Ban use of horse whips?

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Martlin, it wasn't supposed to prove anything. Just maybe hone in on what we are actually discussing here. Does caring for an animal entitle a person to punish that animal for performing behaviours unwelcomed by the person?


To certain extent, YES.

What do you think?


I may get myself a goldfish and I may wish to train it to do tricks. Would you say it's okay for me to punish the fish whenever it fails to jump through hoops? Surely, as goldfish are far less sentient than horses, I can take much greater liberties in depriving and/or abusing my fish than I ever could when training my horse, don't you think?

Of course, I would have to tailor my punishments to the small body of the fish, but let's assume I came up with a way of causing it considerable fear and animating it to display violent avoidance behaviours.... would that be okay? If I did it to a fish? For fun?


As to the fish, I wouldn't have a clue, don't know if it is possible to train a fish to do anything.

On another note. Do you think it is OK to fence horses in with electric fencing?

It is the same principle as smacking for disobedience... Try to cross the fence - get zapped - punished
Refuse to go forward - get smacked - punished
simples
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I have electric fences around my paddocks and as there are a million things for the horses to do other than touch the fence and a million places for them to go, I don't consider that the fence poses any threat to their welfare.

In the riding situation, the horse's opportunities are somewhat more limited. It can't just remove itself from the source of its discomfort, and so it displays conflict behaviour. When you punish a buck, a bite or a refusal, you are punishing a symptom of a training error which you or your predecessor in the saddle committed. The horse is just expressing that he is confused or in pain or possibly that he has learned the wrong response to your aid (falling off is a potent, negative reinforcement and this is how bucking is learned) - by teaching him the right thing (for which purpose I happen to use a whip, albeit not as a punisher) - you eliminate the need to perform aggressive or hyperreactive behavior. Horses are generally lazy. They'd rather not buck or kick if they can help it.

Punishment is good for one thing: Inducing fear. I want my horses to be a little (or a lot, possibly) afraid of touching the fence around my paddock. But I don't want them to be afraid of me or any of the aids I use when riding. So I don't use aids for punishment. Also, if my horse walks through my fence, that IS my primary problem in that situation. If my horse bucks or bites or rears, the actual problem behaviour is not the primary problem, but a symptom of a primary problem. Punishing the symptom is never as effective, safe or humane as addressing the primary cause.


If my horse walked through the electric fence because he was starving and there was nothing to eat in the paddock and his gastric pH was approaching 1 and there was a haystack on the other side of the fence... then the humane and reliable solution would be to chuck a bale of hay in for him - fixing the cause of the problem - rather than turning up the voltage on the fence. I think there is a real parallel to riding. Where there is a behavioural problem, there is almost ALWAYS a dysfunctional basic response to an aid. This is what Andrew McLean did his PhD in - correlations between behavioural problems and training errors. If you look at the stats, it's something like 95% of horses that bite, which have got issues with understanding any signals to stop or slow. When the signal and response are retrained, the conflict behaviour disappears. I don't know of any published studies which contradict the findings of Dr. McLean - certainly, the same has been found to be true in other species. Animals who can't understand what we are asking them to do, become aggressive, fearful or apathetic. A horse might become "a b@stard", "a whimp" or "dull", regardless of its basic temperament. But he would not be at fault, and whilst punishing the behaviour might work to plan, the basic issue which might have been troubling the horse will not be resolved.


Goldfish can be trained, as youtube will attest. They are taught through positive reinforcement with a flash of light as the secondary reinforcer to swim in formation. You can train anything using the principles of negative and positive reinforcement - even amoeba. It's a pretty handy tool. Animal training is mostly done using food rewards, but as we are sitting on our horses anyway, we might as well use pressure as a motivator as well - the good thing about negative reinforcement is that you don't have to wait around for a behaviour to occur of its own before you can train it. You can use an aversive (a whip, perhaps, or a bit) to cause the horse some degree of discomfort and make it trial various behaviours. When you get the right behaviour, you can remove the aversive stimulus, and you have reinforced the behaviour (you probably know how it works) - this is very clear for horses to understand. It's natural (I'm almost afraid of typing the word) for them to seek comfort away from aversives - they seek the shade when the sun is hot, they swish their tails to make bugs go away, they drink to stop being thirsty, they scratch to not itch etc. Almost everything a feral or free living horse does, it does to remove or avoid a discomfort - and a few things they do to be positively reinforced: Seek out particularly tasty things to eat, groom their mates, play...


