Ban use of horse whips?

What are peoples opinions of the use of the whip in xc then? Say for instance you are approaching a large solid fence and the horse starts to back off? If we are not allowed whips in competition what would you do? pull up? Not enter in the first place? Kick on and hope thats enough?

Surely there are many instances where the use of the whip actually aids safety for both horse and rider?
 
[ QUOTE ]
What are peoples opinions of the use of the whip in xc then? Say for instance you are approaching a large solid fence and the horse starts to back off? If we are not allowed whips in competition what would you do? pull up? Not enter in the first place? Kick on and hope thats enough?

Surely there are many instances where the use of the whip actually aids safety for both horse and rider?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the thread - no one is saying you couldn't do that. It's more about not smacking them when they've stopped.
 
[ QUOTE ]
What are peoples opinions of the use of the whip in xc then? Say for instance you are approaching a large solid fence and the horse starts to back off? If we are not allowed whips in competition what would you do? pull up? Not enter in the first place? Kick on and hope thats enough?

Surely there are many instances where the use of the whip actually aids safety for both horse and rider?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, you see that would be 'negative reinforcement' so that would be ok to use the whip
wink.gif
 
Glad you cleared that up for me Martlin
grin.gif


I don't agree with beating a horse in a temper but I think a well timed smack is part of a horses education - you can't sit them down and reason with them - you can't ignore bad behaviour - IME you have to make it crystal clear to the horse that there is GOOD behaviour and BAD behaviour, and that BAD behaviour is NOT acceptable.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Glad you cleared that up for me Martlin
grin.gif


I don't agree with beating a horse in a temper but I think a well timed smack is part of a horses education - you can't sit them down and reason with them - you can't ignore bad behaviour - IME you have to make it crystal clear to the horse that there is GOOD behaviour and BAD behaviour, and that BAD behaviour is NOT acceptable.

[/ QUOTE ]

On second thought, it might actually be punishing for not going forwards
tongue.gif
... so you might need the expertise of a steward to tell you
grin.gif


As my old coach used to say - one good telling off will save the horse a lot of suffering in the future...
 
ok, as the argument seems to centre around bsja i will add my piece, i jump bsja and if my horse stops i will smack it on its behind as it needs to know it has done wrong there is no point patting it saying "there there its ok" and this will be taking as "positive reinforcement" and i take the horses there to go over the jumps not just to look at them, i also have what may be described as "difficult" and my use of the whip is the same with them as with any other horse, this "policy" will be very difficult to police and as i said in a previous comment how will you stop me using the end of my reins instead????? i think this is ridiculous and totally unworkable almost as bad as the hunting law
wink.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]

On second thought, it might actually be punishing for not going forwards
tongue.gif
... so you might need the expertise of a steward to tell you
grin.gif


As my old coach used to say - one good telling off will save the horse a lot of suffering in the future...

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol! Sounds like a sensible philosophy to me
smile.gif
 
Surely, all science is theory. Nothing is ever PROVEN. But when my horse is sick, my vet will prescribe whatever drug has been shown to be the most likely to cure the thing which ails her.... in the same way, if there are studies showing a correlation between - say - biting and motivational conflict issues relating to the bit or headcollar... then the ethical thing is to address the issue through re-training of the signal involved in the conflict... not to try and punish your way out of it when - so far - there is no evidence what so ever that this will resolve the basic issue. Punishing a horse for not performing or for showing conflict behaviour is like treating a bowed tendon with chants and scented candles. It might work, but it probably won't. Considering how widespread punishment is, you'd see far fewer behavioural problems if it actually worked.


In the same way, if a horse won't jump, it's either because it can't or because it hasn't been trained to do so. In either case, whose responsibility is it to make sure the horse can and will jump without coercion?


Even if horses did understand our need for them to hop, skip and jump their way around the competition scene, they STILL wouldn't be morally obliged to humour us. It would STILL be on us to make sure they were willing and able.


