badminton 3DE - non OT comments

[wkiwi]

Had enough of trying to find comments about badminton that aren't related to a certain rider, so starting a different thread before badminton disappears over the horizon. So here is some new topics to discuss. Feel free to add more, but nothing about any particular rider PLEASE !!

Was fascinated to read the facts about past winners. No horse over 17hh has won which really surprised me! If i was a rider at that level it would make me wonder if one was ever going to. Anyone know of horses bigger than 17hh that have won the big 4 stars?

The smallest horses to win have both been 15hh, and won in 1960 and 1968. Does that mean that nowadays a small horse wouldn't win? Or that no-one tries competitively to this level on 15hh horses anymore.

Interesting that the first three places would have remained the same regardless of whether the dressage was scored under the old system or the new. Different riders seemed to have different views on whether the old system or the new system was best. Will be interesting to see the results in future events and whether their opinions change.

Of those who have ridden three days under the old system (roads and tracks/steeplechase), did you ENJOY it more than the new system? (i.e. not raking up the old arguments of whether it should still be there or not, but which did you prefer training for and riding).

 

[dominobrown]

interesting about the size of horses.
I thought there was some brilliant performances from the some of the lesser known British riders... georgie Spence, Tom McEwen, and Harry Meades' round was class.

 

[joosie]

I haven't heard him talked about much but I thought Tom McEwen's showjumping round with Toledo was an absolute pleasure to watch. Lovely stuff. I was really happy for Jonelle but man did she have luck on her side!

 

[TGM]

I enjoyed both Toledo's SJ and XC rounds, he finished the XC still bouncing which was lovely to see. And his SJ round was very classy indeed and I think he is a great advertisement for the virtues of the Selle Francais! Nicely ridden too.

 

[caladria]

Portersize Just A Jiff is 15.1hh and regularly turned up on the BBC's Badminton coverage in the lineup as "the shortest horse here" (biggest/shortest/oldest/youngest was replaced by the two old famous horses (Sam and Nereo), the crowdfunded (Cooley Rourkes Drift), and... someone else... this year.) And of course going back a bit, Mark Todd's Charisma was only 15hh, but never won a UK 4* ("just" the Olympics, twice), and Teddy O'Conner was a nearly 14.2hh pony and got a podium at Kentucky 4*...

In terms of big horses, 17hh Macchiato won Luhmuelen in 2008 with WFP.

So, I dunno - they seem to win in proportion to their entries.

 

[googol]

Very interesting about horse height.
Every year when badminton is on I watch it with amazement thinking what true athletes eventing horses at that level are. The fact that they can ponse round the dressage then tackle that XC and finish off with a stylish SJ round just really amazes me. I know that shows my complete ignorance and amateur-ishness but it’s my honest opinion lol
I recently very sadly became horseless and I’m not currently in a position to have another but when we were watching the SJ on the Sun I said to my husband, how am I supposed to fill my heart and lifestyle with something else after having horses as my hobby for so many years, nothing compares!
Anyway, slightly off topic there
Did the poster who usually does the jump analysis of the xc do it this year?(can’t remember their name to search)

 

[wkiwi]

The fact that they can ponse round the dressage then tackle that XC and finish off with a stylish SJ round just really amazes me. I know that shows my complete ignorance and amateur-ishness but it’s my honest opinion lol

Not ignorance/amateur at all. I've ridden three days (at low level, not 4 star) and it amazes me how they change for each discipline and cope with all sorts of things.
Love the way horses thoroughly enjoy galloping and jumping too, although i sometimes wonder what they really think of dressage when they go round and round a rectangle for no apparent purpose (from their point of view).

 

[ihatework]

The size thing is interesting.
Small horses generally don’t get bought for top level sport, they might end up there but I’d say the proportion of them is quite small.
There are lots of 17hh+ horses out eventing, taking high placings left right and centre. All star B is humongous and there were plenty of other biggies.

I think it might be a little bit the case of horses being registered at 4/5 as 16.2 and then continuing to grow! If they are big young they might be called 17hh. Allstar B is 17hh on the database

So you might easily have had 17hh winners but the records might not reflect it.
A couple of Nicholson’s have been huge too.

4* horses come in all shapes and sizes, they are freaks really. The one I’m close to and was at Badminton with is 17.1/2

 

[TGM]

I think it might be a little bit the case of horses being registered at 4/5 as 16.2 and then continuing to grow! If they are big young they might be called 17hh. Allstar B is 17hh on the database

Yes I think that is a good point, I know one event horse who is registered as 16.1 but was advertised for sale recently as 16.3hh, and he certainly looks that height too. They can certainly grow quite a bit after 4/5, we bought a 15.3hh 5yo a few years ago who ended up as 16.1hh. So the registered heights are not always a true reflection of real life heights.

