Ban all hunts

[Nancykitt]

SG, this thread is about the LACS proposal to ban all hunting. I myself didn't see it as an arena for another debate on foxhunting, although there is always a possibility that this will happen on this forum.
I go out with a bloodhound pack and in the past have hunted with drag packs. The drag pack once killed a grey squirrel in the pub car park before we set off (it was all over in a couple of seconds, pretty much before we'd realised what had happened). Other than that, I have never, personally, been involved in a hunt where anything has been killed.
Under the LACS proposal draghunting and bloodhound packs would also be banned. I haven't explicitly seen your views on this as most of the argument seems to have gone back to the 'killing animals' argument.
I'd like someone to explain - or at least try to explain - why it would be a good thing to ban the sort of hunting that I now take part in

 

[Smurf's Gran]

SG, this thread is about the LACS proposal to ban all hunting. I myself didn't see it as an arena for another debate on foxhunting, although there is always a possibility that this will happen on this forum.
I go out with a bloodhound pack and in the past have hunted with drag packs. The drag pack once killed a grey squirrel in the pub car park before we set off (it was all over in a couple of seconds, pretty much before we'd realised what had happened). Other than that, I have never, personally, been involved in a hunt where anything has been killed.
Under the LACS proposal draghunting and bloodhound packs would also be banned. I haven't explicitly seen your views on this as most of the argument seems to have gone back to the 'killing animals' argument.
I'd like someone to explain - or at least try to explain - why it would be a good thing to ban the sort of hunting that I now take part in

NancyKitt, I have no issues with Hunting within the law - I think it is probably great fun! and had I been younger, fitter and with a suitable horse, I would probably be doing it myself. I am assuming that LACS probably want all hunting banned as its incredibly difficult to police the law in regard to illegal hunting. Pro hunters on here are defensive in the extreme in their belief that wrong doing in the hunting field does not exist - really ?? I find that's naïve, what not ever ??.
Also we have the info from Ladyaga and Alec's Swan's admission (on a previous thread) that he hunts illegally and will continue to do so. Though you have not seen illegal activity yourself (and this is good) it seems there is some evidence out there, albeit hard to prove in a court of law in order for a successful prosecution to be brought.

You are right! why should LACS challenge drag hunting ! I would say this is because there is a firm belief that something else is going on.
The most helpful thing would be for those who hunt to have enough respect for their sport to actually care what others think, and to keep it within the law and self police, yet on this forum we have an arrogant self righteousness and insults directed at anyone who dares to challenge. This does the legal hunting fraternity no favours.

 

[LittleRooketRider]

NancyKitt, I have no issues with Hunting within the law - I think it is probably great fun! and had I been younger, fitter and with a suitable horse, I would probably be doing it myself. I am assuming that LACS probably want all hunting banned as its incredibly difficult to police the law in regard to illegal hunting. Pro hunters on here are defensive in the extreme in their belief that wrong doing in the hunting field does not exist - really ?? I find that's naïve, what not ever ??.
Also we have the info from Ladyaga and Alec's Swan's admission (on a previous thread) that he hunts illegally and will continue to do so. Though you have not seen illegal activity yourself (and this is good) it seems there is some evidence out there, albeit hard to prove in a court of law in order for a successful prosecution to be brought.

You are right! why should LACS challenge drag hunting ! I would say this is because there is a firm belief that something else is going on.
The most helpful thing would be for those who hunt to have enough respect for their sport to actually care what others think, and to keep it within the law and self police, yet on this forum we have an arrogant self righteousness and insults directed at anyone who dares to challenge. This does the legal hunting fraternity no favours.

SG as I have said in my previous post I find it VERY hard to believe that those wanting a full ban of all hunts to be solely if at all concerened with animal welfare...having witnessed and heard reports of antis/sabs causing harm to animals "involved" in the hunt: driving into ponies being ridden, spraying hounds, drawing hound across busy roads, shining laserlights in horse's eyes are just a few things. The fact however, that they want to ban ALL hunts including drag/trail/clean-boot hunts, some of which have been operating pre-ban simply cofirms to me that they a) want to make a point..probably something along the lines of "Victory is ours" etc, and b) it is very much a class war. and c) they haven't a clue what their rabbiting on about.

