Barbaric

Tiddlypom said:
You people dismissing it as barely a flick need to get real as to how that clip would appear to a non horsey muggle.

Of course the sabs posted it for maximum effect, that’s what they do.
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Yes, the sabs will have posted for effect, although with the Warwickshire they have a lot of choice! I am not a non horsey muggle by any means but times are changing. You can not complain about what CDJ did or other horrors that happen but say what that rider did is ok.
Its all sides of the same coin. Perception is changing and if you still want to be riding in 20 years things are going to have to change.
Will we still be owning horses in 20 years? Who knows but with the lack of safe hacking, lack of land and rise in costs its certainly going the way of horses being only seen in zoos etc in the future.
People need to take off there blindfolds. The world is changing.
 
Well I am old, I no longer have a horse but almost without exception the greatest cruelty against any animals that I have personally witnessed and been involved with in rescue situations have come from generations well below my age range. But of course older individuals have also played their part over the years, it would be stupid to claim otherwise.

In fact the instance I mentioned above was made by someone far younger than me who claims to be a great animal lover and much wiser than old forum farts like me, we obviously know nothing.:rolleyes:

Some very ageist distraction going on here folks, do your research and due diligence.😉
 
Mrs. Jingle said:
Well I am old, I no longer have a horse but almost without exception the greatest cruelty against any animals that I have personally witnessed and been involved with in rescue situations have come from generations well below my age range. But of course older individuals have also played their part over the years, it would be stupid to claim otherwise.

In fact the instance I mentioned above was made by someone far younger than me who claims to be a great animal lover and much wiser than old forum farts like me, we obviously know nothing.:rolleyes:

Some very ageist distraction going on here folks, do your research and due diligence.😉
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I am aware of what you mean and yes there is some hypocrisy going on here without doubt. :rolleyes::rolleyes: Not sure about agism. However people need to realise that times are changing and what we did in our youth , me included like" give him a crack" is no longer acceptable. I can not say hand on heart that I have never hit a horse but it does not make it right.
Some horse people need to realise that things are changing. Its got nothing to do with age, Im certainly not young anymore. Times are changing.
 
Mrs. Jingle said:
I have seen and read on here far more inhumane and cruel practices condoned and even recommended on here. Would you believe I once read on this forum someone suggesting boiling sugar water thrown over unwanted neighbourhood cats, now that dear reader, is barbaric I am sure you will agree.😡
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Quite.

In March 2023 the below was posted by a frequent flyer on HHO re neighbourhood cats. So who is proposing a barbaric practice here, then 🤔. Pots and kettles, methinks.

Those of us who noticed this at the time were aghast, but not all of us were surprised.

Unfortunately in my street there are about bloody 12 of them so if i catch them on my bins again they are likely to end up scolded with hot sugary water or in the bin!
Absolutely sick to death, will have to jeyes fluid my garden furniture now!
 
I just find it confusing that we put horses in these situations where they can get scared and instead of calling it maybe getting off showing the horse it’s not scary by walking through together
Instead the norm is to cause pain to force them to do it while still scared because “how dare they not do what they’re told and when I want”
 
Barton Bounty said:
I think that methods like this are NOT instilled in us younger people , or people who even have current horses to be honest. Maybe it is a generational thing that its ok, who knows.
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I'm going to pick up on this because I noticed on another thread you suggested anyone that didn't agree with you must be older and only had horses 50 years ago.
I think you've got to just accept some people have different views to you. I'm far younger than you and currently own horses 😱
 
Sandstone1 said:
Yes, the sabs will have posted for effect, although with the Warwickshire they have a lot of choice! I am not a non horsey muggle by any means but times are changing. You can not complain about what CDJ did or other horrors that happen but say what that rider did is ok.
Its all sides of the same coin. Perception is changing and if you still want to be riding in 20 years things are going to have to change.
Will we still be owning horses in 20 years? Who knows but with the lack of safe hacking, lack of land and rise in costs its certainly going the way of horses being only seen in zoos etc in the future.
People need to take off there blindfolds. The world is changing.
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We will still be riding in 20 years and I'll tell you why. Because Horse Racing is an ENORMOUS generator of funds for the Government and is a sport heavily supported by the working class.
Whilst racing continues they will never be able to ban riding for leisure.