Suzy
 
[ QUOTE ]
ok, as the argument seems to centre around bsja i will add my piece, i jump bsja and if my horse stops i will smack it on its behind as it needs to know it has done wrong there is no point patting it saying "there there its ok" and this will be taking as "positive reinforcement" and i take the horses there to go over the jumps not just to look at them, i also have what may be described as "difficult" and my use of the whip is the same with them as with any other horse, this "policy" will be very difficult to police and as i said in a previous comment how will you stop me using the end of my reins instead????? i think this is ridiculous and totally unworkable almost as bad as the hunting law
wink.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

**applause**
 
[ QUOTE ]
ok, as the argument seems to centre around bsja i will add my piece, i jump bsja and if my horse stops i will smack it on its behind as it needs to know it has done wrong there is no point patting it saying "there there its ok" and this will be taking as "positive reinforcement" and i take the horses there to go over the jumps not just to look at them, i also have what may be described as "difficult" and my use of the whip is the same with them as with any other horse, this "policy" will be very difficult to police and as i said in a previous comment how will you stop me using the end of my reins instead????? i think this is ridiculous and totally unworkable almost as bad as the hunting law


[/ QUOTE ]

See, I don't smack mine (Saying that I can't remember the last time he stopped BSJA) because I know he tries and if he does stop then there must be a reason for it, this was back when he was younger I guess. Going on your theory he'd refuse all the time now because i didn't nip it in th bud.. but he doesn't.. We don't get a smack every time we cock it up afterall...
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for the hunter which bites and strikes out after other horses, the secret would be to find out what causes the behaviour and then remedy the cause. Unless we believe that the horse is simply "bad", punishing it with the whip seems a pretty short term solution. What if the horse's aggression is rooted in fear? Then what happens when he's whipped? What if his aggression is rooted in confusion? Then what is achieved by beating on him? Long term, I mean.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he is bad but i think he might be doing it to be dominant over other horses? he's especially bad when he's stood near his best friend Caffrey. I have no idea why it would route from fear.. he's never had any bad experiences that i know of. If it was routed from fear - how would you deal with it?

[/ QUOTE ]


Dominance is just aggression to compete for resources. If your horse wants to be "dominant" over other horses, perhaps you just need to train him to ignore this drive and listen to your aids instead, just like you have probably trained him to ignore his drive to eat or lie down for a nap while you are out riding
smile.gif
You can do this using negative and positive reinforcement. All animal training relies on these principles. Not punishment, which by its bewildering nature confuses animals more than it sorts them out.


All horse training is teaching horses to ignore what they want to do and instead do what we ask them to do. This includes their possible need or wish to be aggressive to other horses.


A horse who strikes out and attacks with his teeth, I would expect to be a very forward horse who might not be that easy to hold or stop - a wild stab in the dark might be asking if this horse shows any other bit or headcollar-related conflict behaviour like bolting, leaning, head tossing or pawing when asked to stand?


If this is the case, I know that there are trainers who specialise in fixing these problems through re-training of the basic signals or aids which dysfunction and cause confusion and anxiety. This is basically what I think Jo Macarthur is on about. I have seen it work many times, and although I am not a professional or anything close to it, I have found the methods very easy to apply. I have audited some clinics with Andrew McLean who did much of the research into the mental capabilities of horses and their effect on how horses learn, what they are able to learn and how flawed learning causes fear and aggression. There are some articles on www.aebc.com.au - they are free to read (sorry if someone has already linked). That's where I got started.


Suzy
 
[ QUOTE ]

See, I don't smack mine (Saying that I can't remember the last time he stopped BSJA) because I know he tries and if he does stop then there must be a reason for it, this was back when he was younger I guess. Going on your theory he'd refuse all the time now because i didn't nip it in th bud.. but he doesn't.. We don't get a smack every time we cock it up afterall...

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I've had problems with mine stopping and have had help from a very respected BE Coach. Initially he didn't get a smack when he stopped and we spent weeks working on building his confidence. He got to a certain point and then started to take the p. Now, he gets a smack if he stops for no good reason - for the first few months my coach would determine what was a good reason as I didn't jump on my own.

