stencilface
High upon a hillside
Yes, in April score of 16.
Bare foot horse and laminitis.
- Thread starter stencilface
- Start date
Yes, in April score of 16.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
This is a theory which I have held for a long time now and would like to see research on.
I believe that horses without shoes will get laminitis earlier than those with shoes, and that laminitic horses are easier to control in shoes.
I believe that this is because the blood supply to the foot is reduced by shoes. The laminae are attacked by toxins in the blood. If there is less blood, then there is less toxin.
For that reason, if the horse can tolerate shoes without it causing other issues, I can see a role for shoes in laminitis prevention.
Perhaps the answer in SF's case is to shoe for the spring/summer/early autumn and let the feet recover in winter?
I believe that horses without shoes will get laminitis earlier than those with shoes, and that laminitic horses are easier to control in shoes.
I believe that this is because the blood supply to the foot is reduced by shoes. The laminae are attacked by toxins in the blood. If there is less blood, then there is less toxin.
For that reason, if the horse can tolerate shoes without it causing other issues, I can see a role for shoes in laminitis prevention.
Perhaps the answer in SF's case is to shoe for the spring/summer/early autumn and let the feet recover in winter?
stencilface
High upon a hillside
Ok, I do see that yes, they would definitely be less affected. But how do I stand now with putting shoes on sore feet? Although hopefully they won't be sore this morning! I winced the last time he was shod 
I feel I need to wait a couple of weeks and discuss it with my trimmer, who will help with his feet. I can't discuss it with the farrier. I'm clearly struggling!
I feel I need to wait a couple of weeks and discuss it with my trimmer, who will help with his feet. I can't discuss it with the farrier. I'm clearly struggling!
ycbm
Overwhelmed
Ok, I do see that yes, they would definitely be less affected. But how do I stand now with putting shoes on sore feet? Although hopefully they won't be sore this morning! I winced the last time he was shod
I feel I need to wait a couple of weeks and discuss it with my trimmer, who will help with his feet. I can't discuss it with the farrier. I'm clearly struggling!
I haven't checked back to see if there's any reason why you can't, but perhaps bute?
Fingers crossed for you that he's not sore this morning.
JillA
Well-Known Member
The problem with shoeing when laminae are already compromised is peripheral loading. If the laminae aren't strong enough to hold the walls in place sufficiently to bear the weight of the horse, you are likely to get a breakdown and movement of the pedal bone. Maybe once the laminae are fully healed and the walls are good and strong but until then I would want to see the sole, heels and frog taking as much of the weight as possible - maybe with pads in boots. The key phrase in ycbm's post is PREVENTION, not rehabilitation
Have they researched this question on The Laminitis Site - might be worth asking, they are pretty much up to speed on all the current research
Have they researched this question on The Laminitis Site - might be worth asking, they are pretty much up to speed on all the current research
ycbm
Overwhelmed
You're right, of course, I forgot the peripheral loading when I suggested bute. I was assuming the horse was only sole sore at the moment.
brucea
Well-Known Member
A laminitis prone/actual laminitis horse is one in shoes or out of shoes.
Just in shoes, you'll get a lot less warning and it will be more advanced by the time you realise there is a real problem. I've had both shod and unshod with laminitis.
Shoes will not prevent laminitis, it will only prolong the time until you realise they have laminitis. They may make a footy horse more comfortable by reducing the blood flow to the foot and taking it a little off the ground and if that's what you want then fine, but there are serious drawbacks of shoes on laminitics and I've seen more laminitic horses PTS with shoes on than barefoot frankly.
Problem with laminitis is people tend to focus on the foot - it's the most obvious thing to focus on after all - the process that causes laminitis in most horses starts as far away from the foot as it is possible to get. Focusing on the foot and not implementing a laminitis manageemnt and prevention plan will be counter productive and be in a cycle of recurring lameness
A laminitis plan should focus on providing a nutrient rich diet (fibre, fats, protien, vitamins, minerals all need considered) that is low in sugars and starches, there are many excellent feeds out there. Good quality forrage - hay, soaked if needed, haylege works well.
