Badger cull - for or against? Please Please watch

what i dont understand is why if they can vaccinate badgers against BTB why it is not available for cattle or is it? and if its not available why the hell not? Lets face it BTB has been around for a good few years so why is it taking so long. Look at swine flue we had a vaccination available within weeks for that same with other 'new' strains of virus ect. I cant get my head around why there seems to be no progress.

BTB or no BTB the ridiculous protection of badgers must be removed. As others have said the population of badgers is on the increase and there are more diseased or ill animals around. On my way home tonight there was a dead badger at the side of the road. It was in a terrible condition all mangy with visible old injury marks on it.
 
I think it is all very sad, I love badgers, but I can understand why it needs to be done and so I suppose I would support it. I don't know enough about the disease and it's effect on farming, I am ashamed to say but I understand that it leads to whole herds being wiped out.
 
LIZ66 said:
Although I agree that the affects of bovine TB are devastating for the dairy/beef industry, there is no definitive answer that the cull will eradicate TB. There are still many in the vet sector who favour vaccination and I would prefer that this was trialled first, as will now happen in Wales.

And before you all shout me down as a bunny hugger, I am not. I am a farmers daughter who still has strong ties with the farming community, but I feel that the cull has been introduced as a vote winner by the govt for the very strong farmer vote. I watched all my brothers livestock taken away to be slaughtered during the F&M outbreak, so I know at first hand how this affects farming families.

Once all the badgers are dead it will be too late to decide that it didn't work and cows are still catching TB.

Hopefully the challenge of the cull by the Badger Trust in the High Court will force the govt to have a change of heart.
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Vaccination is hugely expensive and 'if' it works will take 5-10 years before any effect is seen. It is not nearly as easy to cage trap badgers as is suggested and they will have no way of knowing whether they have vaccinated all of the badgers in an area. It is massively impractical and there are uncertainties that the vaccine will even be effective. I'm afraid that there is clear evidence that badger culling does work and has in the past (not the trial that was sabotaged by anti's). If you look at Tb cattle incidences on a graph from the point 20 years ago when it was nearly eradicated, as soon as the Protection of Badgers Act was put into place there was a steady increase in the rate of TB and the number of reactors escalating to the situation we are in today. Why are badgers any different from any other wildlife that farmers are allowed to control? I agree with a law against badger baiting but they went to far. They are overpopulated and disease within the species is rife and spreading to many other species.
 
shortstuff99 said:
Also I think you will find there is no definitive proof that badgers even infect the cattle and it is not the other way around! I think they also need to look at how cows are managed. TB is spread through poor hygiene in crowded conditions, ie cows all kept in a shed are more likely to spread TB around. I believe we should trial immunisation before blithely culling a species just for monetary reasons!
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Complete rubbish, please get your facts straight. Did the Longhorns in that video look to be kept in overcrowded unhygienic conditions!!? Did you actually watch it? Dai loved those cows, they had the best care and attention cows could hope for. Of course there are bad farmers out there, just like there are people who are cruel to horses and keep them in dreadful conditions, it's no different. The bad farmers are in the minority and that is NOT the reason bTB has spread to the situation we are in today. And there is scientific evidence that badgers spread bTB to cattle.
 
TED2010 said:
Complete rubbish, please get your facts straight. Did the Longhorns in that video look to be kept in overcrowded unhygienic conditions!!? Did you actually watch it? Dai loved those cows, they had the best care and attention cows could hope for. Of course there are bad farmers out there, just like there are people who are cruel to horses and keep them in dreadful conditions, it's no different. The bad farmers are in the minority and that is NOT the reason bTB has spread to the situation we are in today. And there is scientific evidence that badgers spread bTB to cattle.
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If you watch countryfile Adam was saying that he tends to go clear when the cattle are in the sheds its during the summer months when the cattle are at grass (when they are coming into contact with badgers) that they become infected
 
happyhacking:) said:
If you watch countryfile Adam was saying that he tends to go clear when the cattle are in the sheds its during the summer months when the cattle are at grass (when they are coming into contact with badgers) that they become infected
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Yes, but badgers also come into farm buildings and cattle housing searching for food, they urinate and leave their faeces on the cattle feed leading to the cattle becoming infected. I have filmed this on many occasions on CCTV camera - it is part of my job! There is no practical way of preventing contact at grazing but usually cattle housing and feed stores can be made badger proof
 
happyhacking:) said:
what i dont understand is why if they can vaccinate badgers against BTB why it is not available for cattle or is it? and if its not available why the hell not? Lets face it BTB has been around for a good few years so why is it taking so long. Look at swine flue we had a vaccination available within weeks for that same with other 'new' strains of virus ect. I cant get my head around why there seems to be no progress.