Ok..they may be misusung/misinterpreting their derogaory terms particularly "inbred" (a very popular term of theirs) I'd syill liek to know how the fact that I dress smartly/traditionally and ride a horse to hounds on a saturday (and sometimes midweek) makes me the product of inbreeding?

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Duplicate

 

[Smurf's Gran]

SG as I have said in my previous post I find it VERY hard to believe that those wanting a full ban of all hunts to be solely if at all concerened with animal welfare...having witnessed and heard reports of antis/sabs causing harm to animals "involved" in the hunt: driving into ponies being ridden, spraying hounds, drawing hound across busy roads, shining laserlights in horse's eyes are just a few things. The fact however, that they want to ban ALL hunts including drag/trail/clean-boot hunts, some of which have been operating pre-ban simply cofirms to me that they a) want to make a point..probably something along the lines of "Victory is ours" etc, and b) it is very much a class war. and c) they haven't a clue what their rabbiting on about.

Ok..they may be misusung/misinterpreting their derogaory terms particularly "inbred" (a very popular term of theirs) I'd syill liek to know how the fact that I dress smartly/traditionally and ride a horse to hounds on a saturday (and sometimes midweek) makes me the product of inbreeding?

LRR, I don't agree with this behaviour any more than you do. Being against fox hunting does not make me on the side of the hunt sab either. (and I think this is probably where the majority of the population sit)
However, it does seem to have become a hardened battle, with neither side being rational tbh - and I think some of the pro fox hunt set on here seem just as entrenched in their views as the hunt sabs you mention.

 

[Maesfen]

Can I just say, that regardless of whatever you were asking us, (whether about hunting or people who regularly whip their horse, tax dodgers, wife beaters or anything at all) to tell you about it along with names and places, just because you 'want to know'.
Why on earth would we tell you, a complete stranger who seems intent on poo stirring, about something that might get someone else into trouble when it's nobody's business but their own or the authorities - but its certainly not your business to grill us on it?

 

[Fellewell]

Can I just say, that regardless of whatever you were asking us, (whether about hunting or people who regularly whip their horse, tax dodgers, wife beaters or anything at all) to tell you about it along with names and places, just because you 'want to know'.
Why on earth would we tell you, a complete stranger who seems intent on poo stirring, about something that might get someone else into trouble when it's nobody's business but their own or the authorities - but its certainly not your business to grill us on it?

Well said.

Antis believe hype, not science. Thousands and thousands of foxes die slow lingering deaths on the roads every year. During the mating season the roads are littered with juveniles. Where are the antis then? Too busy conducting some kind of scurrilous class war whilst bandying about libellous stories designed to maintain their profile in the media.
They could take a leaf out of Luxembourg or Germany's book and look into protecting wild animals on roads but that wouldn't fit their agenda or indeed their policy of happily luring hounds on to roads. Animal lovers? Don't make me laugh!

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Can I just say, that regardless of whatever you were asking us, (whether about hunting or people who regularly whip their horse, tax dodgers, wife beaters or anything at all) to tell you about it along with names and places, just because you 'want to know'.
Why on earth would we tell you, a complete stranger who seems intent on poo stirring, about something that might get someone else into trouble when it's nobody's business but their own or the authorities - but its certainly not your business to grill us on it?

If you are unwilling to engage in a debate, don't post, its simple. If you post on here people have the right to ask questions, because this is a forum, debate is encouraged and we have freedom of speech ( I should add we also have forum rules!). If you are not up to answering questions regarding what you are putting don't post. I would also add that there has been so many statements made on her from the Pro fox hunt lot that don't hold up to investigation at all , if you have an opinion and express it then be prepared to defend it. this seems is a problem for many.

As for getting people into trouble, what on earth are they doing that could get them into trouble ?? (wouldn't be something illegal would it ?) I would also appreciate it if you could avoid making personal assumptions re my motives etc of which there seems to be no other aim but to be insulting.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Well said.