Minimal grass access. If you don;t have a grass free area, the best area for a laminitic horse to be turned out for short periods is rough grazing with a wide variety of scrubby stuff, preferably under trees. It's an opporuity to bring ground that you might not otherwise consider into use. However if the horse has laminitis now, then basically take away one of the probable causes - grass.
Movement is critical once the initial crisis is over. I use boots when we need to, they work well, they support the whole sole with pads and you can asjust the pad. They're cheaper than shoes too - my pony's boots are 2 years old and still going strong, most of the time he is bare and manages but there are times of the year that he neesd his Gloves for more challenging ground.
Lastly PPID - folks need to be a little more sceptical about the ACTH test - a high test is a confirmation, a low test is not necessarily a negative result for PPID. It really needs to be on a symptomatic view. There are up to 7 hormonal pathways involved in PPID in the horse, ACTH is only one of them (http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaep/2006/pdf/z9100106000055.pdf?hc_location=ufi if you are interested). I have a clearly PPID pony that has never had a result above 75, and as low as 20, but he's absolutely textbook case PPID. One of my cobs always comes in at 80-90 and shows no real signs of PPID apart from a lower tollerance of grass at certain times of the year
Prascend is a one trick pony really, we've used it and it did have some benefits, but I've found that other approaches are very beneficial - e.g. using specific nervine herbs with a SSRI (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor) that impact levels of serotonin and dopamine actually give better longer term results than Prascend. Cheaper too.
Just in shoes, you'll get a lot less warning and it will be more advanced by the time you realise there is a real problem. I've had both shod and unshod with laminitis.
Shoes will not prevent laminitis, it will only prolong the time until you realise they have laminitis. They may make a footy horse more comfortable by reducing the blood flow to the foot and taking it a little off the ground and if that's what you want then fine, but there are serious drawbacks of shoes on laminitics and I've seen more laminitic horses PTS with shoes on than barefoot frankly.
Problem with laminitis is people tend to focus on the foot - it's the most obvious thing to focus on after all - the process that causes laminitis in most horses starts as far away from the foot as it is possible to get. Focusing on the foot and not implementing a laminitis manageemnt and prevention plan will be counter productive and be in a cycle of recurring lameness
A laminitis plan should focus on providing a nutrient rich diet (fibre, fats, protien, vitamins, minerals all need considered) that is low in sugars and starches, there are many excellent feeds out there. Good quality forrage - hay, soaked if needed, haylege works well.
Minimal grass access. If you don;t have a grass free area, the best area for a laminitic horse to be turned out for short periods is rough grazing with a wide variety of scrubby stuff, preferably under trees. It's an opporuity to bring ground that you might not otherwise consider into use. However if the horse has laminitis now, then basically take away one of the probable causes - grass.
Movement is critical once the initial crisis is over. I use boots when we need to, they work well, they support the whole sole with pads and you can asjust the pad. They're cheaper than shoes too - my pony's boots are 2 years old and still going strong, most of the time he is bare and manages but there are times of the year that he neesd his Gloves for more challenging ground.
Lastly PPID - folks need to be a little more sceptical about the ACTH test - a high test is a confirmation, a low test is not necessarily a negative result for PPID. It really needs to be on a symptomatic view. There are up to 7 hormonal pathways involved in PPID in the horse, ACTH is only one of them (http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaep/2006/pdf/z9100106000055.pdf?hc_location=ufi if you are interested). I have a clearly PPID pony that has never had a result above 75, and as low as 20, but he's absolutely textbook case PPID. One of my cobs always comes in at 80-90 and shows no real signs of PPID apart from a lower tollerance of grass at certain times of the year
Prascend is a one trick pony really, we've used it and it did have some benefits, but I've found that other approaches are very beneficial - e.g. using specific nervine herbs with a SSRI (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor) that impact levels of serotonin and dopamine actually give better longer term results than Prascend. Cheaper too.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
Bruce I agree with your entire post (and was fascinated by the last bit, thank you for that) except the quote. If there is a trigger point for the amount of toxin per minute that will give a horse laminitis, and you can reduce the blood supply so that trigger point is not reached, then the horse will not get laminitis.
