Baffling Dressage comments / scores

zizz said:
Just to get back to the original post, my interpretation of this is that the first canter, whilst looking lovely was lacking engagement and suppleness, hence the on forehand comments, whilst the second canter scored higher because of the increased impulsion. Why didn't you go and speak to the judge at the end and ask them to explain the marks? The comment/mark disparity is more likely to be a writer error, unless you have been writing for the same judge before, it is quite easy to muck up a few sheets!
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I never thought to actually speak to the judge! I would be afraid they would think I was complaining rather than just curious. Yes I do think it may be what you suggest - actually a friend of mine showed me a vid of canter 1 afterwards and though I wouldn't say on the forehand exactly I can see what would have let it down for sure. And the place he was most out of control in canter 2 was going away from the judge so it may be she missed the fact it was almost a bog off and only saw the more foreword canter I got as I circled round....
 
At an event (ODE) a couple of weeks ago, judged by a VERY well known male eventers mother... I got a 30 (70%). I got a 9 for my halt (mark was purely for halt, not for centre line too) and the comment of 'perfect halt'- WELL GIVE ME A BLOOMIN 10 THEN!!

Also, which I found odd. We didn't score less than a 7 the whole way through, along with the 9 and an 8 yet got 3 x 6's and a 7 for the collectives. I thought the collectives were supposed to reflect the test? Seemed a bit odd to me.

Still, I didn't complain- she is a very harsh judge and there were marks in the 50's and 60's in my section was was pretty chuffed with 30!
 
noname said:
I mainly do BD, and all I can say is that it's just as bad if not worse than Unaff or BE. It's the same judges! I think that because of the heavy criticism of judging BD are fixated on the movements and are not considering the quality of the horses basic gaits. They are mostly fault and error based marking.

Judge training and hideous directives are not helping. They are now marking up stiff and bad moving horses because they manage to mince round the arena in the right places with absolutely no rhythm, impulsion, bend or uphill tendency!
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I find this a bit odd - all of my judge training sessions have been encouraging us to mark quality even if there are problems with the accuracy of movements, which is the opposite of what you're suggesting here.
 
Blythe Spirit said:
I never thought to actually speak to the judge! I would be afraid they would think I was complaining rather than just curious. Yes I do think it may be what you suggest - actually a friend of mine showed me a vid of canter 1 afterwards and though I wouldn't say on the forehand exactly I can see what would have let it down for sure. And the place he was most out of control in canter 2 was going away from the judge so it may be she missed the fact it was almost a bog off and only saw the more foreword canter I got as I circled round....
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Videoing is definitely really useful, and do bear in mind what the judge can actually see from C. I was judging a test this weekend with a trot-walk-trot trans going away from me at the far end of the long side, and to be honest, had the horses stuck their noses out like planks, I couldn't see it from the car. Sometimes I do think tests are designed to make life hard for teh poor judge...
 
katdibbits said:
I find this a bit odd - all of my judge training sessions have been encouraging us to mark quality even if there are problems with the accuracy of movements, which is the opposite of what you're suggesting here.
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Ditto Kat - I would argue that we are actually discouraged from marking up stiff and bad moving horses!

katdibbits said:
Videoing is definitely really useful, and do bear in mind what the judge can actually see from C. I was judging a test this weekend with a trot-walk-trot trans going away from me at the far end of the long side, and to be honest, had the horses stuck their noses out like planks, I couldn't see it from the car. Sometimes I do think tests are designed to make life hard for teh poor judge...
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Exactly, similarly there are tests with a G&R on a diagonal going away from the judge. We can't see the movement that well!

Also please remember when you watch your video back you have the opportunity to watch it time and time again, in slo-mo, etc. The judge has one opportunity to make a split second decision, whilst trying to give a sensible, useful and positive comment, amongst all the other movements and probably after watching 30-odd horses ;)

