Baffling Dressage comments / scores

[Fuzzypuff]

Interesting that people here seem to be conflating "quality" with "big moving" - that's not at all what we're taught to look for, a few chips on shoulders I wonder? Quality means good rhythmical paces, clearly 4,2 and 3 beat respectively, tracking up well and the horse using its body properly moving from behind into a soft contact, no matter whether it's a cob, a warmblood, a TB or a hunter. Unless a horse has serious conformation issues, it can always be schooled to move in at least a reasonably loose, free way with clear differences in extensions and some ability to collect. None of these things require the horse to be a warmblood! Also interesting that people are suggesting I said we don't look for obedience - of course we do, and that's not what I said. In fact, I didn't mention obedience at all, and a horse that does enormous spooks will get marked down. I think rather than moaning about the judge, people should focus on their own training, guided by what the judges see from C. I bet they'd be amazed at how their marks improve!

Agree with this, I think some are confusing the quality of the natural paces and quality of the way of going. Way of going should always be the priority. Warmbloods can score highly as they tend to have natural ability to work in a way that is specified in the directives - swinging over the back with suppleness, elasticity and engagement. This doesn't mean that they will always score well as the rider does still need to put the work in to get there!

My horse is a warmblood, he has had a good chunk of the last year off due to injury. Last year we were scoring average 65% in elementary classes, our scores were mainly restricted by tension. Since his time off I have worked really hard on the quality of his work and in our shows since then we have averaged more around 70%, even with mistakes in almost every one of those tests - because the way of going is now better we are scoring 8s for many movements and this balances out the 4s in some of the others!! He may have natural talent however he is not easy and I don't particularly have the talent to match him so I do have to work at it and it is a little demoralising for others to assume we have won a class due to him being a warmblood and not due to my own blood, sweat and tears (of which there have been many)...

 

[JFTDWS]

Got to disagree on that. The lack of more complex movements at prelim means the judge can focus more on the way the horse is going ie working through from behind, suppleness etc.

Exactly - thus a horse with a natural advantage in their basic way of going will score more highly with less training at prelim.

 

[Pigeon]

PaddyMonty, good post!

My shuffly little tb is in no way comparable in paces to a warmblood, but I still over correct him - it feels like we're powering along and then I look back at the video and it's really not the case. I need to chill out and let him show off a little more

 

[chestnut cob]

PaddyMonty, good post!

My shuffly little tb is in no way comparable in paces to a warmblood, but I still over correct him - it feels like we're powering along and then I look back at the video and it's really not the case. I need to chill out and let him show off a little more

It's so easy to do though! I have a little whizzy horse who is forward going and can be super sharp. Because he has a naturally buzzy personality and a history of wanting to whizz off, I over correct and slow down too much too. All I end up with is a shuffly horse. So I'm the same as you - I need to relax and let him power along a bit more (now that he's schooling well and behaving!) rather than forgetting what my legs are for!

 

[HufflyPuffly]

PaddyMonty, good post!

My shuffly little tb is in no way comparable in paces to a warmblood, but I still over correct him - it feels like we're powering along and then I look back at the video and it's really not the case. I need to chill out and let him show off a little more

Same here, guilty as charged for being..... a trot killer !

Topaz is in no way like a warmblood, but her paces are huge and I struggle to sit to them sometimes never mind anything else. I'm making progress with allowing her forwards, no idea how we are going to cope at medium though with having to sit to her trot.

I have to say though that although Topaz has very active paces and where ever possible we are generally very accurate we didn't score as well at prelim. However this was because her tension absolutely killed the scores, when it was all laid bare with no complex movements to hide behind judges (quite rightly) marked us down. Then when we went back in on the same day to do a novice test, she would be more relaxed and have more to think about so the scores went up.

From my somewhat limited experience, BD judging seems very fair and appears to follow the scales of training well, though to go back to the OP I have seen the odd comment which seemed at odds with the test or score given.

x x

 

[Fun Times]

Excellent post by paddymonty. I continually get marked down for playing it safe on my relatively big moving horse because I close him down so much he becomes boring looking. Now paddymonty, I would hugely appreciate any tips to stop this happening!!

 

[PolarSkye]

Exactly why all the big warmbloods tend to score so much higher than an accurate little cob.....I work as a show steward at a BD venue and see MANY different judges of all levels, and 9 out of 10 all mark the way you are describing, marking the quality of the horse and its paces despite it making some bloomin massive mistakes because said fancy warmblood is too hot for rider to deal with. Shame really when accuracy and obedience should play just as big a part as quality of paces. Yes quality of paces is a section in the collectives, but so is obedience and acceptance of the aids, I do wonder sometimes at BD and the way they train judges. Shame because it ultimately will shoot them in the foot, those with correct and accurate horses who would easily do a medium test will be put off BD because they cant afford the fancy (yet silly) warmblood and will therefore never get more than a 6 or 7 if they are lucky.

