Ban use of horse whips?

[Bellagate]

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(QR)
I still fail to see how a tap with the whip is abuse.
If a horse is out of line in the field the dominant horse will kick or bite it intending to hurt.
We (I would hope) use a tap to shock as you would a smack to a small child so the unwanted behaviour stops before it becomes a problem.
Ou of curiousity once,some friends and I did use a whip on arms to get an idea of the force used.While whacking it as hard as you can hurt,a tap as it woud be used did not,and a horse will feel the impact much less then a human arm.

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A horse would feel it alot more their skin is far more sensitive than ours.

 

[Shilasdair]

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(QR)
I still fail to see how a tap with the whip is abuse.
If a horse is out of line in the field the dominant horse will kick or bite it intending to hurt.
We (I would hope) use a tap to shock as you would a smack to a small child so the unwanted behaviour stops before it becomes a problem.
Ou of curiousity once,some friends and I did use a whip on arms to get an idea of the force used.While whacking it as hard as you can hurt,a tap as it woud be used did not,and a horse will feel the impact much less then a human arm.

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A horse would feel it alot more their skin is far more sensitive than ours.

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Your evidence being?
S

 

[Bellagate]

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It's an interesting debate.

For a horse to feel safe and secure with a rider/trainer, I think the rider has to be dominant. And clearly a human is not going to win in a kicking/biting match with up to 750kg of horseflesh. So, yes, I use a whip to reinforce my status, and to ensure that the horse respects my space at all times.
Do I beat my horses?
No, but I will smack them if I think it is needed.
I prefer to use more positive reinforcement - so praise, treats, rests, withdrawal of aids, etc, than negative, as I'm sure does everyone.
But the negative reinforcement or 'punishment' has to be there to make the horse physically respect you.

In the past I taught at a yard where a mother/daughter combination threw away their whips as 'instruments of torture'. They wanted to bond with their horses, instead, did join up, etc, were loving and caring.
Horse number one, Penny, became unrideable, and they retired her from work, and bought their second horse, Tilly. Within a month or two, Tilly refused to go out the gates, wouldn't go in the school either. They wanted to put them to sleep as unrideable, possibly due to brain tumours, but the riding school bought them.
Penny - took one smack and her working life was restored. Tilly took three smacks in the school, and then remembered how to work, too, so her future was assured.

S

[/ QUOTE ]Brilliant didn't realise solving problem horses was so easy!! Just whack them several times and bobs your uncle!!!!
Just wonder why there are so many of them if the answer is so straight forward.

 

[Onyxia]

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(QR)
I still fail to see how a tap with the whip is abuse.
If a horse is out of line in the field the dominant horse will kick or bite it intending to hurt.
We (I would hope) use a tap to shock as you would a smack to a small child so the unwanted behaviour stops before it becomes a problem.
Ou of curiousity once,some friends and I did use a whip on arms to get an idea of the force used.While whacking it as hard as you can hurt,a tap as it woud be used did not,and a horse will feel the impact much less then a human arm.

[/ QUOTE ]


A horse would feel it alot more their skin is far more sensitive than ours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your evidence being?
S

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Waiting for that too Shils

Expect it wil be along the lines of "you dont agree so are wrong"

Ellen W's display today was a prime example of bad use of the whip & spurs.
Everyone has seen it and she should be punished to the full extent of the rules-however the other 30 odd all used them well,when needed.
I think it would be sheer stupidity to bann something that most of us are able to use properly because a handfull cant,esp since we allready HAVE rules in place to punish those too handy with the whip.

 

[martlin]

[ QUOTE ]

Ellen W's display today was a prime example of bad use of the whip & spurs.
Everyone has seen it and she should be punished to the full extent of the rules-however the other 30 odd all used them well,when needed.
I think it would be sheer stupidity to bann something that most of us are able to use properly because a handfull cant,esp since we allready HAVE rules in place to punish those too handy with the whip.

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Very valid point, EW has done something I would call revenge, she took out her dissapointment on the horse - absolutely pointless, never mind unnecessary and bad PR

Now, if the mare backed off and then got slapped, kicked on down the bank (although one would have to be mad to launch a horse from the top

) it would make some sense, as the horse IMO would be punished for backing off and sent forward (or down as the case might be

)

 

[Bellagate]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(QR)
I still fail to see how a tap with the whip is abuse.
If a horse is out of line in the field the dominant horse will kick or bite it intending to hurt.
We (I would hope) use a tap to shock as you would a smack to a small child so the unwanted behaviour stops before it becomes a problem.
Ou of curiousity once,some friends and I did use a whip on arms to get an idea of the force used.While whacking it as hard as you can hurt,a tap as it woud be used did not,and a horse will feel the impact much less then a human arm.