It is a myth that punishment is "natural" to horses. Very few interactions are aggressive, and those are always about competing for resources - not about "teaching manners". There are no manners in horse society - just distance and proximity. They don't attack eachother for NOT doing things. They attack eachother for being too close to a priority resource, a friend, a pile of hay, a water trough.... sorry, that got nerdy, but it's important to admit that horses do not spank other horses for misbehaving, even if it might look as if they do sometimes. There is always a simpler explanation, which does not involve anthropomorphizing the animal.


Suzy
 
Oh dear when will people learn to read properly! No-one is saying BAN WHIPS OR SPURS, just DON'T use them as a punishment. They are invaluable as a training aid, but are cruel, stressful and ineffective when used to punish.

This is not a difficult concept people. Train your horses to be obedient before asking them to jump & leap about for your pleasure. If your horse doesn't perform how you want, then you need to go back and have a look at your training.

I really don't understand why most people seem to be so against not punishing. Is it because most people can't be bothered to train their horses properly and they want instant results? Horses don't "misbehave" to get one over on us or to make us look stupid (we are v. good at that on our own!). They "misbehave" because they don't understand what we are asking, because they have not received adequate training. Do not punish your horse by hitting it with a whip or hounding it with spurs because it doesn't have a clue what you want.
 
If they did ban the use of whipe/spurs as punishment in competition, it really would not affect me, as, although I do use both, I do not use them as a punishment but as a reinforcement.

I have in the past been sickened by incorrect use of whip and spurs, and was under the impression that there are already steps in place to try to prevent this. Whatever, those that abuse their animals at shows are STILL going to be able to do this at home ban or no ban.
 
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Just to put a spanner in the works (as a maths person), when people talk about scientific evidence, they often mean statistical evidence?

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Often, yes, as reviewers like to see stars on graphs. But it is well known that scientists with their fantastic grasp of statistics can make pretty much any data statistically significant
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Also, often things are biologically significant but not statistically significant and vice versa.
 
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Either you think it is OK to beat horses with whips or kick them hard with spurs to punish them for non-performance . Or you think it is unacceptable. I think unacceptable.


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You are entitled to your opinion, which I respect, but why do you have to try to impose it on every one else?

Personally I believe that there is some middle ground - I will occasionally give mine a smack or two for a refusal but would not call that a beating.
 
livetoride, it seems to me that one or two people here have got a bit emotionally wrapped up in the whole concept of using or carrying a whip. Your (and my) smart tap becomes 'beating' to them.

That isn't to say that there aren't some people who would lay about their horses with a whip as punishment - of course there are - but they reserve their more violent behaviour for places out of public view, usually.
 
Well said wizbit, so many people are on the defensive over this, is this because they are scared of change and don't think they will be able to control their horse without a whip, if this is so GIVE UP RIDING!!!. How many people would watch crufts and put up with seeing dogs being whipped because they won't do what you want? I watched some footage today of some of the best young riders on the circuit showjumping and it made me feel sick. Riders were zig zagging on reins (STOP) and whipping at the same time (GO) the poor horse would then buck and rear (CONFUSION) and would then get whipped again for not obeying (POOR BLOODY HORSE). These horses have a life sentence of being punished all because the riders haven't a clue what they are doing THIS IS SO WRONG!!!
 
Taking a step back isn't going to help the horse - this is the problem people are turning a blind eye to cruelty because they think it is the norm and people have been doing it like this for years. If medics thought like this our life expectancy would still be 30 years!!
 
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If your horse was trained enough in GO you wouldn't have a problem!

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I actually don't know what you are talking about
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You will be pleased to know, that my horse is trained enough in GO (unless you mean the Chinese board game
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) therefore I don't have a problem
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dont like it when I see riders going crazy with the whip ( round the horses head ect) I will occasionally give mine a smack or two for a refusal or when they are being naughty like napping but would not call that a beating firm but fair is the way. Normally a good grawl at my horse and unlady like language works thou before it get to the stage that I need to use the whip
 
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I have read this thread all the way through (gosh that took ages.
Yes i can see the point, for whips and spurs not being used for punishent in competition, as i have seen many riders beat the s**t out of the horses if they refuse a fence and not in a positive way i mean as in taking hand of reins and hitting the horse many belts as they ride way from the fence not giving a reinforcing tap as they ride positively forwards towards the fence.
No-one is asking for a complete ban, but judges are meant to be knowledgeable so they should be able to notice the difference between a positive smack (e.g. look what you are doing and jump it this time) and (you will jump this fence you f**king b&&&ard because if you dont the beating will be even worse next time) well if i can see the difference and i am not a judge and prob will never be that qualified then those that we all look up to should be able to tell the difference
 
What an odd response to a debate. People feel very passionate about this subject and there is nothing wrong with a bit of passion.
It would be more helpful however, if you could perhaps offer a less personal response and , dare I say, a more considered one.
There seems to be a lot of people in this debate who just want to argue for the sake of it which I find very strange. Don't punish your horses anymore, it is a useless training tool, else you wouldn't need to keep doing it!
Cannot be any clearer or less emotive than that!
 