We are only human after all...... :)
 
oh i know its not easy - when I worked for a RS in Kent I used to judge the open show dressage myself and at bigger more ambitious venues I have often written for the judge so I know its quite challenging to do. :) but sometimes I am still amazed hoe different the perception is of the person sitting in the car v's the person riding the horse
 
katdibbits said:
I find this a bit odd - all of my judge training sessions have been encouraging us to mark quality even if there are problems with the accuracy of movements, which is the opposite of what you're suggesting here.
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Exactly why all the big warmbloods tend to score so much higher than an accurate little cob.....I work as a show steward at a BD venue and see MANY different judges of all levels, and 9 out of 10 all mark the way you are describing, marking the quality of the horse and its paces despite it making some bloomin massive mistakes because said fancy warmblood is too hot for rider to deal with. Shame really when accuracy and obedience should play just as big a part as quality of paces. Yes quality of paces is a section in the collectives, but so is obedience and acceptance of the aids, I do wonder sometimes at BD and the way they train judges. Shame because it ultimately will shoot them in the foot, those with correct and accurate horses who would easily do a medium test will be put off BD because they cant afford the fancy (yet silly) warmblood and will therefore never get more than a 6 or 7 if they are lucky.
 
rising_promise said:
At an event (ODE) a couple of weeks ago, judged by a VERY well known male eventers mother... I got a 30 (70%). I got a 9 for my halt (mark was purely for halt, not for centre line too) and the comment of 'perfect halt'- WELL GIVE ME A BLOOMIN 10 THEN!!

Also, which I found odd. We didn't score less than a 7 the whole way through, along with the 9 and an 8 yet got 3 x 6's and a 7 for the collectives. I thought the collectives were supposed to reflect the test? Seemed a bit odd to me.

Still, I didn't complain- she is a very harsh judge and there were marks in the 50's and 60's in my section was was pretty chuffed with 30!
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Yes collectives are supposed to correlate to the test, but sometimes you may have ridden wonderfully accurately and got great marks throughout the test, yet when it comes to the collectives (which mark your riding, horses paces etc) it may not have been 'wow' enough to warrant the 7+ marks. I find most judges reserve the 7 and above marks for very expressive moving horses in the paces section, even adding up Gareth Hughes' sheet recently his horse (who was young and making mistakes, a few 4's littered around the sheet), his riding got a 8 as he is a beautiful rider, paces got an 8, then 7's if I remember correctly for everything else. So do the 4's relate to the 8's and 7's? Not really, but the quality of the horse and the quality of riding ensured he got a good collective score compared to some of the mistakes in the test.

Very annoying about the halt though - poor choice of words if she wasnt going to give a 10! Great halt would have been far more appropriate. Sometimes they dont quite think through what they are saying to their writer then its too late unfortunately. I do think judges are afraid to give out 10's, in all my time writing for judges and now as a show steward working each weekend I've never seen a single 10. A few 9's but never a 10 - I think they forget that 10 means excellent, it doesnt mean 'best thing I've ever seen and will never see better in my life'!
 
kc100 said:
Exactly why all the big warmbloods tend to score so much higher than an accurate little cob.....I work as a show steward at a BD venue and see MANY different judges of all levels, and 9 out of 10 all mark the way you are describing, marking the quality of the horse and its paces despite it making some bloomin massive mistakes because said fancy warmblood is too hot for rider to deal with. Shame really when accuracy and obedience should play just as big a part as quality of paces. Yes quality of paces is a section in the collectives, but so is obedience and acceptance of the aids, I do wonder sometimes at BD and the way they train judges. Shame because it ultimately will shoot them in the foot, those with correct and accurate horses who would easily do a medium test will be put off BD because they cant afford the fancy (yet silly) warmblood and will therefore never get more than a 6 or 7 if they are lucky.
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This is certainly the opposite of my experience... I have an accurate and rhythmical little Welsh and we win a lot and often score over 70 (at BD novice) because he's correct. He is not big moving at all. In my experience the people who moan about the big moving horses winning everything need to work harder! Whenever we haven't done well and ive disagreed with the judge ive showed my trainer the video and she's picked it apart too!! And then we've worked on the issues.
 
kc100 said:
Yes collectives are supposed to correlate to the test, but sometimes you may have ridden wonderfully accurately and got great marks throughout the test, yet when it comes to the collectives (which mark your riding, horses paces etc) it may not have been 'wow' enough to warrant the 7+ marks. I find most judges reserve the 7 and above marks for very expressive moving horses in the paces section, even adding up Gareth Hughes' sheet recently his horse (who was young and making mistakes, a few 4's littered around the sheet), his riding got a 8 as he is a beautiful rider, paces got an 8, then 7's if I remember correctly for everything else. So do the 4's relate to the 8's and 7's? Not really, but the quality of the horse and the quality of riding ensured he got a good collective score compared to some of the mistakes in the test.