[/ QUOTE ]


A horse would feel it alot more their skin is far more sensitive than ours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your evidence being?
S

[/ QUOTE ]
Waiting for that too Shils

Expect it wil be along the lines of "you dont agree so are wrong"

Ellen W's display today was a prime example of bad use of the whip & spurs.
Everyone has seen it and she should be punished to the full extent of the rules-however the other 30 odd all used them well,when needed.
I think it would be sheer stupidity to bann something that most of us are able to use properly because a handfull cant,esp since we allready HAVE rules in place to punish those too handy with the whip.

[/ QUOTE ]

The so called evidence is as follows - Its called the Pannicus response, this is the muscle twitch of the body which shirks of a flys foot when it lands - the skin is sooooo sensitive to external stimuli.

 

[Mithras]

Jo Macarthur - you are not going to read this but anyway I reserve the right to comment.

I think you are in this to make a name for yourself - yet another would-be "mesiah" jumping on the bandwagon with a neat handle.

But as a lawyer, I really must take exception to this comment of yours:-

"The Scottish code of Practice for the welfare of Equidae can be found by googling it. It is the law in Scotland."

It most certainly is not. Codes of practice are, at best, depending on their propriety, of persuasive value only. Your whole statement is utter nonsense, and it is extremely harmful when people make false statements about what is law and what is not, because you have caused a newspaper report to be printed in a Norfolk publication which misrepresents the law in Scotland.

This particular Code of Practice is entirely voluntary, not mandatory. It was introduced in Scotland to remarkably little publicity and was much derided as being totally unecessary by the few commentators who noticed it.

My personal opinion of it is that it the ejusdem generis rule isn't taken account of - ie it covers certain matters but ignores others. Its a nice idea but unfortunately part of this nanny state idea - horse welfare is an awful lot more than writing a nice essay on a piece of paper. It is also a really badly drafted, amateurish code of practice.

If you had actually read the Code, you would have noted the part in the Introduction which reads "Although the Code does not have legislative effect, it is intended to promote and give examples of good practice. "

I really don't think you have the competition record or training or coaching record to be advising anyone. There isn't really an issue here, and if you were more involved with the competitive world, rather than just picking out piecemeal examples of bad practice in amongst all the good, I might just listen to you. But no doubt there will be a load of novices out there who will follow you and a bit of a fuss might be created, which might earn you a bit of cash. I have just spent 4 days at the Royal Highland Show, competing and spectating, and am hard pushed to recall any use of the whip by adult riders at all in the showjumping.

If you were really interested in horse welfare, you would be better advised to campaign for something like introducing a mandatory test of horsemanship for owning horses. I am sure you mean well, but I do think people like you do the image of horse riders no good whatsoever.

 

[macarthur]

I am sorry that I have allowed an incorrect statement to slip into my last comment. What I should have said is that the Scottish Governement in 2008 (and again ratified on 19th February 2009) issued a directive named the Code of Practice for the Welfare of Equidae. The press have seen copies of all documentation - they are perfectly able to validate information.

It is not LEGAL to use the whip to punish equidae in Scotland.

Might I draw your attention instead to Ellen Whittaker - who purposely punished her horse with spurs for non-performance, which is well covered elswhere on this site - she has just blown your arguement out of the water...

Punishment goes on - it simply is not acceptable in modern society and it should be banned with the maximum penalties delivered to the rider.

I am not alone calling for this action, those that understand how horses learn, better than you and I... lead the arguement to have whips, spurs, tie downs and conflict riding banned when used to the detriment and punishment of horses.

It is not a singular arguement.

 

[Fairynuff]

After ploughing my way through most of this 'argument', all I have to say is this........God save the horse from the hands of these idiots

. A smack in time helps your horse to avoid the 'project horse' ads! Mairi-pro whip n spurs.

 

[Fairynuff]

while you are at it Jo, why dont you try banning the use of bits? Bits can be instrumented in punishing the horse.A good sock or two in the gob from an angry rider or leader can more painful than a whack on the arse. Come to think of it, any bit in the hands of an inexperienced rider can be a form of torture for the horse.Shall you make this your next crusade? Mairi.

 

[choffley]

I'm a very experience horsewoman who grew up traditional / old fashioned eventing yards with a style of riding and training which involved some very well timed smacks with a whip when required.

I've been using Andrew McLean's training techniques for the past 18 months on two very large sports horses both of whom have attitude and issues. I've had excellent results and both horses have become MUCH calmer and obedient.

