Bare foot horse and laminitis.

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stencilface

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How much of a failure is it to shoe? :(

I just can't seem to keep him sound. Going to completely remove from the grass for a few days which I've been doing on and off for months but never seem to get anywhere. Then going to shoe if he's still not comfortable. Feel like both our lives are miserable at the moment!

I just want to ride! Is that so selfish?
 
Have you identified the underlying cause? Usually metabolic rather than simply obesity (chicken and egg, metabolic overweight or overweight causing metabolic issues??) And what did xrays reveal?
 
No xrays in the last year. He's not overweight, no crest and I can see and feel ribs. He does get a puffy sheath (which everyone looks nonplussed at but i have read its a sign of EMS?) and sometimes gets sensitivity on his flanks.

He's had his cavallos on overnight, but now he's out in a bare paddock he can have them on tomorrow (providing the rain doesn't make it too slippy, although the rain will obviousky make the going more comfortable)

I'll have a look at shoe options, vet suggested heartbars - I still have the last set from his ddft in 2016. Sigh.
 
Supplements currently are
Linseed
Probalance
Salt
Magnesium

Fed with high fibre nuts. Some protexin will arrive this week.
 
Have you tried EVA pads in the boots?

Blitz wears his for 12 hours a day (for turnout, I take them off at night); and from Friday afternoon until Monday morning (all weekend turnout) without any rubbing or slipping. I do pack his feet (especially around the frogs) with DE to soak up any sweat and to stop thrush from taking hold.

How's your trim? long toes can exacerbate any problems by causing leverage issues.
 
I did similar.
mare had laminitis once confirmed by xray (mild) 4 yrs ago.
very thin soles, sensitive on rough ground. hoof boots rubbed, didn't grip, were a pain in the ass and she wasn't that comfy with them.
feet trimmed every 5 weeks so not over long toes.
fed restricted grass, hay and worked daily. feed wise was on a tiny bit of copra with pro balance.
I shod her as she was just not comfy and she is a different horse.
the perpetually sore back (despite well fitting tack and appropriate weight rider!) disappeared, she strides out confidently and is very happy.
she gets shod every 5 weeks.
shes fed on pure working (only as hard to source copra!), salt and she gets worked every day.
shes in a pen during the day with hay and out on restricted grass overnight.
she does have a large event line since the shoes went on about 2 months ago of very tight growth but she was working a lot harder in shoes v boots as she is a comfy horse. shes also lost weight as ive been able to work her- condition score of 2.8 /5 vrs 3.2 /5 :)

I too felt like a failure as id shod her but seeing her so happy is just amazing.

I also had to shoe one of my other mares as she was slipping a lot BF and I am doing some ODE this year. she is happy in her shoes also and on similar management to my laminitic, except shes not penned during the daytime.
and my ex hunter was not happy on his fronts, needed work to get weight off him so shod in front.
the 4yo is still unshod.

I plan to take off all shoes in sept/nov for 2-3 months and try to keep them off but I wont hesitate to re-shoe if needed.

some horses in some circumstances cannot be comfy or safe worked BF.......
 
That is true amanda but this horse has other diagnoses including navicular which need consideration too. I'm all up for additional comfort but it also needs some future proofing/don't just want to cause other issues.
 
oh right, didn't say anything about navicular in post...

if its metabolic then working him hard in shoes or boots for comfort may mean they can be removed fairly quickly?

boots didn't work for my girl and the hunters feet are too huge to fit anything i've tried.....
(none of my horses have any diagnosis of health issues other than the one laminitis episode mentioned in my reply)
 
If the grass is causing him LGL then I would look into hind gut acidosis and try feeding Equishure.

We are now 3 years lami free - whoop - and he has fab, rock crunching feet all year round (big Tb who does a bit of everything)

It was a lifesaver for him as he'd actually gotten quite poorly, and I've personally seen it work for a wide variation of horses in varying situations.
 
Well I can be positive for once! No more slightly panicked posts I promise, at least not this week.

Norman is sound after 2 days of no grass. Pulses went yesterday, and I've just lunged him and he's positively spritely (ok well less so ok his right rein but that's another issue!). The rain may have helped ;)

He's comfortable on the concrete and also on the stones to our arena. I've turned him out, but will bring him in after 2 hours. He's doesn't seem to eat much of the hay, and He seems slimmer already so i think he needs to eat something. Hopefully can work something out, and people may learn to not just let him on a new field.

It must be metabolic more than concussive surely? Bruising wouldn't heal this quickly.

Protexin in the feed from tonight so hooe fully that will help with my grass.
 
Thanks to everyone btw, sorry for not mentioning the ddft damage, I feel like a broken record.

Is equisure the same as protexin? Will Google. :)
 
stencilface said:
Thanks to everyone btw, sorry for not mentioning the ddft damage, I feel like a broken record.

Is equisure the same as protexin? Will Google. :)
Click to expand...

Equishure is specifically for hind gut acidosis whereas protexin is a gut balancer - unfortunately there's nothing else out there that does what Equishure does, it's quite specific!