He still needs the odd smack but has really come on - not just in the jumping. When we started I couldn't ride him in the school without him napping and rearing, couldn't hack out, even in company.

I'm not saying all horses should be smacked every time they stop at a fence, rather all horses are different and it is very difficult to judge without knowing the horse whether the use of the whip is excessive or not. If I used the whip on my TB the same way as I use it on my WB, this would be excessive - how can someone who doesn't know the horse determine this?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Surely, all science is theory. Nothing is ever PROVEN. But when my horse is sick, my vet will prescribe whatever drug has been shown to be the most likely to cure the thing which ails her.... in the same way, if there are studies showing a correlation between - say - biting and motivational conflict issues relating to the bit or headcollar... then the ethical thing is to address the issue through re-training of the signal involved in the conflict... not to try and punish your way out of it when - so far - there is no evidence what so ever that this will resolve the basic issue. Punishing a horse for not performing or for showing conflict behaviour is like treating a bowed tendon with chants and scented candles. It might work, but it probably won't. Considering how widespread punishment is, you'd see far fewer behavioural problems if it actually worked.


In the same way, if a horse won't jump, it's either because it can't or because it hasn't been trained to do so. In either case, whose responsibility is it to make sure the horse can and will jump without coercion?


Even if horses did understand our need for them to hop, skip and jump their way around the competition scene, they STILL wouldn't be morally obliged to humour us. It would STILL be on us to make sure they were willing and able.


Suzy

[/ QUOTE ]


Maybe the horses you know are more noble and pure minded than those I've met but I've met and seen horses who very well knew what was expected of them but they still just wanted to know if they really had to jump, that particular obstacle with this rider (= older riding school pony, been there done that and I only jump/canter if you really know that you want us to jump/canter, otherwise we will stay on the ground/trot-attitude)...

grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
ok, as the argument seems to centre around bsja i will add my piece, i jump bsja and if my horse stops i will smack it on its behind as it needs to know it has done wrong there is no point patting it saying "there there its ok" and this will be taking as "positive reinforcement" and i take the horses there to go over the jumps not just to look at them, i also have what may be described as "difficult" and my use of the whip is the same with them as with any other horse, this "policy" will be very difficult to police and as i said in a previous comment how will you stop me using the end of my reins instead????? i think this is ridiculous and totally unworkable almost as bad as the hunting law
wink.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need to use the end of your reins, if you adjust the example of the Norwegian drivers I talked about to suit riding, you could just use the rein going from your horses mouth and to your hand and smack that to the side of your horses neck. It will be very difficult to regulate that...
 
[ QUOTE ]
A horse who strikes out and attacks with his teeth, I would expect to be a very forward horse who might not be that easy to hold or stop - a wild stab in the dark might be asking if this horse shows any other bit or headcollar-related conflict behaviour like bolting, leaning, head tossing or pawing when asked to stand?


If this is the case, I know that there are trainers who specialise in fixing these problems through re-training of the basic signals or aids which dysfunction and cause confusion and anxiety. This is basically what I think Jo Macarthur is on about. I have seen it work many times, and although I am not a professional or anything close to it, I have found the methods very easy to apply. I have audited some clinics with Andrew McLean who did much of the research into the mental capabilities of horses and their effect on how horses learn, what they are able to learn and how flawed learning causes fear and aggression. There are some articles on www.aebc.com.au - they are free to read (sorry if someone has already linked). That's where I got started.


Suzy


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Suzy. You are right in that he is very forward and hard to stop. Well not all the time but he has his moments (he likes galloping so XC/hunting/fast work). That's about it though and i have no other problems at all. He is totally perfect to handle, he's a total gent. He's not that tough really, if another horse is boss in the field he gets on with them fine, but if he's boss he will bully and chase them. He's having some time out ATM but I'll have a read of your link..
smile.gif
 