However, I fear that this thread may be leading people to the conclusion that he is another one of the new age namby pamby types. Andrew advocates using the appropriate 'stimulus' to get the horse to respond, and that means getting tough when necessary. Through progressive training the horse is then encouraged to respond to a lighter aid.

He states that 'when [punishment] is used correctly, repetition of the behaviour becomes less likely.' However, he goes onto to state that it is problematic to ensure that the horse associates the punishment with the behaviour, therefore it is often devoid of training benefit.

It all comes back to good pragmatic horsemanship, being very consistent, not losing your temper and having excellent timing. A well timed smack may be the most appropriate action, provided that the horse is allowed to go forwards immediately and not forced to stand still while it is punished.

I had not heard about the Scottish code and was very interested to see that it states that 'round pens should not be used to discipline animals!

Does that mean that Natural Horsemanship is illegal in Scotland too?

 

[Mithras]

[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry that I have allowed an incorrect statement to slip into my last comment. What I should have said is that the Scottish Governement in 2008 (and again ratified on 19th February 2009) issued a directive named the Code of Practice for the Welfare of Equidae. The press have seen copies of all documentation - they are perfectly able to validate information.

It is not LEGAL to use the whip to punish equidae in Scotland.

Might I draw your attention instead to Ellen Whittaker - who purposely punished her horse with spurs for non-performance, which is well covered elswhere on this site - she has just blown your arguement out of the water...

Punishment goes on - it simply is not acceptable in modern society and it should be banned with the maximum penalties delivered to the rider.

I am not alone calling for this action, those that understand how horses learn, better than you and I... lead the arguement to have whips, spurs, tie downs and conflict riding banned when used to the detriment and punishment of horses.

It is not a singular arguement.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is utterly unnacceptable - you are making false and misleading statements about the law in Scotland and are continuing to do so - I am going to complain to the BHS about this. You have completely misunderstood the legislation and are not in a position to make statements about the law in other countries, but I am really concerned that people reading on here may be confused by what you are saying.

It doesn't really matter in this context when it was promulgated - you are just pasting something you don't understand. It was not "again ratified on 19th February".

Let me reiterate. I am a qualified solicitor, on the roll in Scotland. I lecture in law at at a leading Scottish university. The Scottish Code of Practice to which you refer is not a directive - Scottish law does not contain directives, but regulations. The difference is important because directives can in the European context be directly effective. This is not even a set of regulations - it is a voluntary, advisory Code of Practice which, at best, may be taken by a court as persuastive value pursuant to a court case under the primary legislation. When I say "may be" - that is up to the judge. Personally I think the Code of Practice simply confuses the issue and is muddled, and its perfectly possible a judge, using their discretion, may entirely ignore the Code of Practice and apply common sense instead. At best a judge will interpret it, at worst the Code of Practice will be ignored because its far too short, muddled, too prescriptive and not impartial.

It is not illegal to use the whip as punishment in Scotland. Utter, utter nonsense. You don't understand the law, you don't understand how it works.

There are going to be a lot of people in Scotland really annoyed about what you are saying about Scots law and I really think you should stop before you get into trouble. As I say, I am going to complain to the BHS, whom you appear to be a member of? I don't have anything against you personally but I cannot stand by and see the law of the country I live in misrepresented for someone's personal publicity campaign. I am also going to contact your local newspaper to ask them to print an apology for misrepresenting the law of Scotland.

Since you seem unable to understand the way in which the law works, despite it being explained to you, I doubt you are the best person to make subjective judgements about whether a whip is being used as punishment or as a training aid. Mhairi, in her short post, makes a far better attempt at explaining it than you do.

I also think the press are not able to make up their own minds about this and again, anyone with any common sense would recognise this. If someone representing themselves as an expert states a fact, local press will simply repeat it. You have clearly mislead your own local press in order to gain benefit and publicity.

Quite frankly, when you make reference to Ellen Whittaker's use of the spurs in this context of discussing whip use in such a childish manner, you don't yourself any favours.

I also jump BSJA and show to county level and have in the past been employed as a professional showjumping rider in Switzerland as well as a work rider in racing. I am currently schooling a problem horse that most people would be terrified to ride. I could probably set myself up as an expert and make a bit of money out of it, but I'm not doing so. There are plenty more experienced people out there than me with the qualifications and better competition records who are entitled to do so. However, I use myself as an analogy - I just don't think you have the competition experience to attempt to prescribe to the horse people of this country what they should and should not do. You don't even understand how the present rules govern this.

