Baffling Dressage comments / scores

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Blythe Spirit

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I am sure many of you have been in similar situations - but last night I took my little horse a young horse beginners dressage evening. He was rather tense but mostly OK, particularly in the warm up. However in the arena he took a dislike to the tea tent by the arena sides but everything was going OK untill I had to ask for canter out of that corner just as I did so a loud frying? noise startled him and a took off away from the tent and down towards the exit - no real issue I simply circled him round and after a short time he relaxed again and was back under control - but it was a pretty clear mishap. My test score was poor as I deserved but for my first unpanicked canter - which viewers said was lovely I got 5/5/6 and 'on the forehand' and for the second almost ****** off clearly not in control for more than half of it - I got 6/6.5/6 circle not v. round. Illogical!
 
I find it even more baffling when the score doesn't match the comment:

"good"... 5 huh?

"some loss of balance" ... 7.5 now you're taking the mickey, right?

(this is the reason I'm taking F to BDs now instead. I'm not stupid, I don't expect him to get anywhere, I'd just like comments, marks and test to match up :p )
 
I often think DR scoring can be really illogical! I did some DR recently - horse spent the first half of the test tense, sucking his neck back and going overbent... I got 8s for that half of the test. After his first canter, he settled, relaxed his neck, stretched more forwards into the contact and was generally lovely... 6s and 7s. Then at a recent BE, we cantered across the diagonal when we should have been trotting, and I got an 8...

I've long since stopped really paying much attention to my DR scores, I just go by how the horse felt on the day!
 
Even at BD the comments can have me doing a double take!

As said above I just go on how I felt it went ;), I've had a comment about 'snatching the reins and not relaxed' in a free walk where Topaz had stretched down into the contact when I lengthened the reins and really relaxed and over-tracked, that had me puzzling as we still got a 7.5 but I couldn't grasp where the snatching the reins came from when she didn't? Most of the time I agree with the judges comments but the odd one has me going huh?

x x
 
You do get the odd baffling score/comment.
My recent one was for free walk.
I train with a list 3a judge and his comment on my boys walk was he couldn't see how any judge could give him less than a 7. Also had first session with list 2 judge who's first comment was "what a super walk".
Now in all our test so far their impression has been born out by the scores, normally 7.5 or 8 with comment such as 'very promising'.
So you can imagine my surprise when recently he was given a 6 with the comment of 'needs to take contact more'. Same walk he always does. Best just to shrug and move on.
 
I know judge bashing gets terribly frowned upon.

But two weeks ago I did a test that was definitely not great, but definitely not awful (I have been doing these moderate dressage tests for well over 15 years, so I know what moderate feels like ... ;) ) and got 52%. No major errors, no breaks in the walk or canter etc. Just a little bit too much tension, and judge hated it...

Went out BE last weekend, had an equal amount of tension and made errors (broke in the walk, exploded into canter) and got 61%.

First test horse got a 5 for paces, second test horse got a 7 for paces. No difference in his paces, just a different judge.
 
BE judges are supposed to expect some tension compared to BD. A horse fit enough for and expexcting xc will be more tense than a dressage horse should be
 
Tolerate is a better word maybe. Have written for a few judges now and generally the baseline 6 at BD will look different to a 6 at BE. Would expect a horse that is not truly forward to be marked down more than one showing tension at BE and vice versa at BD from what I've seen. Obviously all judges have their bugbears...
 
Can't agree with much of the above Wishful, that said I've ridden infinitely more dressage tests than I have judged. Old horse was always marked down for tension out eventing, yet was scoring well in novice and elementary tests doing BD. Think it is more judge specific than discipline specific...

And my example before was not BD vs BE, rather very low-end RC show compared to a BE event...

Live and let live, there's a reason why I couldn't do dressage as my 'main' discipline! I do like to have a good ceremonial burning of the bad sheets....
 
This is what puts me off dressage (unaffiliated) to be honest - I have seen some awful awful tests which get marks in there 70's, beating not so bad/good ones. I think it is so subjective at that level.
 
RachelFerd said:
Cor, I thought those guidelines were massively condescending actually!
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I have to say I agree, they are bizarrely drafted. Obviously a horse that is expecting to go xc and can see or hear the xc course shouldn't be overly penalised for being a tad excited. But the comment about event horses being sharp and fit enough to run for their lives made me laugh. What, are dressage horses fat and unfit and too dumb to give a hoot about their environments then?!? Ha.
 
Fun Times said:
What, are dressage horses fat and unfit and too dumb to give a hoot about their environments then?!? Ha.
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Well, for *some* of them perhaps that's not a ridiculous comment... Not the highest levels, of course, but some of the lower to mid levels perhaps :p
 
I think the comments about event horses expecting to show tension due to the XC is massively condescending. The whole point of the dressage phase surely is to show their obedience & training despite being fit to gallop & jump!
 
Blythe Spirit said:
My test score was poor as I deserved but for my first unpanicked canter - which viewers said was lovely I got 5/5/6 and 'on the forehand' and for the second almost ****** off clearly not in control for more than half of it - I got 6/6.5/6 circle not v. round. Illogical!
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Just to get back to the original post, my interpretation of this is that the first canter, whilst looking lovely was lacking engagement and suppleness, hence the on forehand comments, whilst the second canter scored higher because of the increased impulsion. Why didn't you go and speak to the judge at the end and ask them to explain the marks? The comment/mark disparity is more likely to be a writer error, unless you have been writing for the same judge before, it is quite easy to muck up a few sheets!
 
glamourpuss said:
I think the comments about event horses expecting to show tension due to the XC is massively condescending. The whole point of the dressage phase surely is to show their obedience & training despite being fit to gallop & jump!
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Did you listen to the Carl and Pammy commentary at Badminton? They were slating some of the marks given, especially in the walk pirouettes, basically saying at BD the judges would never award the marks they did! Makes you wonder if our top combinations have actually got better at dressage over the years, or if the judging has just been dumbed down too much?
 