Antis believe hype, not science. Thousands and thousands of foxes die slow lingering deaths on the roads every year. During the mating season the roads are littered with juveniles. Where are the antis then? Too busy conducting some kind of scurrilous class war whilst bandying about libellous stories designed to maintain their profile in the media.
They could take a leaf out of Luxembourg or Germany's book and look into protecting wild animals on roads but that wouldn't fit their agenda or indeed their policy of happily luring hounds on to roads. Animal lovers? Don't make me laugh!

Felliwell, anti's are not some strange breed who bounce around jumping in front of horses in balaclava's. The people you mention are sabs and are a very small minority (did you mean to say sabs ?) - anti's make up the 80%. When you say anti's believe hype etc, its not helpful to make an assumption here as you actually denigrating a very large majority of the population. I am an anti, not a sab.
I agree with you re other animals, and that more needs to be done - though this thread is about hunting, however, on a different topic we may agree

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Incidentally Maesfen, I have never asked for the details you refer to - you seen to assume I have - I would appreciate it if you could stick to what I have written ( and not what you think I might have written)

 

[Maesfen]

You have a way with words, I'll give you that but our points are as valid as your own, you just might be able to express yourself easier than many, myself included but I have no doubt in my mind that it's not just debate you are after but to poo stir and it's not a popular method to always be belittling the ones you are trying to intimidate with your words.

 

[Nancykitt]

There are lots of antis who are not sabs or LACS members but nevertheless cause lots of trouble. Two years ago we were drag hunting and at one point we were about to cross a road; a fox and two deer ran into the woods. A few hounds went in that direction but were quickly called off and no harm was done. That evening lots of us were bombarded (via facebook) with the most vile insults because apparently we stood at the side of the road and 'laughed while a beautiful vixen was murdered.' Now not only did that definitely not happen but quite what I've done to deserve the sort of threats and abuse I got, I don't know. And yes, I'm an inbred bloodthirsty toff who doesn't know what it's like to have to work for a living.

I honestly can't believe that 80% of the country subscribe to that view.

 

[Nancykitt]

Double posted

 

[Fellewell]

Felliwell, anti's are not some strange breed who bounce around jumping in front of horses in balaclava's. The people you mention are sabs and are a very small minority (did you mean to say sabs ?) - anti's make up the 80%. When you say anti's believe hype etc, its not helpful to make an assumption here as you actually denigrating a very large majority of the population. I am an anti, not a sab.
I agree with you re other animals, and that more needs to be done - though this thread is about hunting, however, on a different topic we may agree

Oh, well said SG! Hunt saboteurs are indeed strange people who bounce around frightening horses and wearing balaclavas (no apostrophe needed)and of course endangering life. At last we agree on something. But you can't hide in semantics. You need to address the other points and the management of the fox is very much about hunting so not a different topic at all. Also glad to see you are against harming hounds.

 

[Fellewell]

Felliwell, anti's are not some strange breed who bounce around jumping in front of horses in balaclava's. The people you mention are sabs and are a very small minority (did you mean to say sabs ?) - anti's make up the 80%. When you say anti's believe hype etc, its not helpful to make an assumption here as you actually denigrating a very large majority of the population. I am an anti, not a sab.
I agree with you re other animals, and that more needs to be done - though this thread is about hunting, however, on a different topic we may agree

And whatever you call yourself, you do believe the hype or else you wouldn't be on here asking a load of daft questions

 

[JenHunt]

Felliwell, anti's are not some strange breed who bounce around jumping in front of horses in balaclava's.
.....

I was about to reply to this ^^

Oh, well said SG! Hunt saboteurs are indeed strange people who bounce around frightening horses and wearing balaclavas (no apostrophe needed)and of course endangering life
.....

but Fellewell got there before me!

IME, that's exactly what saboteurs (which are the only active anti's I've come across) do - my horse (pony at the time, technically - he was 13.2, I was aged 9 or 10) and I have been pushed and shoved by saboteurs, another occasion saw my friend's pony was attacked with a knife, and yet another occasion we had fireworks launched in our (and our horses) faces.

I should also point out that the way i first read SG's statement was that the horses were the ones wearing the balaclavas!

