Ban use of horse whips?
- Thread starter Pilib
- Start date
stencilface
High upon a hillside
Hmm, I'm half and half with that one. I don't like using whips and can't remember the last time I actually used one on my horse - I don't even carry one anymore.
But trouble is more often than not they are used at the wrong time and for the wrong reason. I have seen too many people hit their horses after they stop in front of a fence they have been presented the horse at completely wrongly (ie rider belts horse at the fence, flapping reins etc).
But then don't think I agree with a complete ban? But then grey areas VERY difficult to police for already harassed stewards.
Hmmmm.
But trouble is more often than not they are used at the wrong time and for the wrong reason. I have seen too many people hit their horses after they stop in front of a fence they have been presented the horse at completely wrongly (ie rider belts horse at the fence, flapping reins etc).
But then don't think I agree with a complete ban? But then grey areas VERY difficult to police for already harassed stewards.
Hmmmm.
WishfulThinker
Well-Known Member
Me to, half with it.
After seeing CHILD whipping a pony so badly it was cantering an jumping and PEEING and pooing all at once it was that distressed, and no one stopped them - ok it was about 10 years ago, but that was at a big local SJ show as well.
But, what if someones horse refuses not through rider error, but because they are pissing about and a few short smacks behind the leg might be jsut what they need to remind them who is in charge.
After seeing CHILD whipping a pony so badly it was cantering an jumping and PEEING and pooing all at once it was that distressed, and no one stopped them - ok it was about 10 years ago, but that was at a big local SJ show as well.
But, what if someones horse refuses not through rider error, but because they are pissing about and a few short smacks behind the leg might be jsut what they need to remind them who is in charge.
millitiger
Well-Known Member
so they want to ban the use of whips and spurs as a punishment but not as an aid?
it would be correct in 99% of cases but there are some horses, few and far between, who will stop/ misbehave for a reason that not the rider's fault and sometimes a slap down the neck can help.
or do we teach horses that if they stop/nap/misbehave for no reason we won't do anything and will either retire or be eliminated? surely teaching some of the more intelligent horses that they can control us.
it would be correct in 99% of cases but there are some horses, few and far between, who will stop/ misbehave for a reason that not the rider's fault and sometimes a slap down the neck can help.
or do we teach horses that if they stop/nap/misbehave for no reason we won't do anything and will either retire or be eliminated? surely teaching some of the more intelligent horses that they can control us.
Wasrandyra
Well-Known Member
If used correctly then I don't see the problem, how they will monitor this I dont know.
You can abuse a horse in more ways that whipping it - bits, spurs etc etc where does it stop?
As far as I am aware mis-use of the whip in affiliated competition and the warms ups is not allowed.
You can abuse a horse in more ways that whipping it - bits, spurs etc etc where does it stop?
As far as I am aware mis-use of the whip in affiliated competition and the warms ups is not allowed.
Silverspring
Well-Known Member
I would never use a whips for punishment, I would use it to back up an aid.
Hand on heart I have never taken my hand off the rein to smack with the whip I do use it to ask a horse to work more from behind or to (try to) avoid them shying or napping by tapping on the shoulder.
It's madness to make a blanket ban on whips at shows, what next ban all saddle as so many don't fit and hurt the horse. Then ban bits with a single joint as they can hurt the horse's mouth, ban gags as they are clearly just for punishment...actually just ban people from keeping horses and all join PETA...yum vegan hippies.
Hand on heart I have never taken my hand off the rein to smack with the whip I do use it to ask a horse to work more from behind or to (try to) avoid them shying or napping by tapping on the shoulder.
It's madness to make a blanket ban on whips at shows, what next ban all saddle as so many don't fit and hurt the horse. Then ban bits with a single joint as they can hurt the horse's mouth, ban gags as they are clearly just for punishment...actually just ban people from keeping horses and all join PETA...yum vegan hippies.
ladyt25
Well-Known Member
I partically agree but IS a horse 'misbehaving' say when it stops at a fence? Does it warrant several smacks with a whip? I am not convinced. I am not perfect myself and I actually cringe when I think of how i would used a whip far too often when I was younger but, now I am older and have learnt a lot more and been educated by good instructors, I would not use a whip if my horse refused a fence. The reason being it was more than likely my fault it happened!