BTB or no BTB the ridiculous protection of badgers must be removed. As others have said the population of badgers is on the increase and there are more diseased or ill animals around. On my way home tonight there was a dead badger at the side of the road. It was in a terrible condition all mangy with visible old injury marks on it.
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There is a vaccination that could be used for cattle but they have not validated the test known as the 'DIVA' test which is what they use to differentiate between a vaccinated animal and one that is infected with TB. When this test is validated we still have the problem that currently the EU will not allow us to vaccinate, if we did they would stop all our exports.
 
If the cull was to go ahead, would they do it on a farm that hasn't had any reacters. Asking because we have had no reacters for the past 10 years, and we have a few badger sets around the farm. So my concern would be that if the current badgers here are culled the next ones that move in may have tb. A few farms around us have had tb.
 
Actually if you read the article someone posted earlier they state that there is NO proof that badgers infect cows and it is perfectly reasonable that cows infect badgers! I didn't say that all cows are kept in these conditions, but if you look up how TB is spread, it is by overcrowded, unhygienic conditions, that's is fact. of course the effects of TB are horrific but I feel that farmers are jumping on the easy option of culling rather then looking in their own houses, and as stated before removing badgers just leaves a hole to be filled by new badgers, s do you propose to wipe out all badgers? If s what happens if that doesn't cure TB? What will they cull then?
 
shortstuff99 said:
Actually if you read the article someone posted earlier they state that there is NO proof that badgers infect cows and it is perfectly reasonable that cows infect badgers! I didn't say that all cows are kept in these conditions, but if you look up how TB is spread, it is by overcrowded, unhygienic conditions, that's is fact. of course the effects of TB are horrific but I feel that farmers are jumping on the easy option of culling rather then looking in their own houses, and as stated before removing badgers just leaves a hole to be filled by new badgers, s do you propose to wipe out all badgers? If s what happens if that doesn't cure TB? What will they cull then?
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Rubbish. So how do you explain infected cattle out at pasture that have not been in sheds? I dont deny that those conditions will spread the disease further but most cattle are NOT kept under these conditions.
 
Once again I say that I'm not saying it is just being kept in those conditions that cause it but will probably contribute. But people seem to like ignoring the fact that there is no proof that badgers infect cows. Other then a farmers say so.
 
shortstuff99 said:
Actually if you read the article someone posted earlier they state that there is NO proof that badgers infect cows and it is perfectly reasonable that cows infect badgers! I didn't say that all cows are kept in these conditions, but if you look up how TB is spread, it is by overcrowded, unhygienic conditions, that's is fact. of course the effects of TB are horrific but I feel that farmers are jumping on the easy option of culling rather then looking in their own houses, and as stated before removing badgers just leaves a hole to be filled by new badgers, s do you propose to wipe out all badgers? If s what happens if that doesn't cure TB? What will they cull then?
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So, as i said before-
Closed herd, no cattle to other cattle contact apart their cohorts, no animals brought to the farm, only leave to slaughter
Low intensity suckler/beef herds
Organic herds which by law have to be of lower intensity than non.

Farmers are not jumping on any bandwagon, they just want something done! As i said before I don't know what the answer is, but perhaps the government will grow a pair and start a trial in the real world so we can try to control or contain bTB.
Farmers are a seriously minority group as far as voting goes but we do feed the country in one way or another (even the vegetarians) and to have your livilihood gradually removed is something few can maintain, financially or emotionally.
 
shortstuff99 said:
Actually if you read the article someone posted earlier they state that there is NO proof that badgers infect cows and it is perfectly reasonable that cows infect badgers! I didn't say that all cows are kept in these conditions, but if you look up how TB is spread, it is by overcrowded, unhygienic conditions, that's is fact. of course the effects of TB are horrific but I feel that farmers are jumping on the easy option of culling rather then looking in their own houses, and as stated before removing badgers just leaves a hole to be filled by new badgers, s do you propose to wipe out all badgers? If s what happens if that doesn't cure TB? What will they cull then?
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Not ALL badgers but all badgers in hotspot diseased areas should be culled. If farms are free from TB within the cull area they have the option to vaccinate their badgers. There is proof that badgers transmit TB to cattle and I'm not saying it is impossible that the transmission happens the other way too. An experiment was conducted were cattle known to be infected were housed with un-infected cattle with little ventilation and high density - guess what, there was no cattle to cattle transition. Badgers should be culled using gassing the setts as this will prevent perturbation and will prevent other badgers moving into the setts for a long time. I don't hate badgers I just want a healthy wildlife population, but if nothing is done all other species will (that aren't already) will be affected. Farmers can't do anymore than they are they are bound up by red tape as it is and their cattle are already being slaughtered to try and stop the spread. I spend everyday on different farms around the southwest
 
shortstuff99 said:
Once again I say that I'm not saying it is just being kept in those conditions that cause it but will probably contribute. But people seem to like ignoring the fact that there is no proof that badgers infect cows. Other then a farmers say so.
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So if its not badgers how do you think its spreading? Its not just farmers saying it either vets (did you watch the link?) and DEFRA also agree that badgers are at the very least contributing to the spread of BTB. its just the bunny hugging we must not kill or harm any animal brigade that dont!
 