Too many people are putting winning before the wealthfare of their horses. If all competitions banned the whip you would still have a winner. The problem is riders want a quick fix and take their horses to comps before they are ready. Moretime needs to be spent training and schooling. Youngsters are being rushed into competitons before they are mature enough and strong enough, which leads to frightened and confused horses, which in turn makes them out to have behaviour issues. So then what happens is the WHIP comes into play, this is all because we rush and don't spend enough time preparing horses properly!!! Too many people are beating up their horses for a silly bit of coloured ribbon!
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying all horses should be smacked every time they stop at a fence, rather all horses are different and it is very difficult to judge without knowing the horse whether the use of the whip is excessive or not. If I used the whip on my TB the same way as I use it on my WB, this would be excessive - how can someone who doesn't know the horse determine this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what your saying, but you could always do that when your at home?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[

Dominance is just aggression to compete for resources. If your horse wants to be "dominant" over other horses, perhaps you just need to train him to ignore this drive and listen to your aids instead, just like you have probably trained him to ignore his drive to eat or lie down for a nap while you are out riding
smile.gif
You can do this using negative and positive reinforcement. All animal training relies on these principles. Not punishment, which by its bewildering nature confuses animals more than it sorts them out.


All horse training is teaching horses to ignore what they want to do and instead do what we ask them to do. This includes their possible need or wish to be aggressive to other horses.


A horse who strikes out and attacks with his teeth, I would expect to be a very forward horse who might not be that easy to hold or stop - a wild stab in the dark might be asking if this horse shows any other bit or headcollar-related conflict behaviour like bolting, leaning, head tossing or pawing when asked to stand?


If this is the case, I know that there are trainers who specialise in fixing these problems through re-training of the basic signals or aids which dysfunction and cause confusion and anxiety. This is basically what I think Jo Macarthur is on about. I have seen it work many times, and although I am not a professional or anything close to it, I have found the methods very easy to apply. I have audited some clinics with Andrew McLean who did much of the research into the mental capabilities of horses and their effect on how horses learn, what they are able to learn and how flawed learning causes fear and aggression. There are some articles on www.aebc.com.au - they are free to read (sorry if someone has already linked). That's where I got started.


Suzy

[/ QUOTE ]

So, how would YOU go about training that horse?
All you have written might be right, but it isn't good enough to say 'you need to ride better' that's neither constructive nor helpful. If you wan't to tell people how things should not be done, IMO you need to offer alternative solution.
So how do you train them? Do you sit them down and talk? - I think we have established by now that this is not possible
tongue.gif

'Positive reinforcement'? give them a Polo every time they do not misbehave? - surely believing that they can make a link between the reward and not misbehaving would be stretching your imagination a tad to far
confused.gif
crazy.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
So, how would YOU go about training that horse?
All you have written might be right, but it isn't good enough to say 'you need to ride better' that's neither constructive nor helpful. If you wan't to tell people how things should not be done, IMO you need to offer alternative solution.
So how do you train them? Do you sit them down and talk? - I think we have established by now that this is not possible
'Positive reinforcement'? give them a Polo every time they do not misbehave? - surely believing that they can make a link between the reward and not misbehaving would be stretching your imagination a tad to far

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm struggling to see what i'm supposed to do TBH. I try and stop him doing it and he gets a slap (with my hand because I keep forgetting to carry a whip!) and told off a bit of he tries to bite someone.. It's a bit annoying because it makes flask exchanges difficult sometimes!
tongue.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying all horses should be smacked every time they stop at a fence, rather all horses are different and it is very difficult to judge without knowing the horse whether the use of the whip is excessive or not. If I used the whip on my TB the same way as I use it on my WB, this would be excessive - how can someone who doesn't know the horse determine this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what your saying, but you could always do that when your at home?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could - but then you are being inconsisent - the horse does it one day it's ok - the next and it's not. I've always been taught that consistency is vital when training animals (and people
smile.gif
) Hopefully you get to the point where you don't need to smack when you're in the ring, but smaller lower level comps are used as training in order to progress to higher levels.
 
Can I ask if those against the whip have ridden professionally/competitively, or had problem horses to retrain, or difficult youngsters to work with?
 
Who said they were "against" the whip?