We have a large livery yard and I guarantee that the most cruel practices I see are not performed by those who compete or hunt but by those who kill their horses with kindness, those who cannot spot lameness and continue to ride their lame horses despite this being pointed out to them, by those who happily ride despite being told by the saddle fitter that they are far too heavy for their horse and by those who keep their old horse going when it is utterly desperate to be put down, I could go on.

There is far more cruelty practiced in the name of 'love' than in chastisement.
 
Perhaps those leaning on the gate could have opened that gate wide, then stood back, to make passage as safe and inviting as possible for an obviously-wary horse?
Not very horse-friendly or horse-aware behaviour, and neither do the observers show understanding of equine body language:
The bay never so much as flinched or flicked an ear at the ‘beating’, clearly focused on the tableaux in front.
Ever witnessed horses disciplining each other, or chivvying them forwards? Lunging, biting, kicking, harrying them physically until correct subservience is shown - try observing ferals in the natural state, it certainly isn’t kid gloves.
 
minesadouble said:
We will still be riding in 20 years and I'll tell you why. Because Horse Racing is an ENORMOUS generator of funds for the Government and is a sport heavily supported by the working class.
Whilst racing continues they will never be able to ban riding for leisure.

We have a large livery yard and I guarantee that the most cruel practices I see are not performed by those who compete or hunt but by those who kill their horses with kindness, those who cannot spot lameness and continue to ride their lame horses despite this being pointed out to them, by those who happily ride despite being told by the saddle fitter that they are far too heavy for their horse and by those who keep their old horse going when it is utterly desperate to be put down, I could go on.

There is far more cruelty practiced in the name of 'love' than in chastisement.
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I agree with what you’re saying but I would argue that those people would be uneducated as well as love their horses in terms of being unable to spot lameness and keeping a horse going longer.

But People who ride horses knowing they’re too big and have been told they are by a professional don’t love their horses in my opinion

I completely agree with your point tho as some people don’t mean to be cruel but are
 
Exasperated said:
Perhaps those leaning on the gate could have opened that gate wide, then stood back, to make passage as safe and inviting as possible for an obviously-wary horse?
Not very horse-friendly or horse-aware behaviour, and neither do the observers show understanding of equine body language:
The bay never so much as flinched or flicked an ear at the ‘beating’, clearly focused on the tableaux in front.
Ever witnessed horses disciplining each other, or chivvying them forwards? Lunging, biting, kicking, harrying them physically until correct subservience is shown - try observing ferals in the natural state, it certainly isn’t kid gloves.
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I wonder if the gate was dropped and wouldn't open further but certainly agree if it would it should have been. The people leaning on it look like hunt supporters so you would think they would be horse aware but I think we all know a few horsey people who apparently haven't learnt anything about them despite years around them. But the idea that it's fine to treat horses as other horses might - well I guess that's ok if you don't mind the same coming back in the opposite direction but I'd rather teach them how to communicate with humans tbh.

ETA in the true natural state or as close to it as we can observe the kind of interactions you mention are rare. Worth having a look at Lucy Rees' work for an insight into how 'wild' horses mainly communicate. They are a lot more common in domesticated horses, but they are usually subject to more stressors than wild horses.
 
I sometimes do something very similar with a leadrope, when taking the boys out to the field.
If one of the 3yros is at the front, they can jib a bit so they get a leadrope end across their bum and off they go.

It's not barbaric, my boys certainly don't show any ill effects and I wouldn't mind who filmed me doing it.
There is social license but equally we're dealing with 700kg animals and sometimes a kiss on the nose doesn't solve every issue and create a well rounded horse.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Quite.

In March 2023 the below was posted by a frequent flyer on HHO re neighbourhood cats. So who is proposing a barbaric practice here, then 🤔. Pots and kettles, methinks.

Those of us who noticed this at the time were aghast, but not all of us were surprised.