 

[Smurf's Gran]

You have a way with words, I'll give you that but our points are as valid as your own, you just might be able to express yourself easier than many, myself included but I have no doubt in my mind that it's not just debate you are after but to poo stir and it's not a popular method to always be belittling the ones you are trying to intimidate with your words.

I will take your reference to articulacy as a compliment, also that you indicate I have any sort of point at all represents some positivity that was not there previously. However, as regards your references to my motives you are quite wrong. In regard to belittling others - have you seen some of the things posted about me ? I do admit to being a little piqued at some of the personal attacks - this is supposed to be a forum for adults but has resembled a playground slanging match at times - and not from my end either.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Oh, well said SG! Hunt saboteurs are indeed strange people who bounce around frightening horses and wearing balaclavas (no apostrophe needed)and of course endangering life. At last we agree on something. But you can't hide in semantics. You need to address the other points and the management of the fox is very much about hunting so not a different topic at all. Also glad to see you are against harming hounds.

Is hunting about management of the fox or is it to control foxes. I have seen both arguments used to justify hunting. Are you able to elaborate ? or will you just insult me instead ?

 

[Smurf's Gran]

There are lots of antis who are not sabs or LACS members but nevertheless cause lots of trouble. Two years ago we were drag hunting and at one point we were about to cross a road; a fox and two deer ran into the woods. A few hounds went in that direction but were quickly called off and no harm was done. That evening lots of us were bombarded (via facebook) with the most vile insults because apparently we stood at the side of the road and 'laughed while a beautiful vixen was murdered.' Now not only did that definitely not happen but quite what I've done to deserve the sort of threats and abuse I got, I don't know. And yes, I'm an inbred bloodthirsty toff who doesn't know what it's like to have to work for a living.

I honestly can't believe that 80% of the country subscribe to that view.

But Facebook is notorious for gossip, and things go viral very quickly. I don't think 80% of the public would approve of you being abused etc, or called names on the basis of class - that is appalling - but 80% do want fox hunting to remain banned, it does not mean they are going to take aggressive action - that is a small minority.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

And whatever you call yourself, you do believe the hype or else you wouldn't be on here asking a load of daft questions

Why spoil it by being personally insulting ?

 

[millikins]

Millikins - do you hunt and what are your experiences ? would be interested to know if you have first hand experience and what this indicates ?
From Lacs website it seems that there is plenty of illegal stuff going on in terms of hunting, but that it is hard to get a conviction as intent is hard to prove, and it also relies on someone videoing the evidence as it were, and this would require luck or very skilled timing to actually catch an illegal act, but as I'm sure all hunts are different ? it would be good to get some info

Not asking for personal information eh?

 

[gunnergundog]

Is hunting about management of the fox or is it to control foxes. I have seen both arguments used to justify hunting. Are you able to elaborate ? or will you just insult me instead ?

Why does it have to be either or?

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Not asking for personal information eh?

No actually, I was asking for some indication re your personal experiences - nowhere have I asked for names of people, the hunt involved etc. etc. as that would not be appropriate use of the forum and would infringe the forum rules also. In addition, as you were so sure that there is no illegal activity going on you must have deduced this information from somewhere.

 

[Fellewell]

Is hunting about management of the fox or is it to control foxes. I have seen both arguments used to justify hunting. Are you able to elaborate ? or will you just insult me instead ?

You never acknowledge people who have taken the time to try and explain things to you. You want all sorts of personal accounts/information to confirm all these wild accusations you and others have made. Then you claim that you are asking questions on the basis you know nothing about hunting. Which is it?

To answer another of your hair-splitting questions; management and control are the same thing.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Why does it have to be either or?

Because some arguments say that hunting has a conservation role re supporting / maintaining the fox population (and I have seen that raised on the HH forum before). The other argument ( and I have heard this one raised by the Countryside Alliance) is that fox hunting is needed to control the numbers of foxes. The two arguments seem contradictory to me.

(BTW thank you for asking, it makes a refreshing change to being told that my questions are stupid)

 

[popsdosh]

Is hunting about management of the fox or is it to control foxes. I have seen both arguments used to justify hunting. Are you able to elaborate ? or will you just insult me instead ?

