bare foot advice

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GermanyJo

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Hi
I have posted previously showing the progress of my boy with no shoes. I was really pleased and there were some nice changes.
However, end of May he went lame in front - vet did work up - blocked on a high suspensory block Left , then showed slight lameness also RF .. scans showed some slight damage LF ... nothing much too see RF. So ... he was on box rest with 20 mins in hand walking , had his course of Shockwave therapy ... after 6 weeks everything looked good so started riding ... after 2 days riding he was then lame behind ! ... after more investigation it looks to be in the back (muscle not bone).
Anyway .. after the high suspensory issue my vet insisted that he was shod in front .. strange shoes I have never seen before with a half closed toe .. He did explain the logic to me , none of which sounded very logical to me.
To be honest I am of the opinion at the moment that he has had some weakness in this back prior to this lameness and am wondering if the lameness in front is a sympton of what was going on in the back .. and then 7 weeks box rest has just 'escalated' the back problem due to the standing for weeks on end.

So .. cut a long story short, after asking my vet if the shoes were short term thing and i could removed after a few months or not , he told me if the horse was his he would never leave him barefoot again (pictures from my boys feet in previous posts .. they are definately not bad) .. however .. he is a bit 'old school' and am really considering ignoring him and when he is due to be shod again , removing and going back to barefoot again ... obviously I am going to look an idiot if he goes lame again .. but I am really hating him having shoes on again , especially after seeing the massive improvements we had

what would you barefoot experts do ? .. have you any experience with ligament injuries and times when it would not be sensible to keep on barefoot ? or is it definately better to keep the shoes off ?

would really appreciate some feedback as i know there are many of you on here with alot of experience of this
 
I would like your vet to explain how he thinks shoes are supporting a strain in the suspensories somewhere below the knee. Unless he has been shod with wedges or in some way to stop the pastern dropping, then I can't see how shoes will affect this injury, other than possibly to weaken the heels over time and create more strain.
 
Exactly my thoughts cptrayes, he did try to explain saying it was supposed to relieve the pressure on the lig, but still not clear why the half covered toe would do that, the shoe is level, no raised heel, just from the front of the frog forward has a plate over. Normally I follow vets instructions to the letter, but this time I am not so sure. The bare foot debate is years behind here in Germany
 
GermanyJo said:
Exactly my thoughts cptrayes, he did try to explain saying it was supposed to relieve the pressure on the lig, but still not clear why the half covered toe would do that, the shoe is level, no raised heel, just from the front of the frog forward has a plate over. Normally I follow vets instructions to the letter, but this time I am not so sure. The bare foot debate is years behind here in Germany
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Wow what a weird shoe!! Please can those of us addicted to hoof porn have a photo before you take them off???

I can see no biomechanical reason why what you are describing will help your horse at all, no reason why barefoot should have caused it (in my (shod) horse it was too much fast work on hard ground) And every reason why the removal of proprioception caused by those shoes could be detrimental to her recovery.
 
I've done a bit of research, and the toe plate, if it is flat to the floor, is to stop the toe digging in as the horse takes a step. As far as I can see, that would make breakover harder and increase strain on the tendons. Unless it has been done to enable the toe to have been practically butchered to bring the breakover back, and is now covering what is essentially an injury.


ETA. Here's the logic I found, it makes zero sense to me!!!

Shoes useful for horses that have desmitis of the suspensory ligament (SL) include those that encourage the heel to sink into the ground a little. Beveled or penciled branches fit short/to the perimeter with a wide toe are used for these cases. The increase in toe width ‘elevates’ the toe, the heel drops slightly and there is less stress applied to the SDFT and SL.
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Mechanically the width of the toe cannot increase the height!
 
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Hi, will take a pic tomorrow for you :-) am really pleased that at least one other person thinks the logic males no sense for these shoes
 
Yes that's odd!

It is to stop the toe sinking into soft ground as the horse moves, and squaring the toe is supposed to magically raise the height of it somehow.

And how any of that will help a suspensory ligament strain baffles me :)
 
"Shoes useful for horses that have desmitis of the suspensory ligament (SL) include those that encourage the heel to sink into the ground a little. Beveled or penciled branches fit short/to the perimeter with a wide toe are used for these cases."

Difficult to see on the pic as its almost out of frame but the hoof does look deliberately short shod, therefore not supporting the heel buttress and with no additional width from the quarters back too allow for expansion (of course the presence of any shoe prevents expansion anyway).

This would bias more weight through the heel and cause it to sink into any soft surface thus tilting the pedal bone back, pulling on the deep flexor and raising the pastern angle. Any additional tensile stress on the deep flexor will at that time reduce stress on the superficial flexor and the suspensory apparatus.

Perhaps this is the thinking (if any) behind it.


"The increase in toe width ‘elevates’ the toe, the heel drops slightly and there is less stress applied to the SDFT and SL."

As above but still can't see how increase in toe width elevates the toe.
 
It's a great theory isn't it? Let's strain the ddft so we can rest the suspensory. I wonder if there is any real evidence that it works. Is it used in this country, anyone know? It certainly wasn't used on mine back in 1989
 
This makes no sense to me- to relieve strain on the SL you're better to flex the fetlock joint slightly by raising the heel? If you encourage the heel down you're surely extending the SL and putting it under more strain?
 
TheMule said:
This makes no sense to me- to relieve strain on the SL you're better to flex the fetlock joint slightly by raising the heel? If you encourage the heel down you're surely extending the SL and putting it under more strain?
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Although the desmitis is in the suspensory ligament the complete suspensory apparatus must be considered as it is this that holds the pastern and fetlock in its ideal position.