As for me, yes to your questions (apart from proffesionally!) I just think it looks bad to general members of the public, which is why it might be an idea to consider.. I don't think it would make much difference to SJ/Eventing if you couldn't wallop your horse after a refusal - do you?
 
interesting post.

on the one side i can understand why the ban "overuse" (i think ban the use is ridiculous) of whips is understandable but isnt this a rule at all shows already - something is always in the rules about excessive whip/spur use.

having watched a horrid BRAT jump her delightful pony at a show, when it stopped at a jump which was totally her fault, she represented it - it jumped, then on landing she gave it about 3 good hard whacks. She should have been called into the judges box afterwards IMO. disgusting riding. ride it properly, or if your going to tap it up do so before the fence, not after the pony has jumped (beautifully i might add) and is carrying on perfectly.

However banning the use of whips at comps will be unpoliceable IMO and is hugely unneccassary.

Most people use their whips correctly. I rarely see any excessive use.

this comment though interests me...." “In modern society it is never acceptable to use punishment on a horse.”"
(Parelli?)
Really? I disagree. If a horse eas to bite me it would get a bump on the nose sharpish. My horse has kicked out at me once - she got kicked back. I will never ever "punish" her for not being able to work to a standard i want, but simply manners and SAFETY for other animals/myself/children on the yard - horses need to respect there handlers. The same with my dog, if he ever nipped me he'd get a pinch on the nose. I have a fair but firm line with all my animals, who are as a result happy & well behaved. Animals, especially horses, like to know where they stand with their pack leader IMO.
 
hello Mother hen

sorry you are wrong - horses do understand scientific meaning - it was written for them as a result of studying their natural behaviours - training they understand and use in their own environments - innate behaviours. The global scientific evidence for banning PUNISHMENT is overwhelming and is as a result of hundreds of scientists (including as far back as PAVLOV in the 1920's) around the world with hundreds of thousands of studied horses to come to verified conclusions on reactions for learning, including, observation statistics, measures of stress levels, adrenalin, diamorphine etc.,, increased heart rate , in the trained horse.

As opposed to reading a book and hand me down dogmas in riding.

No-one can make people search for advancement - so this is why a ban is necessary to protect horses from treatment by humans who dont understand how to correctly train horses.

I dont hide behind science at all - I am happy to explain what I do and how I do it - I use equine learning theory (science)immersed into my work daily, to ensure an ethical, fast, effective, safe and above all, easily reproduced form of training - I live in Norfolk and I welcome you to come and see the training that I advocate - I have nothing to hide and I am very open to other views and ideas for training if it involves ethical principles.
 
I am curious why people keep saying this is about banning whips altogether and/or stopping people from retaliating with force when a horse does something dangerous? I don't see that in the original concept. Of course people will agree and disagree but it seems unfair to accuse people of being hysterical bunny huggers
laugh.gif
when they're not just to make a point that has little to do with the original idea? Doesn't everyone agree that hitting a horse in anger or after the fact is unfair and a bad idea? Not to say people don't do it (c'mon, I would almost guarantee everyone here has done it once) just that it shouldn't be publicly acceptable. Rather like the business on the Isabell post - no one is saying "never", rather they're saying "when".


[ QUOTE ]

All you have written might be right, but it isn't good enough to say 'you need to ride better' that's neither constructive nor helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to the original debate but isn't this the "dirty little secret" of so many of the discussions about how we ride and compete horses? Similar to the point that's raised in the xc safety debate, why is is not acceptable to tell people that in order to do such and such safely and humanely they SHOULD need to ride better? I'm not saying people can do this magically in the blink of an eye but why is it unfair or unreasonable to ask it? As to *how* people should "ride better", well, surely that would depend entirely on the rider and the situation. It could hardly be a one size fits all solution.