For horses which are exceptionally difficult to manage, shoes might possibly be the difference between life and death. Though of course it takes no account of what those toxins might be doing to the rest of the body.
I sometimes think we make people feel too guilty about shoeing a horse that gets sore soles.
brucea
Well-Known Member
It's back to the old argument about peripheral support (Bob Bowker's argument)
And I think your argument on the shoes "lowering the trigger point" is kind of a dangerous one. I don;t think there is a trigger point, it'll be different for every horse. I think the trigger point is when the pain becomes unbearable for the horse - that point seems to be a little further down the line in a shod horse, but the damage to the laminae has been done. I don;t believe a shoe prevents that damege, just how well the horse tolerates that damage
I've said before that the first symptoms of laminitis are behavioural - not int he feet. A lowered patience for interference (grooming, touching), a lower frustration tolerance, changing relationship in the herd, suddenly snapping or tail swishing wiht ears back - every time I have seen laminitis I have always seen behavioural changes before any unsoundness even becomes apparent. Sadly that's often a 20;20 hindsight kind of thing.
Think about having mild toothache and having someone bothering you constantly
And I think your argument on the shoes "lowering the trigger point" is kind of a dangerous one. I don;t think there is a trigger point, it'll be different for every horse. I think the trigger point is when the pain becomes unbearable for the horse - that point seems to be a little further down the line in a shod horse, but the damage to the laminae has been done. I don;t believe a shoe prevents that damege, just how well the horse tolerates that damage
I've said before that the first symptoms of laminitis are behavioural - not int he feet. A lowered patience for interference (grooming, touching), a lower frustration tolerance, changing relationship in the herd, suddenly snapping or tail swishing wiht ears back - every time I have seen laminitis I have always seen behavioural changes before any unsoundness even becomes apparent. Sadly that's often a 20;20 hindsight kind of thing.
Think about having mild toothache and having someone bothering you constantly
stencilface
High upon a hillside
Thankyou for all your input. Bruce - he's had the sensitivity for the last couple of years on and off, and had it badly on the weekend when he was footy. He's now happier with no pulses and is sounder. I can see something else is going on with his back-end at the moment, something I think deteriorated with less work. Less of the right work at least!
Our farrier doesnt do stick on shoes, so I didn't continue the discussion further, as no other option was added or raised.
I'm away tomorrow for a week, of course I am, so I'm hoping he'll stay manageable whilst I'm away. Using the tools of grass restriction and booting if he becomes sore.
Our farrier doesnt do stick on shoes, so I didn't continue the discussion further, as no other option was added or raised.
I'm away tomorrow for a week, of course I am, so I'm hoping he'll stay manageable whilst I'm away. Using the tools of grass restriction and booting if he becomes sore.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Ok so with a bit more pondering I think you either keep him off the grass and feed him (or at least when the app says to), and/or try him with a greenguard if the app says it isn't too bad- they aren't my favourite but it does allow them to eat more than the other types.
Someone above suggested shoeing for the summer, I think I said similar on pm the other day and I do think that might be the best option if this is a continually repeating blip/it becomes a welfare issue. BUT with lots of thought as to what shoes to use as we know that his heels want to splat at the soonest opportunity!
Someone above suggested shoeing for the summer, I think I said similar on pm the other day and I do think that might be the best option if this is a continually repeating blip/it becomes a welfare issue. BUT with lots of thought as to what shoes to use as we know that his heels want to splat at the soonest opportunity!
stencilface
High upon a hillside
Thanks, yes I do need to look at shoes, I'll spend my holiday pondering the best and consider new farrier who might have wider shoe options.