My response was far from personal, I don't have intention to argue, however this

If your horse was trained enough in GO you wouldn't have a problem!

was fairly uncalled for, very assuming and frankly rude, so I decided to answer, my mistake.

As to the debate, for me there is a problem with defining punishment... I can distinguish punishment (or IMO negative reinforcement) from revenge, revenge is useless in horses, punishment is something that creates simple link - as the electric fence example - 'touch this and you get zapped', in other words 'don't touch it'.
I use whip as a very clear signal - FORWARD that very second. Is it punishment or isn't it?
 
In a perfect world maybe but otherwise........................................complete and utter claptrap, I do hate people who are holier than thou and who try to force their perceived perfectness on others, in fact your condescending tone made me feel quite angry - hows that for a bit of passion.
 
I am sorry you thought I was rude, it was not my intention, but it is difficult to convey meaning accurately by words alone sometimes.
No, using the whip as an aid cannot be a punishment, it is an aid to encourage the correct response at the time of asking. Punishment is pain inflicted by the omission of obedience, ie refusing a jump. Punishing ( by whipping, spurring, yanking on the bit etc,) or inflicting pain for such an offence is unreasonable, and ineffective - maybe this is what you call revenge? Effective training to get an obedient horse who understands fully what is expected of it, might need to use the whip as enouragement to the GO now signal. I don't agree that an electric fence is punishment, it is negative reinforcement of an act that the horse is currently performing. A horse doesn't touch an electric fence, turn away and then get zapped for doing the wrong thing!
Clearly you don't use your whip or spurs to punish (enact revenge) on your horse, so does that mean you are in agreement that they should be banned for use as a punishment, which is afterall what this debate is about?
 
I do not like to see a whip/spurs used as a punishment, but then I don't like to see them used by someone who has no idea how to use them properly either. Sadly I don't think a ban in competition is the answer, as, although it would stop it happening on that particular day, it will not stop those people from abusing their poor horses at home.

I would however, like to see show organisers being harder on those that are guilty of abuse, which at present they don't seem to be doing to the degree they should, so, perhaps harsher penalties and braver ring stewards are the answer.
 
Theres actually a lot of inaccuracy in that article. What on earth is this about the whip being banned in Scotland? I've been living here for the last 5 years and competing regularly and I have heard nothing of this. Last week I qualified for a BHS Working Hunter Championship, in Scotland, carrying a whip.

And using a whip as punishment is already banned in the rules of most affiliated associations, such as the BSJA. And the rule is enforced - I've seen it happening at small BSJA shows where there is little public to impress - all BSJA riders know the rules and its not a problem.

Theres some horses you do need to use the whip on as a back up to the aid, within the rules, whether at a competition or not, to constantly reassert control. Some horses try it on. If you let them away with it, they will pass down the chain and some competition horses are too difficult to have any other kind of life.

Personally, I would really like to see a ban on inexperienced owners who fall prey to control freak figures who hold themselves up as sort of equine mesiahs and charge them a fortune for swinging crystals round their horses's heads rather than teaching good, firm, fair horse management.
 
I'd also like to say that competition is really the test of how good your horsemanship is. And I often wonder how many of the headline grabbing "mesiahs" have actually got a proven competition record on a variety of different horses. Its all very well bimbling along bitless on a beach but rather different getting the stride right to a 1.40m oxer.

Likewise some horses you might use the whip with, not excessively, to avoid them developing bad habits, such as stopping. Not all horses are saints, some are lazy, some lack courage, some are inconsistent. But you do no horse's future a favour by letting it develop a bad habit without some form of reasonable, quick and responsive punishment. Horses understand that kind of use of the whip very well, its only when its overdone that its a problem and no-one with any sense would advocate it anyway.

But the kind of issues raised by this article are actually quite dangerous because some misinformed members of the public and animal rights activists tend to jump on the bandwagon as part of their hatred of "rich, priveleged" horse owners.
 
Hello everyone

This will be my last post, as you will appreciate my focus (and time) is to press on with reasonable dialogue with the ruling federations on the matter of banning the use of whips and spurs for non-performance of horses in competitions - this is too absorbing!