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

Harry Meade with Away Cruising was just a lesson in horsemanship from start to end. How he handled an obviously terrified horse in that arena was a pleasure to watch. He guided the horse around the course and I got the impression the horse has grown from the experience.

I thought your point about the change to the dressage marking not making a difference to the top 3 was very interesting. I worried it had diminished the impact of the dressage phase, particularly with no horses making the optimum time on the cross country, but I see I was wrong. I think this new scoring approach is probably a lot easier to understand.

 

[9tails]

I've just read what the changes to the dressage scores are. So they're not being multiplied by 1.5, I never knew they were but now realise that some of the previous scores were a darn sight better than I thought! I guess it's all the same really, you need a horse that is good at all three rather than one who goes around the SJ like the Demolition Derby. So the losers are the Demolition Derby riders who will now drop further down the placings. As they should.

 

[Scarlett]

We fence judged at Tweseldown for the Int and Adv this spring and there were a few horses who were nowhere near their noted height! There was one in the Adv who was down as 15h and looked it and several who were not much bigger, if they actually were bigger, who were on the program as 16h. One in particular was a stallion who was listed as 16.1 and was dwarfed in the warm up by several horses also listed as that height.

I know a horse who is a 4* winner and is listed as 16hh but when tacking him up he's no bigger than my little gelding who is 15.1/15.2. He was event fit when I last saw him too.

Remember Headley Brittania who won it 11 years ago - I think registered as 15.2 IIRC but really was tiny in real life.

 

[only_me]

Re. Horse sizes, there’s not much point in measuring a horse bigger than 16h as there’s no height requirement, so I’d say most horses are just put down as 16.2hh

You see it in selling, once a horse is labelled as 17h it instantly kills off some of the market as most will be looking a horse max 16.2hh. But the difference between a 16.2 and 17 is minuscule!
Mine is 17h but feels no bigger to ride than my previous 16.2, in fact is easier as he is naturally forward. He doesn’t even cost more to feed and was same size in rugs lol.

Most small horses will have a more accurate measurement because they have probably been tried to measure in for 158cm classes, or in the case of just a Jiff 148 classes lol.

There’s something lovely when you ride a soft, bendy responsive horse and then 2 hours later you are hurtling towards a big table out xc with the horse brave bold and enjoying it as much as you!

 

[Cortez]

Love the way horses thoroughly enjoy galloping and jumping too, although i sometimes wonder what they really think of dressage when they go round and round a rectangle for no apparent purpose (from their point of view).

...probably the same as they think about running about and jumping over things for no apparent purpose either.

 

[caladria]

Harry Meade with Away Cruising was just a lesson in horsemanship from start to end. How he handled an obviously terrified horse in that arena was a pleasure to watch. He guided the horse around the course and I got the impression the horse has grown from the experience.

I thought your point about the change to the dressage marking not making a difference to the top 3 was very interesting. I worried it had diminished the impact of the dressage phase, particularly with no horses making the optimum time on the cross country, but I see I was wrong. I think this new scoring approach is probably a lot easier to understand.

I think the "no horses making time" thing is a weather/ground + Badminton effect specific to that one event, rather than an overarching thing. And even with multiplier, years like 2014 still happened.

A certain podcast puts forth that losing the multiplier means that at 4* overall it now means that cross country is (marginally) the most influential phase, but that at all other fei levels dressage remains the most important score - instead of the multiplier promoting the dressage to most important throughout.

 

[Supertrooper]

Harry Meade has done a brilliant write up on his website. Always loved watching him ride.

I thought some of the younger riders rode beautifully this year.

 

[Bernster]

Harry Meade has done a brilliant write up on his website. Always loved watching him ride.

I thought some of the younger riders rode beautifully this year.

Loved his round. He really is a super rider xc in particular.

 

[windand rain]

Really think getting rid of the roads and tracks and steeplechase have deminished the event as the horses are no longer fit enough. They had to be supremely fit to complete as did the rider. So although there were tired horses then they didnt seem half as weary as they do now, a bit of sticky ground shouldnt make them that tired. It also meant tired horses were weeded out before tackling the big solid x country fences

 

[teapot]

Really think getting rid of the roads and tracks and steeplechase have deminished the event as the horses are no longer fit enough. They had to be supremely fit to complete as did the rider. So although there were tired horses then they didnt seem half as weary as they do now, a bit of sticky ground shouldnt make them that tired. It also meant tired horses were weeded out before tackling the big solid x country fences

You're forgetting that no one, not even the old school pros have had ideal preparation conditions this season. There would have been horses running on Saturday who would have only run a couple of times since last Autumn. Also no amount of fittening work, esp not when using surfaced gallop tracks, can gurantee a horse's fitness on sticky holding ground.

