Banning Clone Horses from Competition

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JJ1987

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Thoughts on this? Seems a little unfair in terms of use of horse but if the purpose of cloning is for breeding maybe doesn't affect them so much?
Will a clone necessarily be as great as the original - after all surely some of the talent comes from how the horse was brought up/trained/environment kept in etc (social stimulants rather than just genetics) and this may not necessarily be repeated or be as effective
Having a different rider must also be taken into account as surely some of the cloned horses won't have the same rider the original had?
How many clones are there now?
 
Hey maybe one day there will be classes for Gem Twist Clones...... as someone said above riders training etc will make a different to the horses i'm sure..............

So You can see it now Class 1 Gem Twist jumping....... lets see who is the best rider/trainer.
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I can see why people want to clone especially for breeding purposes as having a foal sired by the clone would have the same genetic 'value' as one sired by the original.

However, it just doesn't really sit right with me. I don't know a huge amount about it and I can see both points of view when it comes to competing but I just think that we want to be expanding the gene pool not reducing it.
 
I don't understand on what basis they could ban cloned horses from competition? Do they think they will have a better chance of winning? If so should they not ban all well bred horses from the arena on the same basis? A well bred horse from proven linage wou;d have as much chance as a clone.

A horse's perforamce is based so much on the mare's attitude toward them as a foal, environment, training etc that a clone may well have the similar physical attributes as it's clonee (heehee I made that word up, what do you call teh animal being cloned?!) but it's brain will not fire the same way. For me it's mind over matter everytime, a horse with the right attitude can reach the top of it's game with ease, a horse with the right conformation may well look pleasing to the eye but that doesn't guarantee success!
 
Putting the ethical debate to one side for the moment; there are a huge nimber of other factors that come into play here. The health of the 'host' mare while carrying the clone: The nutrition of the cloned foal oceborn: The training of said foal and then obviously the 'bond' between horse and rider. All play a large part in the development of any horse.

At a practical level i don't see how a ban could be implemented anyway
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There is no requirement at present to declare or even know a horses breeding before registering it to compete...so how could they possibly trace these clones and their offspring
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The article mention 'banning cloned horses and their offspring' so there wouldn't be much point in cloning horses for breeding either. I'm not entirely sure why - being a clone does not necessarily mean that an animal will be as good as the animal it was cloned from - identical twins are technically clones but are not the same. Banning the offspring of cloned horses makes even less sense, how are they different to any other foals of successful parents? If cloning horses for breeding can widen the gene pool than surely that is a good thing.
 
I'm confusedas to how cloning wouldwiden the geneppol. surely it would narrow it producing horses with identical genetic 'data'. And then there will also be a much larger number of foals sired by the original or clone who have 50% the same genetic data.
 
Yes, sorry, should have made my post clearer. I meant it could widen the gene pool in that if you take, say competition horses, you could clone a stallion version of a successful gelding and therefore could increase the number of 'good' stallions available.
 
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And then there will also be a much larger number of foals sired by the original or clone who have 50% the same genetic data.

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Heehee they are practically doing it in Holland already, have you seen Nimmerdor and all his thousands of offspring? They are all like little clones and you've got one!
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In September 2003, Hugo Simon, rider of ET and Eic Palmer founded Cryozootech. ET won all the major international show jumping competitions, in fact ET was No 1 in the FEI Rankings for three years in a row. ET is a horse of a modern type, light, rapid and nimble but a gelding now twenty years of age.

On 2nd June 2006, the stallion know as ET Cryozootech was born, he is undergoing the registration procedure for the Zangersheide Studbook, which has also registered Pieraz and Paris -Texas, the Quidam de Revel clone.

ET Cyrozootech's first foals are due in 2009.

Without the cloning technique, horses of exceptional genetic heritage are lost to breeders for ever and that is the point now.

In future, there will be competition horses that have a father who is a clone of the original but that is the choice of the breeder, who like any other breeder will select the best stallion for his mare.

This process is frontier science and at this stage only really available for the most successful international competition horses who cannot breed due to castration at an earlier stage of their lives.

The BSJA are the national governing body only for show jumping competitions in the United Kingdom that have affiliated to that association but competition horses of whatever nature, cloned or otherwise may register with other international studbooks, then obtain an FEI passport thus allowing them to compete where ever the rider deems appropriate, including the United Kingdom.
 