The best condescending part of those BD guidelines is this sentence "also remember to be tolerant at the lower levels where it is possible that riders will have had no dressage education whatsoever"

Riiiiiiight.... Because everyone thats ever done BD has had so much more dressage education than event riders....

The guidelines read like they have qualified judges who weren't even aware that event horses have to jump and gallop. Really LOL, beggars belief...
 
RachelFerd said:
The best condescending part of those BD guidelines is this sentence "also remember to be tolerant at the lower levels where it is possible that riders will have had no dressage education whatsoever"

Riiiiiiight.... Because everyone thats ever done BD has had so much more dressage education than event riders....

The guidelines read like they have qualified judges who weren't even aware that event horses have to jump and gallop. Really LOL, beggars belief...
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I mainly do BD, and all I can say is that it's just as bad if not worse than Unaff or BE. It's the same judges! I think that because of the heavy criticism of judging BD are fixated on the movements and are not considering the quality of the horses basic gaits. They are mostly fault and error based marking.

Judge training and hideous directives are not helping. They are now marking up stiff and bad moving horses because they manage to mince round the arena in the right places with absolutely no rhythm, impulsion, bend or uphill tendency!
 
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zizz said:
Just to get back to the original post, my interpretation of this is that the first canter, whilst looking lovely was lacking engagement and suppleness, hence the on forehand comments, whilst the second canter scored higher because of the increased impulsion. Why didn't you go and speak to the judge at the end and ask them to explain the marks? The comment/mark disparity is more likely to be a writer error, unless you have been writing for the same judge before, it is quite easy to muck up a few sheets!
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To bring it back to the OP's original post (rather than a BE vs BD general moaning debate) - I completely agree with the above. Yes it might have felt better, and looked better to the general public watching, the judge clearly saw a horse that was on the forehand. He cant have been using his back-end at this point and didnt have enough impulsion coming from behind to carry himself properly. The 2nd canter, whilst he wasnt doing as he was told (so not being obedient) clearly had more impulsion therefore was quite possibly working more from behind at this point, hence the higher marks.

I know it seems odd but generally there is method in the madness for dressage judges - we as competitors need to take a few hours to get the anger out of our system, then really review the comments and think why one section of a test may have scored better than another, when we expected it to be the other way around. I know that is not easy, and human nature is to jump into criticizing another human being rather than accepting they may actually be right and blaming ourselves instead.

Ultimately dressage is based on (normally) 1 judge's opinion, and whilst BD train the judges as best they can - judges will have different experience throughout their lives with horses, they will be of different ages therefore will have had different training....you just cant get judges to be completely consistent for a variety of reasons. So by competing in dressage you are accepting that the judge has competed to the same level as you and probably higher, that their opinion therefore is more 'accurate' than your own because you have paid in essence for them to critique your horse and its movement.

Of course it is going to be frustrating when you felt something different to what they saw, but this is the nature of dressage and it is very subjective - you have to take the good with the bad and try to keep yourself calm enough to take learnings from every sheet, even the bad ones. As I said before, there will be a method to the madness, you just need to take the time to really think about why the judge might have marked that way and then work on that at home. If you are struggling, get your trainer to read through the sheet and try and have every test videoed so there are multiple opportunities to review the test.
 
kc100 said:
Of course it is going to be frustrating when you felt something different to what they saw, but this is the nature of dressage and it is very subjective - you have to take the good with the bad and try to keep yourself calm enough to take learnings from every sheet, even the bad ones. As I said before, there will be a method to the madness, you just need to take the time to really think about why the judge might have marked that way and then work on that at home. If you are struggling, get your trainer to read through the sheet and try and have every test videoed so there are multiple opportunities to review the test.
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Agree with this. I don't do BD, but I do UA dressage and have done some BE (low level!) this year. I find that I have to go into it really only worrying about how the horse felt compared to last time (ie, hopefully it was better but if not, why not?), what errors did I make, what was I pleased with, what do we need to improve on for next time. I must admit that it's rare I get a test sheet back which disagrees with the issues that come up in my lessons. So if I look back 6 months, we were getting comments that horse needed more bend - that is exactly what we were working on at home. That is now much better, but now the comments are tending to be more about consistency of contact. Again, this is what we are working on - horse needs to work with a slightly longer neck and he can still be a bit green in the contact here, and if he's tense at a show he will tense up and suck back a little. In general I find the judge's comments usually reflect what I've been working on at home, and often once I'm happy I've dealt with a particular issue, it isn't being mentioned on test sheets either.

But you do sometimes get slightly odd comments too! ;)
 
zizz said:
Did you listen to the Carl and Pammy commentary at Badminton? They were slating some of the marks given, especially in the walk pirouettes, basically saying at BD the judges would never award the marks they did! Makes you wonder if our top combinations have actually got better at dressage over the years, or if the judging has just been dumbed down too much?
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Yes - did you read CH's report in the H&H Badminton issue of the mag? He did slate quite a lot of the tests.
 
I must say I have noticed a very different approach to judging, having watched a lot of BD and BE. I wonder if this is a concious decision. Were the judges at Badminton BD judges?
 
Badminton being FEI would have had FEI judges. Who have to be on the BD lists - and experienced judging up to PSG.

Judges at BE and BD are all trained by BD. The Lists are administered by BD. Some BE 80 and 90 can be judged by people who have ridden at a sufficiently high level (medium BD/advanced BE IIRC) but this is not considered ideal.
 
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