 

[Annagain]

I think smaller horses in particular are often ones that people have had through pony club and have just kept going so they're more likely to be doing their first 4* events and to have first time riders at 4* level on them. They won't necessarily be competitive in their first few years but will be there for the experience and might take the odd long route etc. I'm pretty sure that was the case with Just A Jiff, although they kept going and going for a good few years and got closer and closer to the top. Teddy o'Conner was the exception being ridden by an already established rider.

I liked Harry Mead's explanation of why bigger horses aren't always the easiest, especially when it comes to XC. "It's like driving a double decker bus round country lanes when they need a dual carriageway." i.e. not only do they need to slow down more and be better set up for tricky combinations, they take longer to speed up again. He was talking about how Artic Soul could accelerate so quickly away from a fence compared to his horse.

 

[ihatework]

You're forgetting that no one, not even the old school pros have had ideal preparation conditions this season. There would have been horses running on Saturday who would have only run a couple of times since last Autumn. Also no amount of fittening work, esp not when using surfaced gallop tracks, can gurantee a horse's fitness on sticky holding ground.

Too right.
Also courses and eventing have evolved over the years, far far more technical now. Having to constantly jump skinny to angle and back on yourself zaps energy.
Add to that the ever increasing standard for dressage & sj and %TB is changing to become more competitive in that area. So the less blood and more rounded action is slower.

I think the removal of the coefficient is the best thing to happen to the sport in a long time. More emphasis on quick double clears which is what eventing should be about.

Possibly not demonstrated the best at Badminton this year due to the ground, but Kentucky was interesting.

 

[ester]

I thought Toledo looked fab too!

Little Tiger was little too, but having watched her dressage a couple of times it definitely wasn't her forte but good value for money entertainment wise

 

[TGM]

So although there were tired horses then they didnt seem half as weary as they do now, a bit of sticky ground shouldnt make them that tired.

I think the conditions at Badminton this year were fairly unusual, as you had the combination of sticky ground and hot, sunny conditions. Usually when the ground is sticky the weather is cooler, and when it is hot and sunny the ground is usually firmer so rides faster. I think the two factors combined made it harder for the horses than it would normally be.

 

[dominobrown]

I think people need to not romantise the past and remember the "good old days" that actually weren't that good.
If you look at some old videos of events especially Badminton in the early 90's there were exhausted horses there climbing fences. Just don't think people of used to seeing it now. It's not pleasant viewing but go look at some videos from the 70's... not sure all the horses were fitter!

 

[wkiwi]

...probably the same as they think about running about and jumping over things for no apparent purpose either.

Yes but if you let horses out into a large area with hills and trees etc. most will often run around and explore and some will jump fallen trees and streams on the way. If you let it out into an arena it won't go and do anything like a dressage test (though agree some will do the movements showing off if they are excited etc.,) and if you open the gate they would (most of them) prefer the round the paddock trip rather than stay walking and trotting circles in the arena.

 

[AandK]

Really think getting rid of the roads and tracks and steeplechase have deminished the event as the horses are no longer fit enough. They had to be supremely fit to complete as did the rider. So although there were tired horses then they didnt seem half as weary as they do now, a bit of sticky ground shouldnt make them that tired. It also meant tired horses were weeded out before tackling the big solid x country fences

I have to say I completely disagree. There were plenty of tired horses back in the long format days, but there was a lot less coverage of the XC and so you wouldn't have seen many of them. TV coverage would probably not have been live so they would have picked the best bits. The upside of horses not needing to be 'supremely fit' is they have much longer careers, gone are the days of being walked all night for the second inspection...
Also, the ground was more than a bit sticky! There was also the hot weather to contend with.

 

[Mooseontheloose]

Perhaps it helped that Classic Moet had had a nice stay in Southern Spain where the weather was not always clement but I'm sure the lovely facilities at Vejer helped with the fittening when the beast from the east was blowing here.

 

[Cloball]

I think there were 2 stallions competing this year as well.

I think the modern courses suit fast maneuverable smaller horses especially now they've removed the co-efficient.

Totally aside people often ask about coloured horses at the top level and I am pretty sure Charlton Down Riverdance is a lovely minimally marked coloured (tobiano).

 

[Mooseontheloose]

Don't forget Bits and Pieces with Pippa.

 

[teapot]

Also, how I wish we could have seen Tina Cook around that course. Have a feeling she would have been super competitive score wise this year.