To my mind it is about both what the ban has brought about is an inbalance in the natural selection that took place before the ban.
Where hounds are used to flush foxes to the gun all the foxes are shot young or old! Before the ban younger healthier foxes were more likely to get away and the older infirmed foxes ,or injured were caught.So it has upset the balance of the fox population around here and thats coming from somebody who has not hunted for 15 yrs or more. I have a vixen with cubs at the moent in a straw stack so we are using bales from the other end the hunt does not come here for various reasons and I enjoy seeing them around and they keep the rabbits down however feeling like that would not stop me hunting again as I know the healthy benefits the fox population enjoy from it.
Our biggest concern with fox welfare in these parts is the RSPCA sending van loads of feral foxes up into rural cambridgeshire to be released at night . For one I thought this was illegal. For 2 none of them survive more than a few days as they do not know how to cope. Word soon gets around about the arrival and the keepers soon clear them up I have even seen them run towards guns lamping when they have whistled them as they think theres a meal on offer. Now SG do you think that is good practice on the part of the RSPCA? As I am sure you may be open to a few questions to you.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

You never acknowledge people who have taken the time to try and explain things to you. You want all sorts of personal accounts/information to confirm all these wild accusations you and others have made. Then you claim that you are asking questions on the basis you know nothing about hunting. Which is it?

To answer another of your hair-splitting questions; management and control are the same thing.

Do you mean that foxes are maintained, so their numbers are healthy etc, which then fosters a need to control said numbers, and the control of numbers is actually the hunt ?? so it is all for the fun of the hunt?? (btw insults are not obligatory)

 

[Smurf's Gran]

To my mind it is about both what the ban has brought about is an inbalance in the natural selection that took place before the ban.
Where hounds are used to flush foxes to the gun all the foxes are shot young or old! Before the ban younger healthier foxes were more likely to get away and the older infirmed foxes ,or injured were caught.So it has upset the balance of the fox population around here and thats coming from somebody who has not hunted for 15 yrs or more.
Our biggest concern with fox welfare in these parts is the RSPCA sending van loads of feral foxes up into rural cambridgeshire to be released at night . For one I thought this was illegal. For 2 none of them survive more than a few days as they do not know how to cope. Word soon gets around about the arrival and the keepers soon clear them up I have even seen them run towards guns lamping when they have whistled them as they think theres a meal on offer. Now SG do you think that is good practice on the part of the RSPCA? As I am sure you may be open to a few questions to you.

No I don't think its good Popdosh, and this is not something I would approve of at all - btw thank you for your explanation - very helpful, and I do see your point of view. While I may not agree, I do have some understanding of this now.

 

[Nancykitt]

I suppose one of the points I was trying to make is that if there's a lot of illegal activity being reported on the LACS site (or similar) then it doesn't mean a great deal. LACS and the RSPCA were convinced we'd 'murdered' a fox when we definitely hadn't and it was reported in a way that left no doubt.
I'm sorry but I just can't believe the '80% of the public want the ban to stay.' So many factors will affect what people say. If someone from MORI came around my local area they are likely to find that 80% are very pro hunting. In another area they may find that things are different. So unless it was an absolutely massive sample (which the MORI sample wasn't - it was under 2000) I don't believe that it is a reliable indicator.

I've been thinking today about the whole business of banning all hunts. How would this be defined, I wonder? People would, presumably, be banned from being on a horse with dogs - of any kind- near them? Or perhaps it would be OK if the riders didn't dress up smartly and look like posh people who chase wild animals? It's barmy.

 

[millikins]

No actually, I was asking for some indication re your personal experiences - nowhere have I asked for names of people, the hunt involved etc. etc. as that would not be appropriate use of the forum and would infringe the forum rules also. In addition, as you were so sure that there is no illegal activity going on you must have deduced this information from somewhere.

I did not say that illegal hunting was not going on perhaps you could read what I wrote without blinkers. I said if no credible evidence has been found after 10 years of trying, the other side of the argument has to be that it doesn't in fact exist. If a group of people wish to regulate the activities of another they have to make a valid case for so doing. LACS and the RSPCA have signally failed to do so.