Firstly can I say thank you for all the comments positive , negative and punishing! That the subject has caused so much heated debate pleases me and others watching this unfold - bringing this issue to a public forum would be worthless (and an indicator of the wider public reaction) if people were so dis-interested that they couldnt be bothered to comment!

It is clear to me in summary that the need to ban punishment with the whip for 'NON-PERFORMANCE IN COMPETITION' is absolutly necessary based on the responses here.

Since so many people simply do not understand the difference between the permitted use of whip or spur to urge or guide a movement ................

as opposed.........

to punishment -'whacking', 'beating' 'good smack' etc when the horse has NOT PERFORMED THE MOVEMENT he was originally asked for. (quite possibly with the whip and spur, leg and seat)

If you do not understand the correct application of the whip and spur - should you even carry one? I say no!

Banning the use of the Whip and Spur as punishers in competitions will allow the officials to take immediate action when they see punishment by the rider - not negative reinforcement, but a whip, smack, kick 'after' the horse has refused to jump, piaffe, extend his trot etc., whatever the reason for his refusal.

In the case of a jumping situation (as this has been deabted hotly!)- if he refuses , he cannot be 'smacked' or kicked whislt the rider holds his head in (punished), the rider would be able to turn him away (she would not be permitted to whip, smack,spur,whack on the 'turn away') when she turns to approach the fence for a second try and rides forward to the jump she would be correctly permitted to use the whip and spur to MOTIVATE the horse to jump.

Many things have been said and accusations made - but I will say this, I do not hide behind a poster name - I could have come onto this site secretly and followed the debate, still joined in and clearly stirred up a hornets nest... but in the spirit of openess and informed debate I chose to come on as Johanna Macarthur, representing a BHS riding club.

My work (for those that need to know?) is as an ethcial 'conflict free' horse trainer - I use Equine Learning Theory and applied biomechanics in my work with horses and their owners. I have worked with the Worlds largest horse charity - training their staff and horses, I have worked with elite riders GP horses and everyone in-between, currently I have a race horse in for remedial training and an upset youngster to be backed. I have held positions as Chief Steward on racetracks and I raced professionally. At nearly 50 years old I have learnt by bitter experiance what works and what does not - I am sorry I didnt find the work of Dr Andrew McLean and Dr Paul McGreevy and equitation science 20 years ago. However my credentials are un-important to this issue.

When I look back I want to be assured that as much as horses have enriched my life then so have I done the same for them.

Punishment doesnt work - training does, the whip and spur has a place for motivating horses to learn especially when it is used in conjunction with rewards.

The abuse of horses is continual and excessive in all of our sports - if we dont clear it up, the public will, so it is up to all of us to recognise our own riding faults and do something about it!

I do not advocate parelli - as challenged by one of the posters... the quote in the 'press article' (to which I have no control!) was that "in a modern society punishment is not acceptable" this quote attributed to me was actually said by Dr Andrew McLean (yes he also competed and represented Australia in 3 -day eventing - his australian equine behaviour centre is worth looking at! www.aebc.au ) Andrew is recognised as the global expert on the behaviour in the trained horse - he works with the worlds elite riders and trainers, (including Kyra Kirkland etc) he advises FEI, GD etc on welfare and training issues - he was expert adviser on the Rollkur debate. He trains throughout the world and willba available in the UK next March at a variety of venues - if you are interested - let me know and I will tell you where!

It was as a result of Andrew visiting Denmark this year and debating the issue of conflict riding and the punishment abuse with whips and spurs that fired a debate - like this one!
EPONA.TV (PLEASE GOOGLE THEM!!!) covered the debate and showed footage of riders punishing horses for non-performance and the public outcry changed the rule book within weeks.

It was Andrew McLean who advised me of the Denmark mandate.

The Scottish code of Practice for the welfare of Equidae can be found by googling it. It is the law in Scotland.

The analogy of the electic fence is a good one - as the horse performs the movement the negative pressure guides him in an alternative direction! (he tried to do something)- when he hot foots it away he doesnt then get an almight Zap up the arse*! which would be punishment...
 
So to summarise your lengthy and somewhat incoherent post, your credentials are unimportant yet you are the one to judge whether others may/mahy not discipline their horses.
Righty-o.
S
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Lovely, Well said!! Obviously some people by the amount of posts just want to have a good argument, and not really interested in improving the welfare of horses, what a shame!!!!!!!
 
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Lovely, Well said!! Obviously some people by the amount of posts just want to have a good argument, and not really interested in the welfare of horses, what a shame!!!!!!!

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Ohhh I like that logic
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Where do problem horses come from?
People who dont ask or question,just follow a method or teacher because they were told to......questioning methods and/or thinking is a GOOD thing for both horse and human.
 
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