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Without the cloning technique, horses of exceptional genetic heritage are lost to breeders for ever and that is the point now.

In future, there will be competition horses that have a father who is a clone of the original but that is the choice of the breeder, who like any other breeder will select the best stallion for his mare.


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Only if national federations allow them to compete, and they don't all lobby the FEI to ban them.

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This process is frontier science and at this stage only really available for the most successful international competition horses who cannot breed due to castration at an earlier stage of their llives.


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True. But is it necessary science
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The BSJA are the national governing body only for show jumping competitions in the United Kingdom that have affiliated to that association but competition horses of whatever nature, cloned or otherwise may register with other international studbooks, then obtain an FEI passport thus allowing them to compete where ever the rider deems approprite, including the United Kingdom.

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It's not just the BSJA who are concerned about the ramifications of this process...if enough national federations work together, the whole 'ideal' will be dead before it was ever live
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I hope that the continental societies will embrace the new science rather than being scared of it.

Zangersheide are already involved and supporting the science

The BSJA plan to ban offspring of cloned stallions jumping would seem unworkable, how many horses are competing now with unknown or unregistered breeding ?


How many horses are bred on the continental stud farms annually and how would the BSJA hope to regulate the semen used on all these farms.

To close the rings to offsping of cloned stalions they would have to dna test every new horse registered in the uk and every visiting horse from abroad.

They would be better spending their time and money on jumping rather than getting involved in this.
 
I think it's quite interesting.. from a science point of view!
cloning a sheep doesn't really tell you much, as one sheep is much the same as the next.. along with most other animals!
But with a horse, and a top class one at that, they'll truely be able to tell if the clone is going to be as good as the origional, or if it has temprement floors.
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*please excuse my spelling*
 
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But with a horse, and a top class one at that, they'll truely be able to tell if the clone is going to be as good as the origional, or if it has temprement floors.
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I don't quite understand WHY the BSJA is getting its knickers in a twist over this one. (Although I'm not sure that I really AGREE with cloning.)

It COULD answer some age old questions - though. Temperament is a big one - how many top class geldings would have been top class stallions, for example. MANY breeders choose who to geld at least partly on temperament - and those youngsters who are too 'iffy' in that regard become geldings. How much does testosterone or even the physical presence of testicles influence a horse's ability/desire to win (in racehorses in particular, those 'appendages' can cause horses to lose purely because they can 'pinch' themselves while racing and the pain makes them stop!)

How much difference does early upbringing/experience and handling really make? There are SO many variables - the influence of the 'mother', the influence of other mares/foal which a horse is brought up with), its early interactions with humans, its backing and early schooling, and its early competition success.

If it's being done, then the cloned offspring MUST be allowed to compete - otherwise the whole procedure is a waste of time, money & effort IMHO - and using these cloned stallions would be pretty hit & miss.
 
I do not really agree with the ethics of clonning whether it be horses or any other animal or person, but it happens and I am sure the boundaries will be continually pushed by scientists. Was it not the UK that developed the techniques in the first place?

I agree with what Aredis is saying and personally I do not think it will make any difference at all to the performance of a horse if it is a clone of a previous champion. yes it may look the same and have the same genes, but there are so many other outside influences such as development, which will effect the way a horse thinks, training and riding skills and good old fashion luck that will affect the performance. In effect you are just introducing a new blood line just the same as breeders use proven blood lines to try and narrow the odds to getting the best horse they can.

More time and effort should be spent in cleaning up the sport of showjumping with regards to people using drugs for enhanced performance, which does make a difference, before worrying about what a clone may or may not do, otherwise there will be so little interest in the sport that no one will give a toss whether the horse is a clone or a donkey.

Sorry Janet, I wasn't copying you. we must have been thinking the same things at the same time (which is worrying on your part), you must have a better computer than me and I stopped for a coffee half way through
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With regards to temperament and attitude, I think this is the biggest factor of a performance horse just like any other sportsperson and why only a small percentage are able to reach the top.