If I believed I had done all I could to place the horse right etc and yet it still threw the towel in then I would be questioning why and would look at rectifying it at home in my own time without a whip. Generally horses' reactions to things are down to lack of confidence, lack of understanding, genuine fear or pain. I don't think there's actually that many (if any) horses out there who actually rationalise their behaviour. Sure there is learned behaviour but i really don't believe a horse thinks that deeply about what it is going to do and what result it would achieve by it!
All too often you see bad riding resulting in a horse refusing and this is swiftly followed by the rider punishing the behaviour using the whip and more often than not the horse in question knows full well that that is what is coming!!! I just don't think there's a need and where really does it get the rider at the end of the day.
Personally I do think something should be done in respect of the use of whips in racing. I understand the need to maybe use the whiop to help with steering and avoiding collision but I cannot stand seeing jockeys continually hitting a horse when approaching the finish.
If I believed I had done all I could to place the horse right etc and yet it still threw the towel in then I would be questioning why and would look at rectifying it at home in my own time without a whip. Generally horses' reactions to things are down to lack of confidence, lack of understanding, genuine fear or pain. I don't think there's actually that many (if any) horses out there who actually rationalise their behaviour. Sure there is learned behaviour but i really don't believe a horse thinks that deeply about what it is going to do and what result it would achieve by it!
All too often you see bad riding resulting in a horse refusing and this is swiftly followed by the rider punishing the behaviour using the whip and more often than not the horse in question knows full well that that is what is coming!!! I just don't think there's a need and where really does it get the rider at the end of the day.
Personally I do think something should be done in respect of the use of whips in racing. I understand the need to maybe use the whiop to help with steering and avoiding collision but I cannot stand seeing jockeys continually hitting a horse when approaching the finish.
Quadro
Well-Known Member
i may be shot down for this but ........... i jump affilated and i would never jump with out a whip, the main reason being if a horse starts to backoff i can give him a reminder on the shoulder to make him concentrate on the job in hand, have you ever been "whipped" so to speak????? it does not hurt at all and it is more the noise that is a reminder than anything else, im not condoneing excessive whipping by any means but i think a whip is a valuable aid .
if it is banned what is to stop me using the loop end of my reins instead????? does the same thing???
if it is banned what is to stop me using the loop end of my reins instead????? does the same thing???
martlin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I do think something should be done in respect of the use of whips in racing. I understand the need to maybe use the whiop to help with steering and avoiding collision but I cannot stand seeing jockeys continually hitting a horse when approaching the finish.
[/ QUOTE ]
Errmm, I think if you watch carefully, you will see that they actually don't hit the horse
They ride 'from the whip', but that merely involves presenting the whip the way a horse can see it, not smack it
Personally I do think something should be done in respect of the use of whips in racing. I understand the need to maybe use the whiop to help with steering and avoiding collision but I cannot stand seeing jockeys continually hitting a horse when approaching the finish.
[/ QUOTE ]
Errmm, I think if you watch carefully, you will see that they actually don't hit the horse
viewfromahill
Well-Known Member
I'm with you on this one! Perhaps some of you doubters should watch your animals in the field and see what they do to each other, they can be brutal to gain anothers respect - then ask yourselves if what we do in the ring, a few short sharp smacks (WHEN it is appropriate to do so and this is where good training is needed) really does anything different but probably alot more kindly!!!!
Alibear
Well-Known Member
Oh dear how will people tell if it's being used as an aid or as a punishment? Surley punishment is an aid in some ways?
If whips are banned then you can use them as an aid either?
All to confusing, even the NH people use whip whops and the like , which are really just whips in disguise.
If whips are banned then you can use them as an aid either?
All to confusing, even the NH people use whip whops and the like , which are really just whips in disguise.
Onyxia
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Horse trainer Johanna Macarthur, who hosts the Norfolk Horse Training and Equitation Club at her centre at Aylmerton near Cromer, however said: In modern society it is never acceptable to use punishment on a horse.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really?
Now I am as against excessive use of the whip as anyone,but NEVER punish your horse?