The fact is riders DO have to take responsibility for how their horses behave. Alas, it isn't enough to just say "that's the best I can do" if the best one can do isn't good enough. Horses don't care if it's the best one can do. Absolutely, horses WORK for us (I'm a-okay with that, in fact I make my living reinforcing the status quo and yes, I occasionally hit horses, sometimes rightly, perhaps sometimes wrongly, as I said before.) and I agree we have the right and responsibility to make sure they understand the rules. BUT, just like any employer, a humane approach is not only socially required these days but morally responsible. Yes, people do still have slaves and they do still abuse them but we're supposed to be beyond that. And no, I'm not saying people treat their horses like slaves, merely that HOW we treat other living things is part of a wider social landscape, especially now, and open to debate.

[ QUOTE ]

'Positive reinforcement'? give them a Polo every time they do not misbehave? - surely believing that they can make a link between the reward and not misbehaving would be stretching your imagination a tad to far
confused.gif
crazy.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair, that's not an accurate understanding of the process. The point is to reward an appropriate behaviour in place, as it were, of the negative one. This is, after all, the basis of correct riding not just training. And punishment after the fact is generally not a great motivator with animals because they don't think "backwards" to the point where the behaviour started. So if you use the stick AS the horse is ignoring the leg that's a negative reinforcement and the horse will make the connection if it's done with good timing and understanding. Using the stick after the horse has ignored the leg is less effective. I know it seems a subtle difference but it's all important and, I suspect, an important element in this debate.

The problem is we, as people, are not at all good at doing what we say we're doing. How many people hit a horse after a stop then ride much more strongly (and often, I have to say, correctly, paying attention to their line, speed etc) then next time. Does the horse go because it's been hit or does it go because the rider "rides better" the second time?

Btw, I'm NOT in favour or outlawing the use of whips, just for those who seem to feel any debate is unacceptable
wink.gif
, and I think it will be very hard to police the intent of whip use. And, like the safety debate, who gets to say what's unacceptable or not? We used to be much better about accepting the word of established elders, I suspect, now it's a bad thing to tell people how they should or shouldn't behave. Perhaps anyone who hits their horse should be hit once for each time themselves?;) That way, if you think it's justified, you shouldn't mind.
smile.gif
 
Hello Starbucks
Firstly ask the question why does he do this?
2) how can we retrain him
3) how do we test.

Firstly it is natural for horses to not want strange horses nr them - so a natural response,
2) He must understand the correct signal for stop and go - stop means all four feet planted and still relaxed body - in all circumstances he must stand. or go -means go forward in the appropriate gate.

Horses that obediantly understand and consistently offer stand and go are much less likely to kick out at other horses.

If he kicks out you should shout out a brisk No!" and immediatly ask him to back up, it is also acceptable 'if' you are able to immediatly reinforce him with a whip tap on the shoulder simultaneously as you shout NO!" - generally this is quite hard to do, as we are busy turning to avoid further clashes etc.

You need to test him in other environments with new horses with your new trained skills to test stop (we call this PARK - ITS LIKE A DOG BEING TOLD TO STAY)

I would also introduce clicker training to ask him to stand and drop his head as well as 'park' and then click and food reward him to a voice command - so that when hunting and a horse gets close to you, you can say "Down" and he will be more concerned with the click and immenent treat than the horse coming into his space - I promise you this is effective and can be done!!

All undesired behaviours if repeated constantly by the horse and/or rider over long periods of time are difficult to outtrain -they are referred to as 'learned behaviours' especially so if it is something learned in fear or pain.

good luck and I hope this has answered your point?

johanna
 
hello well said and debated!

Lucinda McAlpine said to me yesterday she thinks of a whip as a conductors baton to encourage and guide the movement - isnt that a lovley analogy...

now whoever heard of the conductor going down to the pit and beating the string section for getting a wrong note.!!!

johanna
 
SuzyQ

well said - clarity without emotion - its just so simple. this is exactly what we are saying and driving toward.

johanna x
 
simple the same way as we currently police and judge excessive,misuse, etc., this is already proved to be very difficult as it is so subjective as has already been pointed out.

This proposed ban on punishment, provides an opportunity for the judges to be correct in ruling - without arguement! they will know there is no grey area - the horse has clearly been punished with whip and or spur for non-performance. unacceptable and very clear to the naked eye!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top