Mine can now go out and stay on grass and be a relatively normal horse. I stopped equishure and he instantly had issues again - it affects more than just the feet - so he stays on it. I have another horse who only needs it when she is struggling on the grass. I added it to her feed 3 days ago and she is already sound again :)
 
Well I'll see if the protexin works, it was trimmer recommended (but I have the gut balancer not the acid ease) if it doesn't do anything I'll try equishure :)
 
Just waking this post up again as he was sore over the weekend. Please tell me this is likely related to the sun and the grass? He's on a regime of out during the day and on a bare paddock at night as it seemed to work as I realised our 'days are much shorter so this way he gets 6-7 hours of grass instead if 18.

He does have clear rings on his feet from this year so clearly is getting lami.

The protexin does seem to have formed everything up but clearly not stopped footiness so might have to try the equishure. He was grumpy and sensitive around his flanks and belly on Saturday before he became sore, then I hacked him out and he was ok. Maybe another indicator?

Getting pressure again to shoe and I'm conflicted! :(
 
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A very good equine vet told me years ago that even short spells on grass are bad for laminitics - they can hoover up as much in a couple of hours when they are hungry as most horses will eat in a whole day. Can you not keep him on the bare paddock with hay 24/7?
Mine is on a 3/4 acre almost bare paddock with one other horse and a small net of hay night and morning - and isn't losing weight. When I say bare, it is grazed to the ground but there are shoots for them to nibble at and it is hard not to realise that they are eating grass as it comes through, rather than having nothing to eat.
 
I know, but if I pen him in with just hay he really loses weight, my current regime worked for at least a week :rolleyes3:

The vet said that, and I know he doesn't lift his head much, but my vets suggestion was to muzzle. But he just looks miserable in a muzzle and also becomes impossible to catch. He prefers being off totally as then he gets treats. Lami friendly! He'll be moving onto a thin strip this week as the herd are moving and he'll stress if he's not nearby. So it will be a small track really, that he will be muzzled on for the first few days.
 
I think the recent weather has done something to the grass, yes as mine is more footy this week than he's been at any point this year. (dammit!) In an ideal world I'd replace the grazing muzzle that I removed last month and restrict grazing area and time on the grass. In the real world the reason I removed the muzzle is because the grass was too short for my poor doer pony to get enough of it through the muzzle to prevent weight loss and as not my yard I can't go shutting random fields off. So instead I've resorted to the pony must come off grass earlier in the morning and go back onto it later at night (didn't help that Sat he went out a tad earlier than normal (still after 5pm) and then Sunday I was knackered from being out til just after 1am and not actually getting to sleep til 2 so he was considerably later coming in compared to normal) and I've re-started to sodium bicarb that I stopped a while ago as I kept forgetting to buy some as sometimes this seems to help. Pony turns into an escape artist if separated from his friends in his own paddock (even with a friend or two) which rather limits my management options :( Anyhow just wanted to say I wanted to blooming throw myself (or him!) off the barn roof at times last Spring as was really struggling with his feet, he kept escaping from the beautiful grass free "track" that I lovingly fenced off and put him in with a friend (complete with special bought just for him haylage), he wouldn't eat his feeds with all his foot stuff in and was just generally being nightmarish! Up til this last week he's been a LOT better this year (and I suspect some of the reason he wasn't great yesterday is down to my lie in... I forget sometimes that I'm not allowed them in Summer!) From what you say it sounds like the grass is playing at least some part (In which case just keep thinking that in a few short months it will start to die and turn to mud!) and tbh the inflammation will still be happening if you DO shoe him but you just won't know about it until a lot further down the line when serious damage may have occurred. If you can get through this Summer then every one that comes after will hopefully be just a little bit better, honest!
 
Thanks. I'm going to see if I can last a bit longer, hopefully he'll be happy this morning, put his boots on yesterday at 4pm when I took him off the grass. After he ran away to avoid capture the first time. The rain will at least make his feet more comfortable. Two weeks ago I posted that he was happy so it just has to be the grass.

Also had the same issue with a muzzle, he can't really get anything so looks more miserable than ever.

The farrier is coming tomorrow so I'll ask him about stick on shoes, the thought of nailing through sore feet makes me wince. I'm hoping Steve might be down at the end of July, is he visiting Prince then? Then i can cope better!
 
Can you strip graze him in some format - have a small track or even a corner of a field and move the electric fence into the longer grass daily. You can give him a daily allowance that keeps his weight constant but doesn't affect his blood pressure/feet. I couldn't let mine have free access to normal length grass, even for half an hour, he would cripple himself but when I am grazing off his paddock that works well to limit him
 
That's what I'm going to set up this afternoon hopefully, add a strip to his current small paddock (0.1 acre maybe?). Then I'll put my fat pony in with him for company. Unfortunately someone has read a book on grass management and read up on horsesick pasture now keeps moving them to fresh grass every 2 weeks so the horses are huge.