What exactly are we then to teach these big animals? "Do what you want,we are not going to correct your bad behaviour just praise your good"?
If a horse kicks me it gets a smack.If it bites,it gets a smack.If it puts me in danger in any way,it will get a smack-and that smack from my hand will hurt a hell of a lot less then the kick a field mate would dish out.....
Horse trainer Johanna Macarthur, who hosts the Norfolk Horse Training and Equitation Club at her centre at Aylmerton near Cromer, however said: In modern society it is never acceptable to use punishment on a horse.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really?
Now I am as against excessive use of the whip as anyone,but NEVER punish your horse?
What exactly are we then to teach these big animals? "Do what you want,we are not going to correct your bad behaviour just praise your good"?
If a horse kicks me it gets a smack.If it bites,it gets a smack.If it puts me in danger in any way,it will get a smack-and that smack from my hand will hurt a hell of a lot less then the kick a field mate would dish out.....
Tinkerbee
Well-Known Member
Well that would be Maisy unrideable
only_me
Well-Known Member
without a whip i would not be able to ride my horse in an indoor arena
Stateside
Well-Known Member
On this forum we read every day about horses misbehaving and problems that a good old fashion smack in the first place would have stop progressing into the problems these people now have. To many do gooders that don't understand horses in this world already. I would like to see some of these people with a real problem horse which when behaving badly can be a killing machine.
ladyt25
Well-Known Member
Not always true though martlin. I watch a lot of racing I do enjoy it and i know and can tell the difference between the horse being 'shown' the whip - ie when it is flashed by the their side and, when the jockey has actually hit the horse.
Also I don't agree with we should punish a horse (as per another poster mentioned). We have all come across difficult horses and sure we have all probably hit them but, is it necessary? I would be pretty sure that 9 times out of 10 the reason a horse has developed certain problems is because of how it has been treated in the early stages of it's ridden/handled career.
Firm handling and praise for a horse doing well is much more preferable. Backing up an aid with an appropriate tap can be beneficial but what I think people are saying is that too many people resort to over use of a whip when it is not needed. I have seen many cases recently. A rather (shall I say hefty!) woman at a unaff SJ kept hammering her horse at a practice fence (too big as a first attempt IMO - it was only a 95 cm class). Horse rushed panicky every time and it stopped - what did she do? Walloped it! She did lower the fence but the horse still looked terrified every time it jumped.
Somehow, through hitting and brute force she got into the JO but I have top say I did feel a sense of karma when she got dumped rather swiftly at a fence! Still, doubt she learnt anything from it.
Also I don't agree with we should punish a horse (as per another poster mentioned). We have all come across difficult horses and sure we have all probably hit them but, is it necessary? I would be pretty sure that 9 times out of 10 the reason a horse has developed certain problems is because of how it has been treated in the early stages of it's ridden/handled career.
Firm handling and praise for a horse doing well is much more preferable. Backing up an aid with an appropriate tap can be beneficial but what I think people are saying is that too many people resort to over use of a whip when it is not needed. I have seen many cases recently. A rather (shall I say hefty!) woman at a unaff SJ kept hammering her horse at a practice fence (too big as a first attempt IMO - it was only a 95 cm class). Horse rushed panicky every time and it stopped - what did she do? Walloped it! She did lower the fence but the horse still looked terrified every time it jumped.
Somehow, through hitting and brute force she got into the JO but I have top say I did feel a sense of karma when she got dumped rather swiftly at a fence! Still, doubt she learnt anything from it.
D
Donkeymad
Guest
Can't agree with it all. I hate to see a whip being miss or over used, but there are times when a whip needs to be used as an aid. Carriage drivers usually carry a whip. they do not hit a horse with it, but lightly tap as guidance. Where does a lunge whip come in? It (should) never touch a horse.
Coffee_Bean
Well-Known Member
No they need to stay legal. My girl can be a little spooky at fillers, it took me 8 attempts to get over a water tray once and she did get a big one-hand-on-reins wallop on the 6th/7th attempt. I understand she was not being malicious, but to refuse so many times when she so clearly understands what is being asked of her is unacceptable. She never ever gets hit when she behaves, and I only use my leg 99% of the time when jumping. Schooling she gets lots of small light taps behind the leg to remind her, but she doesn't get stressed or object about that, it is there as a reminder and to back up my aids.