Unfortunately in my street there are about bloody 12 of them so if i catch them on my bins again they are likely to end up scolded with hot sugary water or in the bin!
Absolutely sick to death, will have to jeyes fluid my garden furniture now!
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Oops!
Did a little search, I think I know which practice is more 'Barbaric'.
I'm hoping this was tongue in cheek.
 
rextherobber said:
Isn't the obstacle the tree trunk partially blocking the gate? Haven't the people helpfully opened the gate for them? Didn't the man hit a horse which was already moving forward? Wasn't that a pretty stupid thing to do, in the face of the scrutiny all equestrian sports are under at the moment?
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YEs just awful and I am horrified at the people saying its ok or worse things have happened. He wasnt even on the bloody horse grrr so angry
 
Bellaboo18 said:
I'm going to pick up on this because I noticed on another thread you suggested anyone that didn't agree with you must be older and only had horses 50 years ago.
I think you've got to just accept some people have different views to you. I'm far younger than you and currently own horses 😱
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I'm 30 so I'm not sure the age thing is that true either.
 
Mrs. Jingle said:
I have seen and read on here far more inhumane and cruel practices condoned and even recommended on here. Would you believe I once read on this forum someone suggesting boiling sugar water thrown over unwanted neighbourhood cats, now that dear reader, is barbaric I am sure you will agree.😡
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Not on here but I saw on a US FB page someone asked how they should teach their (Mustang) horse to tie up. Advice was to tie a rope round their middle which then runs through the halter and is tied to something fixed, so when they pull back the rope tightens round their girth area. It seemed to be a perfectly acceptable thing to do 😯
 
Barton Bounty said:
BRB just going to stir my cauldron 🤣🤣


Cannot see half the comments as those are on my block list but fire away between yourselves, its sure entertaining for everyone else 🤣🤣🤣and all the same folks as usual 🤣🤣🤣
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With all due respect and I don't mean this with any offense but is there any point being on a forum if half of the regular posters are blocked? 🤔
 
Barton Bounty said:
I think that methods like this are NOT instilled in us younger people , or people who even have current horses to be honest. Maybe it is a generational thing that its ok, who knows.
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Interested to know which generation this refers to, if they consider throwing boiling water at a cat okay, but the above video is barbaric?

I'm 28 and it's certainly not mine!
 
It’s crap horsemanship and it’s absolutely not what the respectable horse owning population should want to show to the public.

But calling it barbaric is disproportionate, and to say that it is “the same as what CDJ did” (or any of the other recent dressage scandals) is to belittle the sustained nature of that sort of training and the psychological damage that does. A single strike to a horse’s quarters might momentarily hurt, but I really don’t think that horse was significantly negatively affected by it - unlike the training exhibited by CDJ et al. Conflating this kind of rubbish training with the CDJ situation is appalling because it lessens her guilt.

But hey, why let common sense get in the way of winding people up on the internet…
 
Burnttoast said:
I wonder if the gate was dropped and wouldn't open further but certainly agree if it would it should have been. The people leaning on it look like hunt supporters so you would think they would be horse aware but I think we all know a few horsey people who apparently haven't learnt anything about them despite years around them. But the idea that it's fine to treat horses as other horses might - well I guess that's ok if you don't mind the same coming back in the opposite direction but I'd rather teach them how to communicate with humans tbh.

ETA in the true natural state or as close to it as we can observe the kind of interactions you mention are rare. Worth having a look at Lucy Rees' work for an insight into how 'wild' horses mainly communicate. They are a lot more common in domesticated horses, but they are usually subject to more stressors than wild horses.
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No, you misunderstand, I am not advocating any such thing (altho LEARNING from natural equine behaviour as Monty Robert, Lucy Rees etc advocate, is a different topic altogether).

This is about misapplication of adjective ‘barbaric’ (“savagely cruel, primitive, unsophisticated”, from ‘barbarism’: “absence of culture and civilisation, extreme cruelty or brutality”), inappropriately and disproportionately used in the context of this brief footage - irrespective of whether one loves or loathes any form of hunting. Final comment from observer leaning on said gate suggests disapproval of the riders’ activity, so probably in latter category, and she’s certainly not helping them or the horses to easily pass.

But, by no stretch of the imagination has the bay horse experienced ‘barbaric’ treatment from the rider of the chestnut, here.

Of course, it is entirely possible that bay is subsequently given a thorough thrashing with the thonged whip (not as easy as some respondents seem to think, basic physics, could inflict more punishment with a long thin dressage whip, which I’m not advocating either!),
but not from this evidence, and evidence is important with such an emotive topic.
 