It is at maximum stress at times of heavy landing when it is absorbing a huge amount of energy, the fetlock joint is at full extension and the coffin joint is fully flexed. To have the coffin joint slightly extended by lowering the heel and thus giving the pedal bone a negative palmar angle, stress to the suspensory apparatus is reduced.

This sounds OK but if the injury to the ligament repairs itself in the less stressed "shortened" position it may end up with less length than it needs to function correctly.
 
""This sounds OK but if the injury to the ligament repairs itself in the less stressed "shortened" position it may end up with less length than it needs to function correctly.""

this is exactly what I am currently worrying about

I would really love to hear from any UK vets / Farriers who can give an opinion on this .. am considering checking with one of my previous vets in the UK to see what he thinks ....

On the one hand my experience is telling me this is not a good idea .. on the other hand , I normally follow vets instructions to the letter so goes against the grain , BUT he is saying he would keep shoes on for ever ..... bearing in mind I don't believe he would consider to work a horse generally without shoes .... so how biased that statement is , is open to debate ..

of course .. as with any decision .. I also carry the risk that I do what I think it correct (with only 'vet nurse and 30+ years horse experience) ... then horse goes lame again , vet comes and simply says it is my fault for taking the shoes off :-(
 
I've found that generally vets on the continent are not as enlightened(?)/open(?) as vets in the UK.

Certainly the major vet that I've used in Germany said once I put shoes on as part of a hock spavin treatment, that they would be on for life. After a year I discussed it again, and managed to talk the vet into agreeing to taking them off again. this vet also suggested to use glue-on shoes on an 18month old who had inermittent lameness due to thin soles.

Even most farriers also expect to start shoeing at 2-3 years when the horse starts to work. I'd say that generally the idea of horses being able to "work" without shoes on is many years behind the UK.
 
Thanks cptrayes, will send him a pm, faracat - sadly what had been said is true, the bare foot discussion is years behind the UK in Germany,
 
Where are you in Germany? I had a fantastic bf guy just outside Aachen. His father was a farrier, he trained as one then came over to the dark side. He's trilingual so if the area is any good, pop me a msg and I'll give you his details.
 
You have to decide whether you want to believe your highly trained vet and farrier, or a bunch of people on am Internet forum I am afraid.
 
WestCoast said:
You have to decide whether you want to believe your highly trained vet and farrier, or a bunch of people on am Internet forum I am afraid.
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Because vets and farriers have never been wrong about shoes, of course :)

Vets are not highly trained about shoes or feet, they leave them to farriers, at least in the UK.

UK farriers are not highly trained about resolving lameness problems without shoes. Are German farriers even trained to the level ours are?

So far, no-one on this forum has ever seen remedial shoes like that, even those of us with horses with suspensory ligament issues. It seems to me like there is room for some input from forum members here, especially as the OP was unhappy about the advice she was given and that is why she posted in the first place.

I'd love to hear your experience of using remedial shoeing for suspensory ligament issues If you have any?
 
West coast, I have already said that normally I follow vets advice by the letter, however.... I worked for a large equine clinic for 8 years, so I also understand that vets also make mistakes, my experience in Germany,... (confirmed by a vet here) is that many treatments, new thinking is years behind UK or US.....I am not expecting answers from the Internet, I simply am seeing what opinions others have....people I know have experience and contacts in UK who are more open to more modern therapy,
Farriers are definately not as highly trained here, 3 months training and they can go out and shoe
 
Quick update for anyone interested, after a week of losing one of these strange shoes every other day, spoke to the vet again and got agreement to take the shoes off again 😀. My vet recommended what turned out to be the best chiro/physio /acupuncture lady I have ever come across, she worked on him for almost 2 hours, he appears to have some issues with his pelvis, she agreed with me, that it is very likely the Psd in front was due to this underlying issue,which , after the 7 weeks box rest is now very apparent as he has lost so much muscle . He is still not 100% right but we are seeing some small improvements every day , maybe a ' long haul ' recovery, but I finally feel like we are on the right track ☺
 
WestCoast said:
You have to decide whether you want to believe your highly trained vet and farrier, or a bunch of people on am Internet forum I am afraid.
Click to expand...


Yup why would you ever question a highly trained professional??? They are gods right and just because somethings always been done one way makes it right.
 
GermanyJo said:
Quick update for anyone interested, after a week of losing one of these strange shoes every other day, spoke to the vet again and got agreement to take the shoes off again ��. My vet recommended what turned out to be the best chiro/physio /acupuncture lady I have ever come across, she worked on him for almost 2 hours, he appears to have some issues with his pelvis, she agreed with me, that it is very likely the Psd in front was due to this underlying issue,which , after the 7 weeks box rest is now very apparent as he has lost so much muscle . He is still not 100% right but we are seeing some small improvements every day , maybe a ' long haul ' recovery, but I finally feel like we are on the right track ☺
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Very interesting. It's now quite likely that he will grow some odd shaped feet to match the body issues. If he does, you might need to discourage your farrier from trying to make them look more conventional. For examples of this kind of supportive deviation, check out the blog rockleyfarm.blogspot.com

Keep us updated? Good luck!
 
over the winter he 'self trimmed' , I have found a local barefoot trimmer who seems to have a good rep, so will start there, have a name from WindyStacks (thanks :-) ) as back up.
One thing I did notice over the winter when I was monitoring our progress was that he had some slightly wierd stuff going on with his bars on his right hind .. sadly have no pictures as he has never had shoes behind, so was focusing all photo tracking on the front feet. Due to being 'trimmed' by the farrier behind when he put the shoes on (despite telling him to leave the backs alone) there is not much to see yet, but will be interesting how that RH progresses.
am a regular visitor to the rockleyfarm blog :-)
thanks for the all the comments, will keep you updated
 
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