happyhacking:) said:
So if its not badgers how do you think its spreading? Its not just farmers saying it either vets (did you watch the link?) and DEFRA also agree that badgers are at the very least contributing to the spread of BTB. its just the bunny hugging we must not kill or harm any animal brigade that dont!
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Totally agree, we cannot touch badgers but it is ok to cull 10 000's of cattle? Not sure how that works?
 
shortstuff99 said:
Once again I say that I'm not saying it is just being kept in those conditions that cause it but will probably contribute. But people seem to like ignoring the fact that there is no proof that badgers infect cows. Other then a farmers say so.
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This is not true, there is scientific evidence!!!! As well as the fact that in many cases there is NO other explanation! I have lots of research papers on my other laptop and will post them tomorrow if you cant do your own research properly. If your reading from the badger trust website then it probably will tell you that!
 
I have an article that shows the culling of badgers DOES NOT prevent the spread of TB but can actually INCREASE incidences and it is peer reviewed: Impact of Localised badger culling on TurbErculosis Incidence in British cattle (2003) Donnelly et al
 
shortstuff99 said:
I have an article that shows the culling of badgers DOES NOT prevent the spread of TB but can actually INCREASE incidences and it is peer reviewed: Impact of Localised badger culling on TurbErculosis Incidence in British cattle (2003) Donnelly et al
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Of course it has the potential to if it's not done properly and perterbation is not prevented!
 
We lost 60 cattle one tb test. Devastating to say the least. Local to us farmers are having pigs tb tested. Just think if it got into the deer population. Most farmers love nature /badgers and want to do the best for them but there is a definite link and it needs to be addressed.
 
Vaccinating is not sensible, there are so many strains of the virus it would never reasonably work, new strains are always appearing.
I have my doubts about the cull, but it is the only way forward. We made such awful mistakes in the 80s we have to take responsibility for them now, at the very least from a population point of view.
I have found it interesting to read about the culling strategy, but it will have to be done properly, my parents dairy herd are in a highly populated badger area, however they are tb free and unless culling is done very thoroughly you risk infected badgers moving to bTB areas.
 
It's a sacrifice I know but until either a vaccine reaches phase iii or it's wiped out by eradication, tb will continue to affect human livelihoods for as long as beef is worth any money.

If not culling, we could just build more roads and just drive into more badgers (& other known tb carrying mortals).
 
TED2010 said:
There is a vaccination that could be used for cattle but they have not validated the test known as the 'DIVA' test which is what they use to differentiate between a vaccinated animal and one that is infected with TB. When this test is validated we still have the problem that currently the EU will not allow us to vaccinate, if we did they would stop all our exports.
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this is one of the major problems that we are not allowed to by the EU

but the cow vs badger vs tb debate is complex and there are no straight answers. if you kill a badge set badgers from outside the area will come and take over the set or the range of the original badger. but did you also know that we are inadvertently breeding or selecting for sensitivity to TB in the cow population. African cows are resistant to compared to Holsteins........................here are a couple of scientific papers

A preliminary study of genetic factors that influence susceptibility to bovine tuberculosis in the British cattle herd.
Driscoll EE, Hoffman JI, Green LE, Medley GF, Amos W.
Source

Department of Zoology, University of Cambridge, Cambridge, United Kingdom.

Comp Immunol Microbiol Infect Dis. 2012 May;35(3):227-32. Epub 2012 Feb 1.
The influence of cattle breed on susceptibility to bovine tuberculosis in Ethiopia.
Vordermeier M, Ameni G, Berg S, Bishop R, Robertson BD, Aseffa A, Hewinson RG, Young DB.
Source

Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency, TB Research Group, New Haw, Addlestone, Surrey KT15 3NB, United Kingdom.

maybe we need to look at this problem in more depth and approach it from more than one angle and maybe we will have a long term solution and literately not a shot to kill policy that we seem to be walking into at the moment
 
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Tiggy1 said:
We lost 60 cattle one tb test. Devastating to say the least. Local to us farmers are having pigs tb tested. Just think if it got into the deer population. Most farmers love nature /badgers and want to do the best for them but there is a definite link and it needs to be addressed.
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Unfortunately it has already spread to the deer, Exmoor has a big problem in their red deer but at least they are allowed to cull in season and deer do not spread TB in the same way ad badgers do. Unfortunately there is land owned by The League Against Cruel Sports (pah) with deer which are infected and probably won't be culled unless they are forced.
 
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