I looked at the greenguard muzzles but was reluctant to spend that much on something I might not use if it makes him miserable. Again something to have another look at and add to my useless equipment bank!
I really appreciate everyone's input and I am taking it all on board its just so hard to make decisions when everytime I feel like it will end up being the wrong one. Thankyou for putting up with me and my splatty hooved non fat lami beastie.
I looked at the greenguard muzzles but was reluctant to spend that much on something I might not use if it makes him miserable. Again something to have another look at and add to my useless equipment bank!
I really appreciate everyone's input and I am taking it all on board its just so hard to make decisions when everytime I feel like it will end up being the wrong one. Thankyou for putting up with me and my splatty hooved non fat lami beastie.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
that is what ebay is for silly 
and preloved what size would he be?
I think the fact that your farrier won't consider anything but a nail on is quite telling (not that we didn't know quite how old school previously either)
I would do some farrier contacts but also perhaps some of the composite manufacturers to see 1) if they think it would work given what we know about his feet and 2) if they have any recommended farriers in your area. For instance I am sure those on here that have contacted Andrew at imprint previously have found him very useful. Not cheap obviously but I am fairly sure that is Norman's task in life as he sees, a heady mix of expense and worry
and preloved what size would he be? I think the fact that your farrier won't consider anything but a nail on is quite telling (not that we didn't know quite how old school previously either)
I would do some farrier contacts but also perhaps some of the composite manufacturers to see 1) if they think it would work given what we know about his feet and 2) if they have any recommended farriers in your area. For instance I am sure those on here that have contacted Andrew at imprint previously have found him very useful. Not cheap obviously but I am fairly sure that is Norman's task in life as he sees, a heady mix of expense and worry
Casey76
Well-Known Member
You could also try the easyboot shells/glue ons? they are very modifiable to individual feet of you can heat them up a bit. There is a section at the back of this article from Pete Ramey: http://www.hoofrehab.com/Glove Mods.pdf
brucea
Well-Known Member
It's not easy. There are no "always right" answers, there ois only the "right answer for your horse" and despite the wealth of well meant dogma out there you really have to experiment and find it for yourself.
brucea
Well-Known Member
It may well be that his hindgut is uncomfortable (quite possibly if he has laminitis) so that may account for a "not quite right" on the back end
Interestingly my little lad Bramble has very white skin round his plug hole - he gets quite inflamed around there when he has a laminitic episode (and he is not on grass at all - he's one of these that has a problem when the length of day starts to change) Obviously his poo itrritates him at that time
Linseed is good, as is slippery elm and other mucilage at soothign the gut
Lovethebeach
Well-Known Member
To use the sole and frog but wear a shoe have a look at Duplo's, you can buy yourself and get farrier to fit. After 15 years barefoot my old mare was suffering from thinning soles and these gave her another 4 years of comfort and happy hacking. Hoof and frogs stayed in excellent condition.
Boulty
Well-Known Member
Brucea you have succeeded in fascinating me and making me think (which are both rather rare occurrences at this time of night!) Out of interest what herbs is it that you're suggesting for PPID? Mine is mostly stable on Prascend at the moment (but does still have episodes of footiness in Spring / Summer related to grass) and I don't believe in rocking the boat if I don't need to (tried it before with other issues and then wished that I hadn't!) but good to have options should this not continue to be the case. Also interesting re impending Laminitis and behavioural changes. Prince is a professional grumpy sod anyway and coping with frustration has never been something he's been all that capable of even when totally fine so it can sometimes be difficult to decipher which behaviours are just his personality and which actually mean something but thinking about it yes I HAVE noticed changes in behaviour / odd behaviour / agitation prior to episodes of footiness, the worse of which occurred last Spring (was very close to getting vet to investigate some of it) right before he became bad enough to require complete removal from grass for several months.
Have also had a random thought re the laminitis debate... Would impaired circulation affect toxin removal as well as toxin exposure? (In which case would that cancel out any benefit of reducing circulation to the feet?)
Have also had a random thought re the laminitis debate... Would impaired circulation affect toxin removal as well as toxin exposure? (In which case would that cancel out any benefit of reducing circulation to the feet?)
ester
Not slacking multitasking
If you are worrying reducting circulation to the feet is a problem you are thinking that the toxin theory is that toxin is getting stuck in the feet? that isn't how I had understood it, more of a whole body imbalance situation as a result.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
Good question.
My understanding is that laminitis is caused by toxins delivered in the blood. It's the reduction of the volume delivered that I think has an effect. If the disease itself is creating toxins, then yes fewer of those would be removed. But if you can stop it happening in the first place, then reduced removal of toxins isn't an issue.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
The last time I had a horse with laminitis she was shod on the day after the onset of the attack .
You could see her relief and she was so sore I thought we would have to shoot her .
But in shoes she was instantly mildly lame having been unwilling to move .
She did well and lived another ten years her lami was shock induced after her got caught in a gate .
I would be worried about your farrier is he really good if he isn't going to balance the foot well it's not going to help .
You could see her relief and she was so sore I thought we would have to shoot her .
But in shoes she was instantly mildly lame having been unwilling to move .
She did well and lived another ten years her lami was shock induced after her got caught in a gate .
I would be worried about your farrier is he really good if he isn't going to balance the foot well it's not going to help .
stencilface
High upon a hillside
I just wrong a long reply and it got deleted!
Ester you are right about my horses purpose in life, it's mainly worry with 2% enjoyment! I'll look into second hand on the muzzles. I'll contact the shoe people and probably the laminitis site too.
Casey and lovethebeach thanks for the shoe suggestions I'll have a look at those too.
Bruce, that's interesting, I clearly haven't spent long enough looking at his bum! The protexin doesn't seem to be having a dramatic improvement, although I think is helping. I'm going to get some equishure wheb I get back. He's quite good at self medicating I think, picks cleavers etc given the chance.
Goldenstar I uses to think our farrier was very good, his feet always looked neat and shoes stayed on. Since I've entered the murky world of barefoot I understand how much he misses so I do question stuff, which I'm not sure he likes! we never had issues with feet until my horse, and he's been doing our horses for 30+ years so he's not terrible, just I think I need a more rounded approach now.
Ester you are right about my horses purpose in life, it's mainly worry with 2% enjoyment! I'll look into second hand on the muzzles. I'll contact the shoe people and probably the laminitis site too.
Casey and lovethebeach thanks for the shoe suggestions I'll have a look at those too.
Bruce, that's interesting, I clearly haven't spent long enough looking at his bum! The protexin doesn't seem to be having a dramatic improvement, although I think is helping. I'm going to get some equishure wheb I get back. He's quite good at self medicating I think, picks cleavers etc given the chance.
Goldenstar I uses to think our farrier was very good, his feet always looked neat and shoes stayed on. Since I've entered the murky world of barefoot I understand how much he misses so I do question stuff, which I'm not sure he likes!
we never had issues with feet until my horse, and he's been doing our horses for 30+ years so he's not terrible, just I think I need a more rounded approach now.Scarlett
Well-Known Member
Honestly I know I prattle on about it but try Equishure - it stops the issues starting in the gut in the first place, thus no toxins in the blood to cause the inflammation. We are over nearly 3 years lami free, and he's out 24/7. I also have my mare on it through grass flushes as she gets footy and she is rock crunchingly sound again I know of plenty of other horse in the exact same situation who are managed on it too.
I know of plenty of other horse in the exact same situation who are managed on it too.
stencilface
High upon a hillside
I'm on it Scarlett! Try anything
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
How much does it cost to keep a horse on a maintenance level of Equishure? I did consider trialling it once on another horse, but was :eek3: at the price of a non POM supplement.Honestly I know I prattle on about it but try Equishure - it stops the issues starting in the gut in the first place, thus no toxins in the blood to cause the inflammation. We are over nearly 3 years lami free, and he's out 24/7. I also have my mare on it through grass flushes as she gets footy and she is rock crunchingly sound again
Scarlett
Well-Known Member
If I buy the biggest tub - 7.2kg at around £170.00 - it lasts me 4 months and works out £42 ish a month feedin g 60g a day. During times with little grass I can eek that out a bit longer but feeding a bit less.
It's expensive but the difference it's made has been huge. My big gelding was on the verge of being PTS with Inflamation of the hind gut, he was stick thin, laminitic and lame behind. Within 3 days I saw improvement, more within a week and he's been a big, healthy good doer since. He's TB, still barefoot and has fantastic feet. I've tried taking him off it and he gets crooked and uncomfortable so I have just decided to keep it going. My mare isn't as bad but does get very footy on the lush grass and crooked going right, both of which it sorts out in a few days. I've tried a million other cheaper things but always regret it and end up back on it....
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I have used equishure which was very expensive on a long term basis. It helped a horse who had a hind gut problem and you could see the problem gut wise. Feet wise it made no difference, he was sound over anything barefoot both before and afterwards. The gut problem didn't affect his feet.
Skimming through this thread I haven't seen any comments concerning the trimming of the feet. That is the first place I would look. I remember your horse going to Rockley but I cannot remember if he is farrier trimmed, self trimming or what. I would be looking at the stage of the trimming cycle when he was foot sore, how the actual foot was and whether he was over trimmed or more especially under trimmed.
Having been convinced for years that grass fields were a good part of the problem I now wonder how much both the trim and structure of the foot are responsible when grass is blamed. I have 10. Nine are out on grass 24/7 (except for coming in for feeds) and are sound. The only one with restricted grass is PPID.
Skimming through this thread I haven't seen any comments concerning the trimming of the feet. That is the first place I would look. I remember your horse going to Rockley but I cannot remember if he is farrier trimmed, self trimming or what. I would be looking at the stage of the trimming cycle when he was foot sore, how the actual foot was and whether he was over trimmed or more especially under trimmed.
Having been convinced for years that grass fields were a good part of the problem I now wonder how much both the trim and structure of the foot are responsible when grass is blamed. I have 10. Nine are out on grass 24/7 (except for coming in for feeds) and are sound. The only one with restricted grass is PPID.
stencilface
High upon a hillside
His feet were trimmed 6 or so weeks ago, and trimmer is back out again in 2 weeks, so I don't think it's that.
I will trial the equishure, maybe can get away with it in the worse months. Your horse does sound like mine, thin, laminitic and lame behind! He's not thin so much anymore but if he's off grass he just doesn't eat enough hay to stay in nicer condition.
Need to do a forage analysis to as my horses food is mostly supplements these days!
I will trial the equishure, maybe can get away with it in the worse months. Your horse does sound like mine, thin, laminitic and lame behind! He's not thin so much anymore but if he's off grass he just doesn't eat enough hay to stay in nicer condition.
Need to do a forage analysis to as my horses food is mostly supplements these days!
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I wasn't meaning had the trimmer over trimmed the week before but how he was actually trimmed and if the structure of his foot or indeed the actual trim were not helping. Diet is always blamed but sometimes I wonder if the trimming is equally the problem.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
paddy it is worth saying because I think it important that he was mostly self trimming but when the work reduced earlier this year his heels started to under run again on pictures (at which point I did suggest that if he couldn't be putting the mileage on some judicious trimming might encourage them not to get so excited about disappearing).
I think he is a tricky horse, who has plenty going on physically even outwith the probable grass sensitivity he seems to have so I think he is terribly tricky to manage/balance his separate needs for his attached bits.
I think he is a tricky horse, who has plenty going on physically even outwith the probable grass sensitivity he seems to have so I think he is terribly tricky to manage/balance his separate needs for his attached bits.