Also got a comment that he just struggles as he has typical TB feet. Gah!
 
What muzzle are you using SF and is he just being hopeless with it.
F has his on when the fence moves so his field mate eats most he then gets it off later to eat the rougher bits. The rest of the paddock is really short so they also have hay out and he eats hay through his muzzle pretty easily too.
Essentially their stripping is now standing hay (and although there was some other research someone put up the other week about the sugars being better on constantly topped grass I am unconvinced and prefer my standing hay :p)

If he loses weight off the grass is it really daft to suggest he is fed more other stuff? :p
 
No it's not, I was just cottoning on to feeding more hardfeed as he leaves the hay, it was back onto winter rations with oats.

He has a shires bucket muzzle with a hole in the bottom which he hates, and a dinky muzzle which he hates less. I don't mind using them for a few days but after that it's just miserable for us both. He's grumpy because he wears a muzzle and I am because I can't catch the beggar!

Seemingly anything other than 24/7 turnout is hard to grasp round here, unless it's stabling through the winter (which I no longer do). I'll have a chat to the farrier tomorrow to appease but I'm not hopeful, he can be difficult!
 
Not currently planning on tagging onto this visit with Steve, I normally roughly average every 3 months or so (unless I have a crisis / he can't fit me in) so I'm probably aiming for end of August / start of September. In some ways if I'd had the forethought to ask it may have been useful to get his opinion on if he's moving straighter behind since physio (I think that he is) but I'll be getting vet to have a lookie when they're next out anyway(which should be within the next month)

The odd thing with Prince and muzzles is that he doesn't mind it being put on per se (he has a go at rubbing it and he has removed them before but he's not miserable with it) but the grass seems to need to be a couple of inches long for him to be able to eat enough through it to not start dropping weight. (I only ever apply Mr Muzzle when he's still in the stable just before turnout and spent many many months posting treats / bits of carrot through it every time it went on to teach him to put his nose into it as he can be quite headshy) This time last year there was still plenty of grass that length so he still had it on but I suspect due to the dry weather we've had (on other days that aren't today!) it's just not come through as well as it did last year and the majority of it's shorter than that (which of course brings its own issues!).

In an ideal world if it was just mine to consider I'd actually be putting hay out where I am now (and I'd also be resting at least one field a bit for the end of Summer), alas not my yard and at least half the horses in the field are cobby good doers so the relative lack of grass means they aren't going to explode!

Anyhow back to your problems rather than my little irritations... If he's not happy being muzzled and you need to keep setting up new grazing areas for him then would you be able to have a few of the greedier members of the herd go in there during the day (ie when he's in anyway) for a few days to eat it down a bit so there isn't as much grass in there for him to actually eat? (may also encourage him to eat hay as I've noticed that on topped grass when given the option mine will also nibble hay even when there is a decent amount of grazing still on the grass) Another thing I've literally just thought of now is that if they're moving grazing areas every few weeks and he was fine up til a few weeks ago did moving fields and footiness coincide by any chance? It could be the grass in this particular field that is the issue (may have more rye in it, have been more fertilised or some other random reason for it being higher in sugar) rather than all grass everywhere?
 
Also sorry to hear that you've had people making silly comments! (If he was lame in shoes before what do they expect to be different this time around?) I've been quite lucky in that even when I've been on quite a big yard I've not actually come across much open hostility. (I did once get asked if I was going to shoe him again but when I said "no" then that was that really. I do have the added weapon that he was horrendous / dangerous to shoe anyway and I think was becoming a sedation candidate). Current yard are fab at understanding that I have to do what I do or he gets poorly. I forewarned them before I moved on what I may need to have the scope to be able to do and they are happy for me to do pretty much whatever suits (Pity that Prince has other ideas and won't settle there for any length of time if I try to make him his own paddocks away from the herd, he tends to escape back to them so he's my main limiting factor!) plus they have seen him at his worse when I've dropped the ball (They have also seen him at his best when he's a dot disappearing into the distance out hunting / kicking their arses at pony games!) I seem to reach an unspoken understanding with most people that I won't tell them they need to remove their horses shoes if they don't tell me I need to put some on mine! (Unless they're having foot issues in which case I'll nudge the same info I came across their way and let them decide what they wish to do with it)
 
Getting asked if I'll put shoes on him to fix his sore feet is something I get asked at least once a week. He's been bf since 2013. And yes it's comments like that that make me not listen to anything, ad they don't seem to have any understanding at all.

Yes, he gets worse everytime they move! And all I get is, well he wasn't sound last year. But he has more issues than just his feet. It might be that I do shoe him in the summer at some point, but I need to give it fair go at management first. Im sure i didn't have these idsues a few years ago so think its now age related lami. Unfortunately people seem to like to manage it so their horses are obese. Seriously one looks like a Belgian blue. Yes, the cow.

That said I'm not a fan of our farrier, and the world would end if I wanted a different one. Our farrier I can't discuss anything with, it's his way or it's the wrong way.
 
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