If I feel her backing off at some fillers, I will drive with my seat and legs and often give her a tap on the bum on the approach, and it does work most of the time, she just needs a little encouragement!!
I understand people coming in and saying no if someone is repeatedly walloping their horse and it being against club rules and being cruel etc but it should be left to the RC or whatever to decide what is unacceptable, in the individual situation.
If I feel her backing off at some fillers, I will drive with my seat and legs and often give her a tap on the bum on the approach, and it does work most of the time, she just needs a little encouragement!!
I understand people coming in and saying no if someone is repeatedly walloping their horse and it being against club rules and being cruel etc but it should be left to the RC or whatever to decide what is unacceptable, in the individual situation.
L00bey
Well-Known Member
Haha I cant hit rupert for punishment anyway I'll only get punished twice as badly in return
Quadro
Well-Known Member
a schooling whip does not hurt the horse but it is mearly a "tickle" is tickling cruel now
this really annoys me as it just taking things to far
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
It's an interesting debate.
For a horse to feel safe and secure with a rider/trainer, I think the rider has to be dominant. And clearly a human is not going to win in a kicking/biting match with up to 750kg of horseflesh. So, yes, I use a whip to reinforce my status, and to ensure that the horse respects my space at all times.
Do I beat my horses?
No, but I will smack them if I think it is needed.
I prefer to use more positive reinforcement - so praise, treats, rests, withdrawal of aids, etc, than negative, as I'm sure does everyone.
But the negative reinforcement or 'punishment' has to be there to make the horse physically respect you.
In the past I taught at a yard where a mother/daughter combination threw away their whips as 'instruments of torture'. They wanted to bond with their horses, instead, did join up, etc, were loving and caring.
Horse number one, Penny, became unrideable, and they retired her from work, and bought their second horse, Tilly. Within a month or two, Tilly refused to go out the gates, wouldn't go in the school either. They wanted to put them to sleep as unrideable, possibly due to brain tumours, but the riding school bought them.
Penny - took one smack and her working life was restored. Tilly took three smacks in the school, and then remembered how to work, too, so her future was assured.
S
For a horse to feel safe and secure with a rider/trainer, I think the rider has to be dominant. And clearly a human is not going to win in a kicking/biting match with up to 750kg of horseflesh. So, yes, I use a whip to reinforce my status, and to ensure that the horse respects my space at all times.
Do I beat my horses?
No, but I will smack them if I think it is needed.
I prefer to use more positive reinforcement - so praise, treats, rests, withdrawal of aids, etc, than negative, as I'm sure does everyone.
But the negative reinforcement or 'punishment' has to be there to make the horse physically respect you.
In the past I taught at a yard where a mother/daughter combination threw away their whips as 'instruments of torture'. They wanted to bond with their horses, instead, did join up, etc, were loving and caring.
Horse number one, Penny, became unrideable, and they retired her from work, and bought their second horse, Tilly. Within a month or two, Tilly refused to go out the gates, wouldn't go in the school either. They wanted to put them to sleep as unrideable, possibly due to brain tumours, but the riding school bought them.
Penny - took one smack and her working life was restored. Tilly took three smacks in the school, and then remembered how to work, too, so her future was assured.
S
the watcher
Well-Known Member
Shils - you are sooo mistaken - we should be sitting down in the fields with our horses and reasoning with them as to why they are doing what they are doing, or even taking the next step and accepting that they are horses and should not have to do what we want them to do.
No, I can't keep that up.
Yes, whips have a purpose, and occasionally that is to deliver a swift rebuke and correction. Like children, horses need firm boundaries and leadership to keep them safe.
No, I can't keep that up.
Yes, whips have a purpose, and occasionally that is to deliver a swift rebuke and correction. Like children, horses need firm boundaries and leadership to keep them safe.
Paddywhack
Well-Known Member
Whips should be used as an extra aid/encouragement only,but i have seen more than once on ODE's riders taking their frustration out on the horse with an angled the whip,and if you read the article that is what they want to ban.I will carry a whip(we got lots of scary cows in the fields and monsters in the hedges)
But can't remember last time i had to use it.