Can I stress again how extremely annoyed I am about this and how concerned I am that you are misleading people - I am going to do something about this.

 

[Mithras]

Again, reading through the link to the newspaper article, I see that the BHS have distanced themselves from your comments.

Does that not say it all? Quite honestly, I cannot see the issue here. There are very rare individual instances of whip abuse at competitions, which are dealt with strictly and appropriately. Considering the number of competitors there are, it is extremely rare. Racing bans jockeys guilty of whip abuse. I myself have seen a well known rider called up to the box and banned from taking part in the remainder of a BSJA show for smacking 6 times after being eliminated - and rightly so. He forfeited all his entries at that show and was reported to the BSJA, who no doubt, fined him. That was a small show with little audience to impress - the system and rules both worked well and yes, it wasn't horrendous whip abuse, the horse would probably have forgotten about it that night and showed no signs of real distress. But all those watching were sent a message. Again, I saw the same happen with a lesser incident at a small BSJA show in Aberdeen - the rules are being strictly enforced. Both these instances were long before the waste of time voluntary Code of Practice came into being.

So what is the issue? If the systems and rules in place are working, why make a fuss about it? Why not do it more quietly and contact the various constituent organisations of the disciplines, such as the BSJA, BE, BD, etc and encourage and work with them to enforce the perfectly adequate existing rules?

Of course, that would not gain you so much publicity and potential earning capacity I guess.

Lets take the instance of Ellen Whittaker, who arugably did not breach the rules on use of the whip by not raising it above shoulder level - the real issue was the use of her spurs and the timing of this, after elimination. If she were not aware of the rules, her behaviour would probably have been much worse and involved whip use. Should she disciplined by her governing body, the BSJA? Probably yes. And I suspect she will be and we will not see this again from her. But the rules did probably prevent her from unacceptably using the whip as punishment.
But yes, interesting that the BHS has distanced itself from your comments with a very common sense retort.

 

[Onyxia]

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The so called evidence is as follows - Its called the Pannicus response, this is the muscle twitch of the body which shirks of a flys foot when it lands - the skin is sooooo sensitive to external stimuli.

[/ QUOTE ]
"So called". Do you doubt your own evidence?

The argument is rubbish.
I can also feel a fly landing on my skin,but need a fair amount of force used in a whack for it to hurt .

 

[Gonetofrance]

Extremely well put, Headless one.

 

[TarrSteps]

[ QUOTE ]

He states that 'when [punishment] is used correctly, repetition of the behaviour becomes less likely.' However, he goes onto to state that it is problematic to ensure that the horse associates the punishment with the behaviour, therefore it is often devoid of training benefit.

It all comes back to good pragmatic horsemanship, being very consistent, not losing your temper and having excellent timing. A well timed smack may be the most appropriate action, provided that the horse is allowed to go forwards immediately and not forced to stand still while it is punished.


[/ QUOTE ]

I fear this idea is going to get lost in the general shuffle but it bears repeating towards the wider concept of humane and EFFECTIVE training. Punishing a horse for something that's done and over with, in a situation where the horse cannot "fix" the situation in order to "turn off" the punishment is simply not effective, quite apart from whether or not people feel it's "justified".

 

[Oddysmum]

At the moment we have a country full of youngsters that seem to have no respect for any kind of authority at all, be it teachers, police or parents. All because (IMO) we have let them grow up in a society that has decided that smacking is cruel and that they should be reasoned with - Have you tried reasoning with a three year old that is continually trying to do something you know is going to be dangerous ie pulling away from you and running off near a road. At the risk of being accused of being overly sentimental etc. (sorry can't remember the exact term when you humanise animals!) It is exactly the same with animals. I don't advocate beating, but if a short sharp slap does the trick then I will use that with my horse same as I have my (well behaved grown up) sons! For example, last week my horse was in one of his stubborn (he's a cob!) I am not going to listen to you, I am just going to forge ahead so that I can get home for my tea as quickly as possible moods! About half way round we pulled over for a car to pass, no sooner was the car half way past than he decided he was going to step out and continue on his way. He had already tried this once already, so at this point I said that's enough, smacked him on the rump with the whip and told him to stop being so bloody obstinate and to start listening! I got mutionous body language back, but next time we stopped he waited until I gave him the signal to move of before he moved out!

Although I agree that horses don't have pre-conceived ideas as revenge etc. they do most undoubtably have personalities, and speaking for myself (I have had my boy for 5 years now so know him inside out!) he most definitly has a stubborn, mischevious streak that I really would for the most part hate to see him lose, but that, without a doubt needs bringing back into line every now and again.