Having breed 3 full brothers and sisters and all brought up roughly the same way, you do notice the difference, from the day they are born. They all have ability (which could be the genes) but physically and mentally they are all completely different and why I do not think it will be a problem for clones to compete on a level playing field.
 
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I think it's quite interesting.. from a science point of view!
cloning a sheep doesn't really tell you much, as one sheep is much the same as the next.. along with most other animals!
But with a horse, and a top class one at that, they'll truely be able to tell if the clone is going to be as good as the origional, or if it has temprement floors.
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*please excuse my spelling*

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And how much is to do with the rider...ethics aside it would be very interisting to see all our top riders sitting on the same "raw material" and what difference their way of riding and training has on the horse.

I cant see any reason to bann cloaned horses and their ofspring from competion though,probably just being stupid so can anyone explain why it would be a bad hting?
 
I think the rules may change, particularly if there proves or appears to be no advantage to being the clone of a champion. The point about allowing the genes of a successful gelding (hindsight problem no longer) to continue seems very reasonable as long as the cloned animals don't suffer premature ageing, as I thought Dolly the sheep did. Maybe I'm wrong here or they have ironed the wrinkles out since then?

I'd love another Polly, Meg and Fin to enjoy their baby years which we have missed
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If cloning were the only way to reproduce (and it was totally problem-free) you might get a huge reduction in the random matings, crap stock and markets full of worthless rubbish sent from pillar to post we are plagued with today.
 
I think using clones in breeding, narrows the geneticpossibilitys. If clones aren't allowed in competions, less people would use them in breeding.

I wouldn't buy tickets to a Ghotenburg Horse Show, were one class had 24 (or more/less) Miltons starting. Not even if they were ridden by John Whittaker clones. I actually wish just as much for Whittaker-wins as Swedish-wins, but I still wouldn't want more than one John, Michael, Robert...

No, I'm for the Thoroughbred-view, no clones!

from Sweden.
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I don't like the idea about getting clones from successful geldings either, so that they could be used in breeding. There was some reason for gelding the horse in the first place, temperamental, looks whatever.

And I don't believe it would get Fugly Horse of The Day out of a blog, because even with good clones available, I'm sure there would be lots of people breeding crap anyway.


from Sweden.
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Most colts are gelded as standard in the UK as soon as they reach 12 months, not many people even consider keeping them entire. The practicalities of keeping a stallion outweighs the chances of it developing into a champion. There are plenty of gelding with better attitudes and better confirmation than many stallion that stand at stud, would it not widen the gene pool if the geldings that went on to great things could be bred from via cloning? Would that not increase the gene pool as not only would breeder have the choice of the stallions already standing but would also now have option of champion geldings clones that stand at stud?
 
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I think using clones in breeding, narrows the geneticpossibilitys. If clones aren't allowed in competions, less people would use them in breeding.

I wouldn't buy tickets to a Ghotenburg Horse Show, were one class had 24 (or more/less) Miltons starting. Not even if they were ridden by John Whittaker clones. I actually wish just as much for Whittaker-wins as Swedish-wins, but I still wouldn't want more than one John, Michael, Robert...

No, I'm for the Thoroughbred-view, no clones!

from Sweden.
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Personally i think the Whitaker's have already 'perfected' this technology and the sooner they ban them from competition (or at least television interviews
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I think they should be allowed to compete. I can't see why it shold affect results at all as there's so much more to performance than DNA.

Science certainly doesn't have the answer to everything and I read recently that embryo transfer is becoming less popular abroad due to the wrong surregate mares being use. Apparently if you use a very quiet mare that is lazy and doesn't move a great deal you will produce a very lazy foal that also doesn't want to move a great deal - so it doesn't perform despite its genetics. Also there are issues with mitochondrial DNA. Even though the clone would have mitochondrial DNA (given to the clone by its own mother) I read somewhere that its thought the surregate mother contributes some mitochoindrial DNA while the foal is in the womb - and as mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell and deals with transfer of energy - could that be why foals born to lazy surrogates become lazy themselves? How do TB foals born to their natural mothers but raised by surrogates fair? I would have thought if lazy mother = lazy foal they would have found that out by now - so could it be mitohondrial DNA that causes this lazy foal syndrome?

This is just what I have read and I don't know if the science behind this is bad so don't flame me!
 
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