But can't remember last time i had to use it.
macarthur
Active Member
Hello everyone
Thank you for debating punishment with the whip - I am Johanna Macarthur from Norfolk Horse Training and Equitation Club - we wrote to the BHS regarding Banning the use of whip and spurs as punishment IN COMPETITION - the reason for this forum!
There is confusion and misunderstanding on appropriate application of the whip between riders - shown on this forum too i.e. understanding the difference between motivation-negative reinforcement and punishment . This is precisley why we need the whip as a means of punishing horses banned.
simply explained... without the in-depth scientific explanations!
Punishment is about applying pressure 'after an event' an example would be (as used by a poster here) 'refusing a jump',
Jumping correctly...
It is acceptable to motivate the horse with a whip tap going into the jump, just as you would/should! do with your leg, this is negative reinforcement - if correctly trained and the horse is not over-faced, not ridden badly by the rider (Pulling his head in - which is also a 'stop!' or being unbalanced by his rider leaning backward etc.,) then the horse should understand GO! and fly over the jump.
After it has landed it cannot be tapped/'smacked' with the whip this would be punishment.
If the horse refuses...
the rider CANNOT stand in front of the fence and beat the horse with the whip - this is punishment! - and likley only to make the horse fearful of the fence - completly opposite to what the rider wants! NEITHER can the rider, ride away beating the horse or spurring, also PUNISHEMENT!
WHEN the rider re-approaches the fence it should be as if it is for the first time - (no fear and a calmnes of purpose) a good rider will apply more GO! with the leg,ensure straightness and will also reinforce the leg signal with the whip - this is perfectly correct application of negative reinforcement.
Negative reinforcement is what horses understand and learn by - it simpy means we apply PRESSURE (i.e. our leg) and the instant the horse moves we take the leg off - a RELEASE of pressure, the horse learns to move off the lightest touch to go or move, to earn his release - this is his 'reward' for getting it right! Giving a wither rub, food reward etc is known as 'Positive reinforcement' and works spectacuarly well when combined with 'pressure and release training' (negative reinforcement)
If we do not clean up our act many more equine disciplines will go the way of the hunting ban - the public simply will not put up with seeing the whipping of horses, which endure pain and fear, for our pleasure!
I fail to see any arguement for using the whip or spurs as punishement in competition or training (beating/ whipping/ smacking) - imagine a child at school trying to recite his times tables when he gets stuck the teacher shouts and throws a board rubber at him, is that child likely to be more or less nervous when he has to recite his tables next time? - the answer is less - he will be less likely to 'try', becomes demotivated and this is what happens when you beat horses as punishment.
Most horses are beaten in competition because the rider feels frightened, humiliated and angry and this is taken out on the horse - we have all seen it - in every competition! show jumping, dressage, eventing, every discipline and It must stop. We must stop punishing our horses for being confused.
I train problem (very dangerous horses) every week and I never use punishment - I do use the whip constantly for guiding a movement with light whip tapping, sometimes the tapping becomes faster and harder until the horse moves - I train for clarity and lightness. This is done in-hand (critical when most horse people ignore ground work as boring or not useful) and in the saddle. I could supply a hundred testimonials by owners for the horses trained by me in this way. Every horse is also positively reinforced with primary and secondary reinforcers (rewards) rubbing withers and food when appropriate.
SO in the 'moment of the movement' use a whip appropriatly to urge the horse to GO!, but if he makes a mistake or refuses (go back to training and re-examine why he did it!?) do not berate him with your whip.
Horses do not do things to spite us they do not have the brain capacity or structure to do so and by using phrases such as "he knew what he was doing" or "he tries to get out of it", or "he was being naughty!" "was being disrespectful" suggests the horse is complicit in trying to out manouvre the rider - this is nonsense, it was just rider or horse error, or bad training, he didnt understand, or was confused or simply couldnt do what was asked of him.
I welcome debate because this is how we appraise and critique what we do and how we learn!
best wishes to you all Johanna x
Thank you for debating punishment with the whip - I am Johanna Macarthur from Norfolk Horse Training and Equitation Club - we wrote to the BHS regarding Banning the use of whip and spurs as punishment IN COMPETITION - the reason for this forum!
There is confusion and misunderstanding on appropriate application of the whip between riders - shown on this forum too i.e. understanding the difference between motivation-negative reinforcement and punishment . This is precisley why we need the whip as a means of punishing horses banned.
simply explained... without the in-depth scientific explanations!
Punishment is about applying pressure 'after an event' an example would be (as used by a poster here) 'refusing a jump',
Jumping correctly...
It is acceptable to motivate the horse with a whip tap going into the jump, just as you would/should! do with your leg, this is negative reinforcement - if correctly trained and the horse is not over-faced, not ridden badly by the rider (Pulling his head in - which is also a 'stop!' or being unbalanced by his rider leaning backward etc.,) then the horse should understand GO! and fly over the jump.
After it has landed it cannot be tapped/'smacked' with the whip this would be punishment.
If the horse refuses...
the rider CANNOT stand in front of the fence and beat the horse with the whip - this is punishment! - and likley only to make the horse fearful of the fence - completly opposite to what the rider wants! NEITHER can the rider, ride away beating the horse or spurring, also PUNISHEMENT!
WHEN the rider re-approaches the fence it should be as if it is for the first time - (no fear and a calmnes of purpose) a good rider will apply more GO! with the leg,ensure straightness and will also reinforce the leg signal with the whip - this is perfectly correct application of negative reinforcement.
Negative reinforcement is what horses understand and learn by - it simpy means we apply PRESSURE (i.e. our leg) and the instant the horse moves we take the leg off - a RELEASE of pressure, the horse learns to move off the lightest touch to go or move, to earn his release - this is his 'reward' for getting it right! Giving a wither rub, food reward etc is known as 'Positive reinforcement' and works spectacuarly well when combined with 'pressure and release training' (negative reinforcement)
If we do not clean up our act many more equine disciplines will go the way of the hunting ban - the public simply will not put up with seeing the whipping of horses, which endure pain and fear, for our pleasure!
I fail to see any arguement for using the whip or spurs as punishement in competition or training (beating/ whipping/ smacking) - imagine a child at school trying to recite his times tables when he gets stuck the teacher shouts and throws a board rubber at him, is that child likely to be more or less nervous when he has to recite his tables next time? - the answer is less - he will be less likely to 'try', becomes demotivated and this is what happens when you beat horses as punishment.
Most horses are beaten in competition because the rider feels frightened, humiliated and angry and this is taken out on the horse - we have all seen it - in every competition! show jumping, dressage, eventing, every discipline and It must stop. We must stop punishing our horses for being confused.
I train problem (very dangerous horses) every week and I never use punishment - I do use the whip constantly for guiding a movement with light whip tapping, sometimes the tapping becomes faster and harder until the horse moves - I train for clarity and lightness. This is done in-hand (critical when most horse people ignore ground work as boring or not useful) and in the saddle. I could supply a hundred testimonials by owners for the horses trained by me in this way. Every horse is also positively reinforced with primary and secondary reinforcers (rewards) rubbing withers and food when appropriate.
SO in the 'moment of the movement' use a whip appropriatly to urge the horse to GO!, but if he makes a mistake or refuses (go back to training and re-examine why he did it!?) do not berate him with your whip.
Horses do not do things to spite us they do not have the brain capacity or structure to do so and by using phrases such as "he knew what he was doing" or "he tries to get out of it", or "he was being naughty!" "was being disrespectful" suggests the horse is complicit in trying to out manouvre the rider - this is nonsense, it was just rider or horse error, or bad training, he didnt understand, or was confused or simply couldnt do what was asked of him.
I welcome debate because this is how we appraise and critique what we do and how we learn!
best wishes to you all Johanna x
macarthur
Active Member
Being impotent with horses is equally confusing to them as being aggressive. Being Fair and ensuring clear guidelines is what makes horse training successfull.
If all it took was a 'smack' there would be no problem horses! I understand the point you are making but as trainers is is important to clearly say what you do to train a horse.
If all it took was a 'smack' there would be no problem horses! I understand the point you are making but as trainers is is important to clearly say what you do to train a horse.
AmyMay
Situation normal
[ QUOTE ]
They ride 'from the whip', but that merely involves presenting the whip the way a horse can see it, not smack it
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh believe me they do. And the sooner whips are banned in racing the better.
There is simply no place for them in the modern sport.
They ride 'from the whip', but that merely involves presenting the whip the way a horse can see it, not smack it
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh believe me they do. And the sooner whips are banned in racing the better.
There is simply no place for them in the modern sport.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Morning Jo, welcome to HHO.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
[ QUOTE ]
Being impotent with horses is equally confusing to them as being aggressive. Being Fair and ensuring clear guidelines is what makes horse training successfull.
If all it took was a 'smack' there would be no problem horses! I understand the point you are making but as trainers is is important to clearly say what you do to train a horse.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am sorry I didn't have time to 'clearly say' how I train horses, but I have to comment that your post could be edited to increase clarity. Having read it, I have no idea whether you are for or against use of the whip - you appear confused.
Luckily, HHO has just the right smiley -
Personally, Johanna, I don't have, nor ever will have 'problem horses' - horses are either trained or not. I am sorry that you view your horses as inherently 'dangerous' - horses react in unpredictable but predictable ways to stimuli, and as a trainer, we need to try to form their reactions in a way that suits us, and keeps both rider and horse safe. Very few horses are inherently aggressive - and those few are often suffering from physical problems such as hormonal imbalances, brain tumours, pain.
I am sorry you feel 'impotent with your horses' - perhaps if you detailed your problems here, we'd be able to help you sort them out?
I don't think horses have any idea of 'fairness', for what it is worth. For example, I don't suppose one of my four year olds thinks 'That's just not fair!' when I work the other, or vice versa.
Regarding equine behaviour - may I recommend Nankervis and Mills' book - easy to read, yet invaluable.
S
Being impotent with horses is equally confusing to them as being aggressive. Being Fair and ensuring clear guidelines is what makes horse training successfull.
If all it took was a 'smack' there would be no problem horses! I understand the point you are making but as trainers is is important to clearly say what you do to train a horse.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am sorry I didn't have time to 'clearly say' how I train horses, but I have to comment that your post could be edited to increase clarity. Having read it, I have no idea whether you are for or against use of the whip - you appear confused.
Luckily, HHO has just the right smiley -
Personally, Johanna, I don't have, nor ever will have 'problem horses' - horses are either trained or not. I am sorry that you view your horses as inherently 'dangerous' - horses react in unpredictable but predictable ways to stimuli, and as a trainer, we need to try to form their reactions in a way that suits us, and keeps both rider and horse safe. Very few horses are inherently aggressive - and those few are often suffering from physical problems such as hormonal imbalances, brain tumours, pain.
I am sorry you feel 'impotent with your horses' - perhaps if you detailed your problems here, we'd be able to help you sort them out?
I don't think horses have any idea of 'fairness', for what it is worth. For example, I don't suppose one of my four year olds thinks 'That's just not fair!' when I work the other, or vice versa.
Regarding equine behaviour - may I recommend Nankervis and Mills' book - easy to read, yet invaluable.
S
macarthur
Active Member
Hello
I dont wish to personalise arguements as it isnt helpful.
I am not confused I understand very well correct application of equine learning theory and how the horses brain work and how thus they are better able to be trained. In a short text here it is not easy to explain Equine Learning Theory Principles and all of the ins and out - I wanted to clear up some of the comments made that are simply not correct terms.
I understand the correct application of both negative and positive reinforcement positive punishment and negative punishement, extinction, adaptive behaviours, associative learning etc, it is a huge subject! As you say we should all read books about how they learn and ethical horse training - might I suggest Academic Horse Training or the Truth about Horses by Dr Andrew McLean.
I am concerned about traditional dogmas and mindset.
Horses must never be punished for being confused or being unable to perform a movement - it leaves the horse with negative associations, confusion, fear etc., not just with the signal, but also the handler and environment.
Fear and pain is deeply learned.
I train horses - I have a reputation for being able to reform dangerous and undesired behaviour - and yes most is casued by previous bad handling, training and riding - often by people that are convinced they are correct and have nothing to learn - they are the ones that try to make the horses fit into their training, instead of expanding their own knowledge and understanding of the horse innate behaviours and psychology.
Either you think it is OK to beat horses with whips or kick them hard with spurs to punish them for non-performance . Or you think it is unacceptable. I think unacceptable.
By the way my 'own' horses are impecably behaved and contented.
I dont wish to personalise arguements as it isnt helpful.
I am not confused I understand very well correct application of equine learning theory and how the horses brain work and how thus they are better able to be trained. In a short text here it is not easy to explain Equine Learning Theory Principles and all of the ins and out - I wanted to clear up some of the comments made that are simply not correct terms.
I understand the correct application of both negative and positive reinforcement positive punishment and negative punishement, extinction, adaptive behaviours, associative learning etc, it is a huge subject! As you say we should all read books about how they learn and ethical horse training - might I suggest Academic Horse Training or the Truth about Horses by Dr Andrew McLean.
I am concerned about traditional dogmas and mindset.
Horses must never be punished for being confused or being unable to perform a movement - it leaves the horse with negative associations, confusion, fear etc., not just with the signal, but also the handler and environment.
Fear and pain is deeply learned.
I train horses - I have a reputation for being able to reform dangerous and undesired behaviour - and yes most is casued by previous bad handling, training and riding - often by people that are convinced they are correct and have nothing to learn - they are the ones that try to make the horses fit into their training, instead of expanding their own knowledge and understanding of the horse innate behaviours and psychology.
Either you think it is OK to beat horses with whips or kick them hard with spurs to punish them for non-performance . Or you think it is unacceptable. I think unacceptable.
By the way my 'own' horses are impecably behaved and contented.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
Hi again
I think communication is the problem, both between horse and trainer/rider, and on this thread, between posters.
One person's 'punishment' is another's 'negative reinforcement', for example one could argue that, by whipping your horse on the lunge as you described, you are punishing him for failing to move forwards.
Your position is still unclear - you say you think it is unacceptable to 'beat horses with whips' but for you, on the lunge, it is acceptable?
I think you have to take a stance - either whips and spurs are acceptable to use, or not. I say they are acceptable.
This does NOT mean that I support horse abuse - so please stop trying to equate the use of artificial aids, with threats to horse welfare. You must remember that whips/spurs are tools - one can equally abuse a horse without using either - I've seen some OTT leg aids, and rein aids for example, which were abusive, and currently, I see some very abusive use of 'training aids'.
I am sure, JV, that we are pretty much agreed on the substance of what constitutes abuse, but I don't believe that caring, decent riders should be denied whips and spurs (which are meant to refine, not increase the aid, incidentally) just because of a few individuals who can't ride properly, nor understand horses.
If you see a horse being abused at a competition, in the ring, or at home - blame the rider, not the tools - and report them to the BHS/WHW/show organisers. I would, and have.
S
I think communication is the problem, both between horse and trainer/rider, and on this thread, between posters.
One person's 'punishment' is another's 'negative reinforcement', for example one could argue that, by whipping your horse on the lunge as you described, you are punishing him for failing to move forwards.
Your position is still unclear - you say you think it is unacceptable to 'beat horses with whips' but for you, on the lunge, it is acceptable?
I think you have to take a stance - either whips and spurs are acceptable to use, or not. I say they are acceptable.
This does NOT mean that I support horse abuse - so please stop trying to equate the use of artificial aids, with threats to horse welfare. You must remember that whips/spurs are tools - one can equally abuse a horse without using either - I've seen some OTT leg aids, and rein aids for example, which were abusive, and currently, I see some very abusive use of 'training aids'.
I am sure, JV, that we are pretty much agreed on the substance of what constitutes abuse, but I don't believe that caring, decent riders should be denied whips and spurs (which are meant to refine, not increase the aid, incidentally) just because of a few individuals who can't ride properly, nor understand horses.
If you see a horse being abused at a competition, in the ring, or at home - blame the rider, not the tools - and report them to the BHS/WHW/show organisers. I would, and have.
S