Exasperated said:
No, you misunderstand, I am not advocating any such thing (altho LEARNING from natural equine behaviour as Monty Robert, Lucy Rees etc advocate, is a different topic altogether).

This is about misapplication of adjective ‘barbaric’ (“savagely cruel, primitive, unsophisticated”, from ‘barbarism’: “absence of culture and civilisation, extreme cruelty or brutality”), inappropriately and disproportionately used in the context of this brief footage - irrespective of whether one loves or loathes any form of hunting. Final comment from observer leaning on said gate suggests disapproval of the riders’ activity, so probably in latter category, and she’s certainly not helping them or the horses to easily pass.

But, by no stretch of the imagination has the bay horse experienced ‘barbaric’ treatment from the rider of the chestnut, here.

Of course, it is entirely possible that bay is subsequently given a thorough thrashing with the thonged whip (not as easy as some respondents seem to think, basic physics, could inflict more punishment with a long thin dressage whip, which I’m not advocating either!),
but not from this evidence, and evidence is important with such an emotive topic.
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Apparently I misunderstood a point you didn't actually make in your original comment (the objection to the semantics), though now you've made it I am happy to agree, largely.
 
JFTDWS said:
It’s crap horsemanship and it’s absolutely not what the respectable horse owning population should want to show to the public.

But calling it barbaric is disproportionate, and to say that it is “the same as what CDJ did” (or any of the other recent dressage scandals) is to belittle the sustained nature of that sort of training and the psychological damage that does. A single strike to a horse’s quarters might momentarily hurt, but I really don’t think that horse was significantly negatively affected by it - unlike the training exhibited by CDJ et al. Conflating this kind of rubbish training with the CDJ situation is appalling because it lessens her guilt.

But hey, why let common sense get in the way of winding people up on the internet…
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tbf there are two assumptions here for which there's no hard evidence: 1. that CDJ's behaviour was part of her larger system (probable, given what else we know, but unknowable in her case as yet) and 2. that the people in this video don't behave like this towards their horses on a regular basis (given what I saw when I worked in hunting I'm able to believe that they may be equally crappy on any other occasion their will is thwarted by the horse's lack of confidence)
 
Wizpop said:
To be honest, I avoided watching the video due to the title, but then did watch after reading some of the comments. I’m the first to be up in arms regarding cruelty, but I honestly can’t see that the use of the whip was aggressive in this case.
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I did find the over head smack pretty aggressive. I have no idea how you’re supposed to use that kind of whip but bringing in down over your head seems quite an aggressive way to hit something. I’ve watched it a few times to make sure I had watched it properly and that I wasn’t exaggerating what I was watching but I do find it fairly uncomfortable watching.

Regardless what activity the rider is doing I think these kind of discussions are only beneficial to horse welfare.
 
Burnttoast said:
tbf there are two assumptions here for which there's no hard evidence: 1. that CDJ's behaviour was part of her larger system (probable, given what else we know, but unknowable in her case as yet) and 2. that the people in this video don't behave like this towards their horses on a regular basis (given what I saw when I worked in hunting I'm able to believe that they may be equally crappy on any other occasion their will is thwarted by the horse's lack of confidence)
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Well no - the comments are based solely on the behaviour shown, the evidence.

The evidence shows a sustained assault by CDJ. The evidence shows a single strike without repetition during the event (the progress through the gate).

I have no doubt that both are part of a wider training system that relies on unnecessary force, but that is irrelevant in the assessment of the video evidence as isolated “provable” incidents.

ETA - for clarity, a single strike with an open exit for the horse - move forward, away from the unpleasant stimulus - is not comparable in psychological terms to the repeated application of force from which the horse has no easy means of escape. That’s the “sustained nature” I’m referring to, not whether or not these sorts of incidents happen once, rarely, frequently, daily or worse…
 
ihatework said:
Hot sugary water indeed - how anyone can take any comment on welfare from that poster seriously now, god only knows.
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I guess it depends on whether it was said tongue in cheek, I threatened to tie my cob up outside Beeston cattle market (when it was still operating) at times when we were having a bad day. I wasnt actually going to do it. Tone gets lost on the internet
 
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