Very annoying about the halt though - poor choice of words if she wasnt going to give a 10! Great halt would have been far more appropriate. Sometimes they dont quite think through what they are saying to their writer then its too late unfortunately. I do think judges are afraid to give out 10's, in all my time writing for judges and now as a show steward working each weekend I've never seen a single 10. A few 9's but never a 10 - I think they forget that 10 means excellent, it doesnt mean 'best thing I've ever seen and will never see better in my life'!
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Was this an unaff event? Just wondering as unless you got a six in the actual test , the collectives shouldn't be lower. So they can't give you sevens , eights and nines in the rest the six or below for the collectives, its not allowed
 
charlie76 said:
Was this an unaff event? Just wondering as unless you got a six in the actual test , the collectives shouldn't be lower. So they can't give you sevens , eights and nines in the rest the six or below for the collectives, its not allowed
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Yes, it was the RC eventing qualifier. The judge is very well known though and judges BE aswell. I showed my sheet to a friend who judges BE and BD and she agreed, she shouldn't have given the collectives she did but this particular judge is well known for doing odd things and won't listen when she's told not to!
 
kc100 said:
Exactly why all the big warmbloods tend to score so much higher than an accurate little cob.....I work as a show steward at a BD venue and see MANY different judges of all levels, and 9 out of 10 all mark the way you are describing, marking the quality of the horse and its paces despite it making some bloomin massive mistakes because said fancy warmblood is too hot for rider to deal with. Shame really when accuracy and obedience should play just as big a part as quality of paces. Yes quality of paces is a section in the collectives, but so is obedience and acceptance of the aids, I do wonder sometimes at BD and the way they train judges. Shame because it ultimately will shoot them in the foot, those with correct and accurate horses who would easily do a medium test will be put off BD because they cant afford the fancy (yet silly) warmblood and will therefore never get more than a 6 or 7 if they are lucky.
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I think this used to be the case yrs ago - but now I often see an accurate little horse getting placed well above big moving but all over the place WB's. However this is at prelim and Novice - it may be harder to go up the levels on something less expressive. IMO Really dressage should mark training not genetics - all the training in the world wont give a cob a warmblood trot but marks should be given for a horse/rider combo doing the best with what they have - be that an overly expressive WB being sympathetically ridden to produce an accurate calm test or a cob complete with cobby action being ridden forward and round effectively to produce a good active accurate test. I have actually scored better on my cob X than on my unregistered Spanish type - no doubt which is more expressive, both can be obedient and focused but the cob has a better frame for lower level tests which is why I suspect she does better. if I trained both horses up the levels (As I aim to over the next two/three years I suspect the Spanish will overtake the cob at elementary level... but who knows ...
 
Go on YouTube and look for Corstan Rogue Trader's test from this year's Winter Nationals. He's a beautifully produced 13.2 Welsh pony and came 3rd in the Advanced Medium Championships.

Now tell me non-warmbloods can't succeed at the higher levels!
 
meardsall_millie said:
Go on YouTube and look for Corstan Rogue Trader's test from this year's Winter Nationals. He's a beautifully produced 13.2 Welsh pony and came 3rd in the Advanced Medium Championships.

Now tell me non-warmbloods can't succeed at the higher levels!
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I never meant that non-warmbloods cant succeed (of course they can and there are many examples), and I personally love to see an accurate native doing a lovely test!

However I was referring to Katdibbits comment, from her comment it seems she is training to be a judge with BD and they are teaching her and the other trainee judges to look for quality rather than accuracy (her words, not mine) - hence my comment about why warmbloods do better, and I feel it is a shame that BD are still preaching this attitude, accuracy and obedience SHOULD outweigh a glimpse of a quality trot from a more expressive (yet inaccurate) horse.

And my experience working at a BD venue, stewarding BD events each weekend and marking tests - if there is a warmblood in the class that is particularly expressive 9 times out of 10 it will win. Despite there being a lovely, accurate, well produced native up against it. It does seem that the non-warmbloods winning are the exception to the rule unfortunately, not the norm.

And before anyone complains that I am just moaning and need to work harder - the horse I ride is WB (and the devil as it turns out) and I've got a baby WB so I'm not on a native/non-warmblood and being lazy having a moan about scores. I cant compete at the moment due to horse illnesses so I am basing this on my job as a dressage show steward where I see this happen every weekend, week in week out. At a variety of levels, from Intro up to AM (never seen a non-warmblood in the Advanced or PSG classes we run).
 