Don't tar all judges with the same brush . . . there are plenty who don't fall for the charms of the warmblood . . . including my lovely trainer who also judges and has taken a thoroughbred to advanced medium.

P

 

[PaddyMonty]

Now paddymonty, I would hugely appreciate any tips to stop this happening!!

I cant give you a magic answer but will outline what has changed the way I ride.
Firstly I am now trained by two listed judges, one is list 3, the other list 2. Both want to see far more forward activity from my boy, way beyond what I felt was required. They cant both be wrong so that was the start. Then one of them rode my boy and made it very plain I was just scratching the surface. Comparing what I was seeing to vids of me riding him were a real eye opener.
Secondly, I now always, always, always ask for more walk, trot & canter than I currently have just to check if I really am riding the horse to the max.
Third was a attitude change. One of the trainers pointed out that whilst the horse was performing at a 7 sort of level, he was capable of 8's or 9's. Sure pushing for this may result in making mistakes but so what, if you dont try you will never achieve.
Fourth, Making all the work forward, active and powered now feels normal. If we slip back to the old, safe, comfortable way of working it feels bleurgh.
Finally, having a goal has really help to focus me. Having qualified for prelim regionals which was something I didn't expect I now really really dont want to be towards the bottom of the score sheet. Ok, we aren't going to get to the nationals but horse is capable of a top ten at the place and I feel it is only right that I give him that opportunity which means changing how I ride him.
So all in all, no one thing but a combination of elements

 

[_GG_]

I cant give you a magic answer but will outline what has changed the way I ride.
Firstly I am now trained by two listed judges, one is list 3, the other list 2. Both want to see far more forward activity from my boy, way beyond what I felt was required. They cant both be wrong so that was the start. Then one of them rode my boy and made it very plain I was just scratching the surface. Comparing what I was seeing to vids of me riding him were a real eye opener.
Secondly, I now always, always, always ask for more walk, trot & canter than I currently have just to check if I really am riding the horse to the max.
Third was a attitude change. One of the trainers pointed out that whilst the horse was performing at a 7 sort of level, he was capable of 8's or 9's. Sure pushing for this may result in making mistakes but so what, if you dont try you will never achieve.
Fourth, Making all the work forward, active and powered now feels normal. If we slip back to the old, safe, comfortable way of working it feels bleurgh.
Finally, having a goal has really help to focus me. Having qualified for prelim regionals which was something I didn't expect I now really really dont want to be towards the bottom of the score sheet. Ok, we aren't going to get to the nationals but horse is capable of a top ten at the place and I feel it is only right that I give him that opportunity which means changing how I ride him.
So all in all, no one thing but a combination of elements

This is why I made the post about how dressage is scored PaddyMonty.

A sheet full of 8's with one or two 3's or 4's if you make a major mistake or two, will still score higher than a sheet full of 6's or 7's.

Why wouldn't you throw caution to the wind, when it is caution that is holding you back?

 

[PaddyMonty]

This is why I made the post about how dressage is scored PaddyMonty.

A sheet full of 8's with one or two 3's or 4's if you make a major mistake or two, will still score higher than a sheet full of 6's or 7's.

Why wouldn't you throw caution to the wind, when it is caution that is holding you back?

Absolutely. Harry Payne (one of my trainers) summed it up in an article in BD mag looking at riding tests. In reference to the entry down centre line he stated that judges want to see confident forward powered entry even if it means turning at C a little early. What they don't want is safe mice.
I'm now convinced it's better to be the eagle that sometimes misses the mouse than the mouse that's waiting to be eaten.

 

[meardsall_millie]

Some wise words PM.

I'm just going to throw a word of caution in there though (aimed at the wider readership and not directly at you) - just be careful that you're not asking more than your horse can currently cope with. More power, expression and 'sit' is the goal but there's a fine line between that and pushing beyond the limits. What judges really don't want to see are horses careering around, only semi-controlled, and grinding onto the forehand!

 

[_GG_]

Some wise words PM.

I'm just going to throw a word of caution in there though (aimed at the wider readership and not directly at you) - just be careful that you're not asking more than your horse can currently cope with. More power, expression and 'sit' is the goal but there's a fine line between that and pushing beyond the limits. What judges really don't want to see are horses careering around, only semi-controlled, and grinding onto the forehand!

This is very true. I think most in this thread, on this forum actually understand that so also understand what is meant by "more" but your point is very valid as you say, for the wider audience or those that may not understand.

 

[Fun Times]

Right that has decided me that at skipton horse trials on sunday am going to dressage like I damn well mean it and not like a mouse!