So with the above taken into account, I really think you cannot make blanket decisons and each incident needs to be judged independently.

 

[PapaFrita]

[ QUOTE ]

The so called evidence is as follows - Its called the Pannicus response, this is the muscle twitch of the body which shirks of a flys foot when it lands - the skin is sooooo sensitive to external stimuli.

[/ QUOTE ]
I postulate that they can feel a fly because the fly moves the hairs, which 'tickle'. I can feel a fly as well, but only if it lands where I have hairs. If it lands on the back of my hand (where I happen to be bald), I can't feel a thing. Obviously I'm not a horse, but I don't believe a horse's skin IS as sensitive as mine.

 

[PapaFrita]

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while you are at it Jo, why dont you try banning the use of bits? Bits can be instrumented in punishing the horse.A good sock or two in the gob from an angry rider or leader can more painful than a whack on the arse. Come to think of it, any bit in the hands of an inexperienced rider can be a form of torture for the horse.Shall you make this your next crusade? Mairi.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if we're banning bits, we should get rid of flash/crank/drop/grackle nosebands, martingales and DEFINITELY draw reins

 

[martlin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
while you are at it Jo, why dont you try banning the use of bits? Bits can be instrumented in punishing the horse.A good sock or two in the gob from an angry rider or leader can more painful than a whack on the arse. Come to think of it, any bit in the hands of an inexperienced rider can be a form of torture for the horse.Shall you make this your next crusade? Mairi.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if we're banning bits, we should get rid of flash/crank/drop/grackle nosebands, martingales and DEFINITELY draw reins

[/ QUOTE ]

In fact, we should just go the whole hog and ban the riders

 

[PapaFrita]

[ QUOTE ]
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while you are at it Jo, why dont you try banning the use of bits? Bits can be instrumented in punishing the horse.A good sock or two in the gob from an angry rider or leader can more painful than a whack on the arse. Come to think of it, any bit in the hands of an inexperienced rider can be a form of torture for the horse.Shall you make this your next crusade? Mairi.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if we're banning bits, we should get rid of flash/crank/drop/grackle nosebands, martingales and DEFINITELY draw reins

[/ QUOTE ]

In fact, we should just go the whole hog and ban the riders

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, I think all our horses should be turned away to live as one with nature...

 

[martlin]

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while you are at it Jo, why dont you try banning the use of bits? Bits can be instrumented in punishing the horse.A good sock or two in the gob from an angry rider or leader can more painful than a whack on the arse. Come to think of it, any bit in the hands of an inexperienced rider can be a form of torture for the horse.Shall you make this your next crusade? Mairi.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if we're banning bits, we should get rid of flash/crank/drop/grackle nosebands, martingales and DEFINITELY draw reins

[/ QUOTE ]



In fact, we should just go the whole hog and ban the riders

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, I think all our horses should be turned away to live as one with nature...

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be lovely, I could spend the rest of my life lounging

Very tempting indeed

 

[PapaFrita]

BUT, there's a catch you see... whilst we wouldn't be allowed actually to RIDE our horses, we would be obliged (possibly by law) to provide regular worming, vaccinations, extra feed in winter, etc, etc...

 

[Fairynuff]

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BUT, there's a catch you see... whilst we wouldn't be allowed actually to RIDE our horses, we would be obliged (possibly by law) to provide regular worming, vaccinations, extra feed in winter, etc, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

But that would be going AGAINST nature!!!!!!!!!!!

Cant have that PF, can we

Mx

 

[PapaFrita]

It is somewhat ironic, isn't it?

Perhaps we might be allowed to ride our horses bareback and brideless providing we get the horse's permission... ?

 

[brighthair]

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(QR)
I still fail to see how a tap with the whip is abuse.
If a horse is out of line in the field the dominant horse will kick or bite it intending to hurt.
We (I would hope) use a tap to shock as you would a smack to a small child so the unwanted behaviour stops before it becomes a problem.
Ou of curiousity once,some friends and I did use a whip on arms to get an idea of the force used.While whacking it as hard as you can hurt,a tap as it woud be used did not,and a horse will feel the impact much less then a human arm.

[/ QUOTE ]


A horse would feel it alot more their skin is far more sensitive than ours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your evidence being?
S

[/ QUOTE ]

so if their skin is more sensitive then why - when my horse grooms me when I scratch him, it bloody hurts! But horses love grooming each other, and use their teeth to do it!

 

[isabella]

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without a whip i would not be able to ride my horse in an indoor arena

[/ QUOTE ]

without a whip my mare would happily stand in the middle of the road and go to sleep unless we turned for home lol