BD judges are marking based on the scales of training so a relaxed rhythmic horse with good natural paces going forward to a steady contact will often score higher than an accurate one if that accuracy is achieved at the expense of relaxation and possibly loss of rhythm combined with limited paces, which is often seen at lower levels, therefore quality of work will be rewarded over an accurate but not so correctly developed horse, although the overall scores may level out.
It is all down to the individual opinion, some judges are more generous or forgiving than others, most seem to like a free moving horse that has a few moments of inattention or greenness over a restricted rather robotic type of test which is hard to mark down but equally will never score the really high marks that the horse with expression eventually should.
 
I have every intention of taking my plebby wee highland as far as he can go. He's competing elementary, often alongside many other non-warmbloods, and schooling medium. He's only 8 so hopefully we have plenty of time to hit at least AM. He actually scores higher at elementary than he did at prelim, though I couldn't really give a monkeys if he beats the flashy warmbloods provided he is working correctly. I can't control the judge's thoughts, but I can control his training.

A bit off topic, sorry.
 
As for collective marks - please do correct me if I'm wrong - but I've never been aware of a rule that says you can only score a 6 for example in the collectives if there is at least one 6 elsewhere on the sheet? Its definitely not in the BD rule book anyway!

I can easily see why a judge, who may have marked 7-9 on a test throughout (as each movement is exactly that - a movement), may then only mark a 6 on paces for example. The movements may have been very correct but paces cannot be given any more than 6 because they dont have the freedom and expression to warrant a higher mark. Yes they may be regular, which would correlate to the meaning of a 6 (satisfactory) but they are not 7 (fairly good). Paces are of course a factor in each movement, but providing the paces are regular in each movement the judge will be looking beyond that to mark the movement.

Again it is easy to see why it might be possible to mark impulsion (the next collective mark) differently to the rest of the sheet - in the collectives they are looking for elasticity, working over the back, engagement of the hindquarters. You could easily have impulsion and use that to carry out the movements well to the level of marks in the 7-9 range, but the horse might not have the elasticity and full hindquarters engagement required to give a 7+ in the collectives.

Its the little notes in the brackets in the collectives on a sheet that will warrant the higher marks for collectives - yes you might have regular paces, impulsion, submission and correct riding to get you the higher marks for your movements, but the horse may be lacking the more subtle elements that are in brackets (elasticity, lightness, great hindquarter engagement, confidence, harmony etc) to warrant 7+ in the collectives.

Not saying its right for judges to vary the collectives and marks for the rest of the sheet wildly - and from experience of adding up hundreds of sheets most collective scores reflect the rest of the test, but there are occasions (going back to my Gareth Hughes example) where you can have some very high or very low scores for the movements yet the collectives do not match.
 
This thread has been really interesting, so thank you to all those who have contributed above.

For my part, I might as well shut up shop today if a flashy warmblood is needed. When I bought my horse (Connemara x) I was very much NOT looking for a WB. I know it's a generalisation, but I wanted something fairly hardy, ideal to keep at home with a family, and something that wasn't too hot to ride. Cam certainly fits those requirements. But I intend to try to take him as far up the levels as I can.

We rode two fairly horrible BD prelim tests on Sunday and got 63 and 64%. It was a new test arena, he was a bit revved up and wasn't particularly listening, and our accuracy for various reasons went out the window. I was however delighted that despite having a bog pony, we got 7s (list 3a judge) for paces, but fairly we also got 6s for impulsion (engagement was underlined) and submission.

Last bit of my ramble.....

I recently purchased the FEI guidelines for judges book as I thought it would be a useful training tool. I will quote what it says on collectives:

"The collective marks should be a reflection of the entire test and a summary of the performance of horse and rider. Therefore the average of all collective marks should be in the same range as the average of all marks for the execution of the movements of test."

:)
 
Blythe Spirit said:
I think this used to be the case yrs ago - but now I often see an accurate little horse getting placed well above big moving but all over the place WB's. However this is at prelim and Novice - it may be harder to go up the levels on something less expressive. IMO Really dressage should mark training not genetics - all the training in the world wont give a cob a warmblood trot but marks should be given for a horse/rider combo doing the best with what they have - be that an overly expressive WB being sympathetically ridden to produce an accurate calm test or a cob complete with cobby action being ridden forward and round effectively to produce a good active accurate test. I have actually scored better on my cob X than on my unregistered Spanish type - no doubt which is more expressive, both can be obedient and focused but the cob has a better frame for lower level tests which is why I suspect she does better. if I trained both horses up the levels (As I aim to over the next two/three years I suspect the Spanish will overtake the cob at elementary level... but who knows ...
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Yep, I think that kind of judge is in the minority now. Kokopelli won her first ever Elementary test a couple of weeks ago on her little Louie and that was despite being up against big flashy warmbloods. They marked correct work and accurate riding and she got the win, despite the others looking more impressive. It's looking past the surface and judging what the horse is actually doing that is important and on the whole, I believe most judges do this.
 
kc100 said:
I never meant that non-warmbloods cant succeed (of course they can and there are many examples), and I personally love to see an accurate native doing a lovely test!

However I was referring to Katdibbits comment, from her comment it seems she is training to be a judge with BD and they are teaching her and the other trainee judges to look for quality rather than accuracy (her words, not mine) - hence my comment about why warmbloods do better, and I feel it is a shame that BD are still preaching this attitude, accuracy and obedience SHOULD outweigh a glimpse of a quality trot from a more expressive (yet inaccurate) horse.
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We will have to agree to disagree then. I am completely the opposite!! The quality of the training and the horses paces for me should be the priority. Just because the horse has done it in the right place does not mean they did it well. I would rather a correctly ridden, quality transition, where the horse is in an uphill balance that is a stride or two early or late than a rubbish transition bang on the marker.

Equally why do people presume that the warmbloods / big moving horses are not accurate and obedient? They can do both. And the horses that do both should get much higher marks!!
 
Interesting that people here seem to be conflating "quality" with "big moving" - that's not at all what we're taught to look for, a few chips on shoulders I wonder? Quality means good rhythmical paces, clearly 4,2 and 3 beat respectively, tracking up well and the horse using its body properly moving from behind into a soft contact, no matter whether it's a cob, a warmblood, a TB or a hunter. Unless a horse has serious conformation issues, it can always be schooled to move in at least a reasonably loose, free way with clear differences in extensions and some ability to collect. None of these things require the horse to be a warmblood! Also interesting that people are suggesting I said we don't look for obedience - of course we do, and that's not what I said. In fact, I didn't mention obedience at all, and a horse that does enormous spooks will get marked down. I think rather than moaning about the judge, people should focus on their own training, guided by what the judges see from C. I bet they'd be amazed at how their marks improve!
 
kc100 said:
Exactly why all the big warmbloods tend to score so much higher than an accurate little cob.....I work as a show steward at a BD venue and see MANY different judges of all levels, and 9 out of 10 all mark the way you are describing, marking the quality of the horse and its paces despite it making some bloomin massive mistakes because said fancy warmblood is too hot for rider to deal with.
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funny - I've never seen that while organising, judging or stewarding! An accurate little cob should always score higher than a WB on its back legs. A WB behaving beautifully will probably score higher than the cob because it's made to do the job - although I have a friend with a supercob that regularly scores 75%+, so that kinda nixes that theory. But what I was responding to was someone claiming that stiff, mincing horses doing everything on the marker get bigger scores - which is absolute rubbish.
 
Jango said:
This is certainly the opposite of my experience... I have an accurate and rhythmical little Welsh and we win a lot and often score over 70 (at BD novice) because he's correct. He is not big moving at all. In my experience the people who moan about the big moving horses winning everything need to work harder! Whenever we haven't done well and ive disagreed with the judge ive showed my trainer the video and she's picked it apart too!! And then we've worked on the issues.
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THIS! :-)
 
Just a point on why a horse can make a whopping mistake and still score highly is that marks can only be deducted for that part of the test and later in the collectives. So...a horse that does a big spook/misses a transition/has a paddy will only be marked down for that particular section of the test. If the rest of the test is full of quality and correct work, especially in the double scores, like the walk, depending on test...it will still get a higher percentage overall than a horse that was well behaved and accurate throughout but perhaps not quite as correct in the movement. And that isn't judging a cobs movement against a warmbloods...it's about assessing the movement of the individual horse and how much room there is for improvement.

Someone recently missed out an entire section of collected trot, just didn't do it...forgot, but still came away with the win, because the scores in the rest of the test were high enough to do that.

I look at dressage tests upside-down. The wrong way around. It used to help me and I know it has helped the people I have coached over the years. I'll explain...

Every single entry starts the test on a level pegging. Every entry goes down the centre line with 100% and from then on in, they will lose marks according to the test they produce. That test is split into movements and each movement is scored out of 10. When a movement is completed...regardless of how bad it was, the slate is once again wiped clean and you have your score of ten back. SO...even if you completely forget to do something or have a horrible transition/movement...it will only affect the score for that particular part of the test. If you move on and forget it, concentrate on the rest of the test and get the best work you can, you can absolutely make up for any mistake.

I don't think it is fair to criticise a horse that spooks or goes wrong and does well...because it will have deserved it through the rest of the work. It's not a judge marking through rose tinted glasses at the big fancy warmblood...it is judge marking the test as they should...not allowing one part of it to affect the scores in another part.

Hope that makes some sort of sense.
 
Having only recently ventured into BD for the first time, the type and range of ponies and horses at novice has actually quite surprised me - lots more ponies and cobs doing well which has to be good and these are ones doing well and probably working elementary at home.
 
That's a really good way of explaining it GG. At training we're taught to make ourselves jump from 8s to 3s back up to 8s if necessary, giving the score deserved for each individual movement. One of the things that pro riders are really good at is putting their mistakes behind them within seconds, so as not to let it affect the rest of the test, it's something that's quite difficult to learn to do and only really comes with experience.

I think it's really about training your horse to be the best it can be. The winner of one of the classes that I judged at weekend was an incredible trad coloured. Full mane and feathers job, and the most beautiful athletic paces that were clearly the result of someone putting time, patience and knowledge in. He was fantastically well balanced, stretched down properly in his free walk (most didn't, they were THROWING marks away!), and was obviously working at home at a higher level than he was competing - he found it easy and it made a big difference to the overall look of the test. I gave all 7s and 8s and it was a really nice reminder of why we get involved in dressage.
 
Just being irritating here... but...

I think it is much easier to do well at Prelim-Ele level when you are riding a pony/cob etc.

Smaller paces, easier to ride in balance and accurately.... Best scoring tests I have ever done have been on these types.

As much as it is nice to see all sorts of breeds doing well, nothing much grates me as much as those saying 'oh didn't we do well beating all those warmbloods....'
 
RachelFerd said:
Just being irritating here... but...

I think it is much easier to do well at Prelim-Ele level when you are riding a pony/cob etc.

Smaller paces, easier to ride in balance and accurately.... Best scoring tests I have ever done have been on these types.

As much as it is nice to see all sorts of breeds doing well, nothing much grates me as much as those saying 'oh didn't we do well beating all those warmbloods....'
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I'll be irritating in return..... ;)

I am indifferent to beating WBs, cobs, or the milk cart pony. I just want to work on being the best we can with the skill set/natural abilities we have. I am no Charlotte Dujardin and Cam is no Valegro, but I just like to know at the end of the day that we did our best, and that is good enough for me. :)

ETA - we did our best AND had fun doing it. :) x
 
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RachelFerd said:
Just being irritating here... but...

I think it is much easier to do well at Prelim-Ele level when you are riding a pony/cob etc.

Smaller paces, easier to ride in balance and accurately.... Best scoring tests I have ever done have been on these types.

As much as it is nice to see all sorts of breeds doing well, nothing much grates me as much as those saying 'oh didn't we do well beating all those warmbloods....'
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On the other hand, at prelim, there's very little in the way of training to mark - it really is steering round a few basic turns, and lots of trotting / cantering around the arena. This is why I've been told F does better at elementary than prelim - there's more for him to do and show what he's capable of, rather than just trotting around showing off his rather agricultural paces. I agree it's easier to keep a pony or small horse together in 20x40 than it is a big warmblood who can only fit a few strides in down the long side, but there's more to it than that.
 
JFTD said:
On the other hand, at prelim, there's very little in the way of training to mark - it really is steering round a few basic turns, and lots of trotting / cantering around the arena.
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Got to disagree on that. The lack of more complex movements at prelim means the judge can focus more on the way the horse is going ie working through from behind, suppleness etc.
The reason why the warmbloods don't seem to do so well at the lower levels is rider ability / understanding of what is required. Far too many have their paces restricted to make riding the test easier. A bit like getting a porsche and removing the spark plugs from half the cylinders. This lack of forward riding is very evident to good judges and will rightly be marked down significantly.
Riders of warmbloods at the lower levels need to learn how to tap in to and handle the power of the horse rather than shut it down. If this happened then the marks would come. Riding an 18hh horse that looks like a WB has made me very aware of the temptation to throttle back and the resulting score line. If you have a big moving horse then you have to ride it big and brave, not be a safe little mouse.
 
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