not do so 6 months or further down the line.
Sorry if you think that is a bit harsh, not trying to be, just thinking that you could use that money to fund treatment which may potentially enable your horse to be ridden again rather than buy a saddle now that will most likely need to be refitted again if that makes sense.
Good luck and I wish your boy a speedy recovery and hope he comes back sound again x

No worries at all FW, it was to replace his current saddle with one that fits but I'm going to cancel it now I know he's going to need so much time off and change shape throughout it, very good thinking though, would've been gutted to spend £1200 on a made to measure Albion that wasn't measuring the same as him in the next 6 months!! Thank you for the advice

bikerchickone the horse I rehabbed barefoot with "incurable" navicular was sound at 3 months, won his class in his National breed championships at a year and hunted with his new owner at 18 months, and has been in full work including jumping for approaching 2 years this spring.

I know it's a devastating diagnosis but your vet is quite likely to be wrong about your horse's future or about him needing 6 months rest. You are already contacting Rockley so I wrote this only to cheer you up a bit.

I'm clinging to this hope with both hands and all my teeth and I'm glad you posted that, hearing about your success has cheered me up, thank you

China, I'm gonna get to that pm right away, thank you

 

[littlescallywag]

Re: sulcus thrush, currently going through this with my boy, proving an absolute bugger to shift. Like oberons, no gunk, smell anything, just a pronounced toe first landing. Diagnosed by a uknhcp trimmer, farrier never ever mentioned it.
It was causing my boy to stumble and fall whilst being ridden.

Good luck and most importantly don't give up, it took a long time for your horse to develop problems, it will take a while to put it right.

 

[Bikerchickone]

Re: sulcus thrush, currently going through this with my boy, proving an absolute bugger to shift. Like oberons, no gunk, smell anything, just a pronounced toe first landing. Diagnosed by a uknhcp trimmer, farrier never ever mentioned it.
It was causing my boy to stumble and fall whilst being ridden.

Good luck and most importantly don't give up, it took a long time for your horse to develop problems, it will take a while to put it right.

Before this forum I'd never realised how serious and undetectable thrush could actually be, hence buying the field paste, but I think now I may well need to go a little bit deeper with treatment. I actually thought I was a pretty good owner, love my horses, always try to do the right thing but I think unless you get a different perspective every so often you can easily become the owner with the big bad but simple problem that just got away from you.

The responsibilities are just huge. I'm so glad there are forums like these to help point these things out. (not to mention the kind people that do so!)

 

[robthecob]

How does the trimmer recognise it but not a farrier? My mare lands toe first, I took her shoes off in december and seem to have got the diet under control, she is walking much much better although I do wish we had a little more growth.

My farrier is out later. How can I get him to check we don't have sulcas thrush?

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

sorry to hear about your boy , my mare has not had a saddle on her back since july and she has been in ever since recovering from laminitis .( 7 months)

6 months will pass give him the 6 months off if thats what they recommend

All i can suggest is do a lot of research on this. find out everything you can . Look on youtube i did found lot of stuff

My mare has harpley equestrian magnetic boots hock and knee, now i should get today hoof ones to help blood flow.

I have cried to seeing her struggle. There is always hope and until ( if ) it gets to that awful decision then you know you have done all you can .
Otherwise

THERE IS ALWAYS HOPE

WHERE THERE IS A WILL THERE IS A WAY!!!!!!
You will have some on H&H that will say dont bother waste of time .

The horse will let you know if it gets to much and your vet so don't let other people tell you this.

my mare has arthritis too thats why i bought the magnetic boots , she said keep the arthritis area warm.

Also my mare is on flexijoint she has been on it years and had 99% improvement as reviews here say http://equinecare-and-control.weebly.com/a.html.
make sure your farrier / barefoot trimmer is good on this problem there are expert out there I have Billy Crothers world champion you need the best for your boy
fingers crossed

 

[littlescallywag]

Sulcus thrush:- In my horses case, soft weedy frogs,split going right up into heel bulbs,ouchy when having feet picked out,inability to stand still for any length of time and refusing to stand for mounting(was told he was ignorant and to beat him I didn't !, falling and stumbling, he was also constantly weeing and pooing where he stood and then standing in it, (doesn't do that anymore since started treating).
When I found out the reason for all his "bad" behaviour, I felt so sad, he was trying to tell me there was something wrong the whole time.

I think that farriers don't tend to spot the thrush because their training doesn't make the horses frog the main component of how the hoof works where as with barefoot trimmers the frog IS pretty much the main component of good hoof mechanics,as well as diet.

That's my understanding of it, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong