barefoot advice please :)

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ghostie

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Complete barefoot newbie here, but i'm musing about having my horse's shoes taken off but I appreciate it isn't as simple as getting them whipped off so would appreciate some advice from those more in the know. i wouldn't do it for a couple of months as we've got a number of changes coming up and he's currently being treated for ulcers, but I'd like to start thinking about it now in case there are things I can be doing to prepare him.

He is a TB with pretty rubbish feet. He wears natural balance shoes and has NAF pro feet as his previous owner fed it and says it helps him. He doesn't have any lameness issues but I can't help but feel it is pointless keeping shoes on him as he doesn't do any road work, and even if we move yards (as per pther thread) we still wouldn't be on roads. I know some people say 'if it aint broke don't fix it' but I can't help but feel we're shoeing him for the sake of it and wondeirng whether the shoeing is contributing to the poor condition of his feet and is essentially a waste of money.

He has just been diagnosed with ulcers, consquently he has to have ad lib hay, and four feeds day of Alfa-A with a small amount of basic cubes. He also has Pink Powder at the moment, but I'm hoping that once his ulcers are treated this shouldn't be necessary. Turnout is for a whole day or night in the summer, but more restricted in the winter. The grass isn't particularly lush.

Is the diet he has for his ulcers consistent with a diet that would work for a barefoot horse? If not are there tweaks that could be made without risking his ulcers coming back? Where would I even begin with getting him to a point that his shoes could come off? Whichever yard we end up on he'll be limited to the facilities they have, so we'll struggle with special surfaces etc. He would be schooling in a sandschool and hacking out on grass/surfaced tracks. His previous owner says that when he loses a shoe he is hopping lame, so I think it would be a gradual process to get him comfortable unshod.

Thank you :)
 
To begin, you have to accept that TB's don't HAVE to have rubbish feet and that the rubbish feet are not his fault :)

Give him a good diet, time, movement and sympathetic hoof care and then see what he has been trying to create all this time.

An ulcer diet, a hoof diet, a laminitis diet and a sensible, healthy diet are all the same thing.
Plenty of alkaline creating forage, low sugar, no cereals and balanced minerals are the way to go.

This often means leaving the beloved, shiny boxes of supplements and feeds behind and going retro with a basic diet ;)

Once you have a healthy hoof, you can take it anywhere. There is no restriction on roadwork or surfaces. A healthy hoof is resistant to excess wear and thrives on abuse.
If you can only manage a semi healthy hoof - then boots can be an excellent compromise between BF and providing protection.
 
Oberon said:
To begin, you have to accept that TB's don't HAVE to have rubbish feet and that the rubbish feet are not his fault :)

Give him a good diet, time, movement and sympathetic hoof care and then see what he has been trying to create all this time.

An ulcer diet, a hoof diet, a laminitis diet and a sensible, healthy diet are all the same thing.
Plenty of alkaline creating forage, low sugar, no cereals and balanced minerals are the way to go.

This often means leaving the beloved, shiny boxes of supplements and feeds behind and going retro with a basic diet ;)

Once you have a healthy hoof, you can take it anywhere. There is no restriction on roadwork or surfaces. A healthy hoof is resistant to excess wear and thrives on abuse.
If you can only manage a semi healthy hoof - then boots can be an excellent compromise between BF and providing protection.
Click to expand...

Oberon could I have some advice please, I am changing my horse onto fibre balance by pure feed (from chaff and a cereal mix), he has a mug of micronised linseed, pro hoof supplement and suppleaze gold joint supplement also a handful of dodson and horrell equibites as well as ad lib hay and hayledge. He lives out 24/7, does this sound like a reasonable diet? thanks
 
All the above:) I got a ISH with rubbish feet 18 months ago, he is on a simple diet of fibre and grass as are all mine, which without trying improved his feet along with a good farrier.
He had his hinds off in the autumn and his fronts about 6 weeks later, he is sound with super feet, he does some roadwork and schools on sand.
We have had just one day when he was slightly lame, probably stood on a stone on his way in from the field, was totally fine the next day.
I think it is more fair to do it in two stages to allow time to make sure it is going well, many are fine without hinds but struggle more when fronts come off.
He has had just one trim and is developing a well balanced foot with very wide and strong frogs.
 
This is interesting, as I have a mare who I have been working (backed last summer and had the winter off with light hacking). She has never been shod, just trims. And we are now thinking maybe we need to put fronts on her as she is getting grit up her hoof between the white line. I pick out her feet morning and night and then wire brush around the edges and wall of the hoof, but still little tiny tiny pieces ride up.

Does anyone else have this problem?

Apart from her maybe slipping on grass while jumping, this is the only reason why I am contemplating getting her shod.
 
OP - I've got a navicular TB mare who also has spavin, PSLD and arthritis of the fetlock. She had her shoes taken off in November. I spent weeks wondering if I had done the right thing, she was footsore (and I couldn't work her because the PSLD meant that she had to have limited turnout and no work). She had the tiniest TB feet ever - high heel/low heel syndrome and vets wrote her off as good for nothing apart from companion or brood mare.

I rode her on Sunday for the first time in seven months. Unfortunately it hasn't cured her nappy rearing marish behaviour, but she was sound. And her feet look fantastic although we're long-reining out and riding in hoof boots as I'm not sure she's fully ready to go bare yet! If I can do it, anyone can. Good luck!
 
victoria1980x said:
Oberon could I have some advice please, I am changing my horse onto fibre balance by pure feed (from chaff and a cereal mix), he has a mug of micronised linseed, pro hoof supplement and suppleaze gold joint supplement also a handful of dodson and horrell equibites as well as ad lib hay and hayledge. He lives out 24/7, does this sound like a reasonable diet? thanks
Click to expand...

The Fibre Balance and Pro Hoof are trying to provide the same nutrients, so you are duplicating. It shouldn't do any harm but you may save money by just using the Pro Hoof and an unmollassed base mix with the linseed. The joint supplement is up to you - if you find it helps, then continue.

I assume the Equibites are a treat?
 
Oberon said:
The Fibre Balance and Pro Hoof are trying to provide the same nutrients, so you are duplicating. It shouldn't do any harm but you may save money by just using the Pro Hoof and an unmollassed base mix with the linseed. The joint supplement is up to you - if you find it helps, then continue.

I assume the Equibites are a treat?
Click to expand...

thanks just sent you a pm as well, they are a treat but contain vitamins and minerals which I give as he doesn't get fed at the suggested amount of feed due to his weight and light workload.
 
littlepony said:
This is interesting, as I have a mare who I have been working (backed last summer and had the winter off with light hacking). She has never been shod, just trims. And we are now thinking maybe we need to put fronts on her as she is getting grit up her hoof between the white line. I pick out her feet morning and night and then wire brush around the edges and wall of the hoof, but still little tiny tiny pieces ride up.

Does anyone else have this problem?

Apart from her maybe slipping on grass while jumping, this is the only reason why I am contemplating getting her shod.
Click to expand...

It happens all the time with newly unshod horses and it does not matter at all. Some people pick it out, some leave it. More will get in if you pick it out anyway. In time, if you have the diet right, the white line will tighten up and it will become much rarer. Could you actually be cleaning the white line too much and wearing a little trough that the grit can get into?
 
littlepony said:
This is interesting, as I have a mare who I have been working (backed last summer and had the winter off with light hacking). She has never been shod, just trims. And we are now thinking maybe we need to put fronts on her as she is getting grit up her hoof between the white line. I pick out her feet morning and night and then wire brush around the edges and wall of the hoof, but still little tiny tiny pieces ride up.

Does anyone else have this problem?

Apart from her maybe slipping on grass while jumping, this is the only reason why I am contemplating getting her shod.
Click to expand...

Perhaps post us a couple of pics on a thread?

A stretched WL is indicating a weakened laminae (the WL is the bottom on the laminae).

This is very common at this time of year.

My own horse's WL look less than ideal at this time of year. The unstable sugars in the grass in the spring plays havoc with the hooves.

Restricting access to sugar and allowing a healthy balance of minerals (or at least providing more magnesium) can help. As can work (as long as the horse is comfortable).

I don't personally restrict grazing - although grazing at night is an option I would consider, but I do balance my minerals as much as possible (they really CBA with bucket feeds at the moment :p) and I have found improvements to the WL from the mineral balancing alone.

Otherwise, a good stiff brush after work is fine.

Shoeing is an option - but that will just hide the WL...it won't fix the internal issue. Plus you run the risk of getting stones between the shoe and WL that you can't get to.

lamellarwedge.jpg
 
victoria1980x said:
thanks just sent you a pm as well, they are a treat but contain vitamins and minerals which I give as he doesn't get fed at the suggested amount of feed due to his weight and light workload.
Click to expand...

They shouldn't be necessary with the diet you are providing already (forage and minerals).

But if you want to feed them as a treat....who are we to deny him ;)
 
cptrayes said:
It happens all the time with newly unshod horses and it does not matter at all. Some people pick it out, some leave it. More will get in if you pick it out anyway. In time, if you have the diet right, the white line will tighten up and it will become much rarer. Could you actually be cleaning the white line too much and wearing a little trough that the grit can get into?
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Agree that diet is the main factor here,but a pasture trim leaving the walls slightly long can also encourage stretching and little stones getting lodged.
Also, I think it is a good idea to remove these stones. My farrier reports that they can stack up and cause absessing. I use a tiny screwdriver for the more stubborn ones,but as I said before,if I get stones it means I have not done enough work with him and he needs a trim.:)
 
I also like to smear Red Horse's Field Paste on the WL before going for a hack. It just provides a gentle barrier. It's probably not necessary....but it makes me feel better :p
 
thanks guys. I am totally clueless about this, but is my current diet sufficiently low sugar? Would I need to soak his hay to reduce the sugars in it?

Would I just take his hinds off and see how he gets on, or have him on a low sugar diet for a particular period of time first? His current diet is a recent one as he only changed onto his ulcer friendly one today.
 
ghostie said:
thanks guys. I am totally clueless about this, but is my current diet sufficiently low sugar? Would I need to soak his hay to reduce the sugars in it?

Would I just take his hinds off and see how he gets on, or have him on a low sugar diet for a particular period of time first? His current diet is a recent one as he only changed onto his ulcer friendly one today.
Click to expand...

Your horse will tell you if his diet is acceptable by being comfortable on his hooves and growing good quality horn with a tight WL.

Some horses don't manage well on alfalfa (although many do) but if it is recommended for his ulcers, then that is more important at this time. My own forage is too high in calcium to accommodate alfalfa in their diet.

Soaking hay is only necessary if your horse is laminitic or Insulin Resistant.

Hooves will mirror the health of the entire horse. If his hooves are good quality - then his diet is fine. If not, then the diet is the first thing to look at. It tends to be a bit of a blind spot with most people though - myself included;)

You can peruse the threads on here for more info
http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/forum8.php
 
ghostie said:
thanks guys. I am totally clueless about this, but is my current diet sufficiently low sugar? Would I need to soak his hay to reduce the sugars in it?

Would I just take his hinds off and see how he gets on, or have him on a low sugar diet for a particular period of time first? His current diet is a recent one as he only changed onto his ulcer friendly one today.
Click to expand...

IMO if you are prepared to soak hay(this should not intefere with his ulcer management) then go for it! If you reduce sugar and cut out cereals(all ulcer busting stuff) and perhaps get your hay analysed and balance minerals accordingly,then you should have awesome feet within the next year(less if you get them out and about on roads and tracks:D)
Then you can start not soaking hay and see if it makes a difference.
Doing just hinds(tomorrow!) would make the transition easier for you. Getting the diet right,which you have with the ulcer management should make the transition of the fronts easy.

Good luck.
Keep us posted. We like feet pictures too;)
 
thank you, you are all very patient with my stupidity ;)

So, the little bit of basic cubes/nuts that he gets with his alfafla - is that a bad idea in terms of cereal content? I'm confused as I know cereals are bad for ulcers, but the vet said to give him 1/3rd of a scoop at each meal. Is that just to make me feel better about the limited hard feed, or is it there for a purpose?

Also, is Hifi the same as Alfa-A and both essentially alfafla and fine?

If I take his hinds off and he is lame or footsore what do I do, just leave him to it and rest him until he comes sound? Thinking that will have to wait until after we move yards and he comes off isolation as I don't want him foot sore when he has no choice but to stand in a stable, or would it be better for him to be keep in at the point anyway?
 
OP, just a further observation from my experience... the ulcers will affect the quality of the hoof. Fix the gut, and you will find the horse makes far better use of their feed, and the hoof quality will magically improve as a consequence. That will make the feet much better able to cope with no shoes :)
 
OP go for it!! My tb ex-racer has been barefoot since last summer and now has fab rock crunching feet!

He has very thin hoof walls and poor hoof growth and was a nightmare to keep shoes on. Changed to a barefoot diet, bought some Easyboot Gloves for his fronts and away we went. I have been very careful building his feet up but we are now in the process of doing away with the Easyboots!

I am very lucky that my farrier has been supportive the whole way, but even he said that my horse would be dead in the wild with his crappy feet :eek:

We are now about 6/7 months down the line. Horsey looks fantastic on the barefoot diet and I feel very smug ha ha :D
 
ghostie said:
thank you, you are all very patient with my stupidity ;)

So, the little bit of basic cubes/nuts that he gets with his alfafla - is that a bad idea in terms of cereal content? I'm confused as I know cereals are bad for ulcers, but the vet said to give him 1/3rd of a scoop at each meal. Is that just to make me feel better about the limited hard feed, or is it there for a purpose?

Also, is Hifi the same as Alfa-A and both essentially alfafla and fine?

If I take his hinds off and he is lame or footsore what do I do, just leave him to it and rest him until he comes sound? Thinking that will have to wait until after we move yards and he comes off isolation as I don't want him foot sore when he has no choice but to stand in a stable, or would it be better for him to be keep in at the point anyway?
Click to expand...

I think the vet is aware that TBs are traditionally hard to keep weight on,and cereals have always been 'the answer' to this.
Have a look here http://www.thepurefeedcompany.com/products and don't be afraid to give them a call. Robert,one of their nutritionists has looked into ulcers. As others have said,an ulcer busting diet will suit a barefoot horse........or any horse for that matter!
I have found the way to keep weight on is ad lib forage. I go for late cut meadow hay if possible(maximum fibre,minimum sugar)
Regarding the change of yard/time of shoe removal,perhaps while he is doing little you should go for it. Then when his ulcers are healed and he is properly settled in his new home you can start to bring him back to work.

Sorry,cannot answer you question on Hifi/Alfa A. I know some dengie products contain molasses and some purists regard the additions to make the stuff free flowing to be alarming! Welcome to the minefield!
 
I find this so interesting, thank you for all the information on here. Only problem is I think the farrier is at home with my mum as I type, recommending trying natural balance shoes on the fronts....and I'm at work reading all this great advice on here. I will let you know what he thinks.

I didn't realise/well, think about the sugars in the feed would contribute to the WL/Barefoot- but thinking about it and laminitus it makes perfect sense :o

In relation to diet, we tend not to feed much hard feed. The said mare is in at night as I have a colt in the adjacent field (I don't want any naughtiness going on at night!!) Her field is an organic pasture field. In the stable she gets hay-ledge, Organic - which we make on the farm. It's big bails wrapped in plastic.

Would you think this diet is too high is sugars for barefoot?

Cheers and thanks again for all the advice :)
 
littlepony said:
I find this so interesting, thank you for all the information on here. Only problem is I think the farrier is at home with my mum as I type, recommending trying natural balance shoes on the fronts....and I'm at work reading all this great advice on here. I will let you know what he thinks.

I didn't realise/well, think about the sugars in the feed would contribute to the WL/Barefoot- but thinking about it and laminitus it makes perfect sense :o

In relation to diet, we tend not to feed much hard feed. The said mare is in at night as I have a colt in the adjacent field (I don't want any naughtiness going on at night!!) Her field is an organic pasture field. In the stable she gets hay-ledge, Organic - which we make on the farm. It's big bails wrapped in plastic.

Would you think this diet is too high is sugars for barefoot?

Cheers and thanks again for all the advice :)
Click to expand...

Most horses manage well with the basic forage and can use the sugars fine when they are not having to cope with buckets of conditioning feeds etc on top.

Your horse will tell you if there is too much sugar in the diet by being gimpy on hard surfaces post when you would expect them to be comfortable.

Natural Balance shoes were invented by Gene Ovneick - who is an American farrier who went and observed the hooves of feral mustangs (just like Jaime Jackson). From his observations, he developed the NB trim and shoe to try and mimic the function of the feral hoof.

So basically, NB shoes are just an attempt at the gains of barefoot hoof function.

The eased break over and the inclusion of bearing weight on the toe callous are helpful - but shoes cannot engage the crucial caudal hoof as well. And the sole and toe callous do like pressure....but only pressure and release. Continuous pressure (such as a nailed on shoe) is not the same.
 
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