Barefoot advice

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emfen1305

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I made the decision at the end of the summer to keep my gelding barefoot all round. He always loses his right shoe in winter in the mud but I have always been told he has good, strong feet so doesn't really need them. I liked having them on in the summer because we do more hacking and the ground can be quite stony around us but I plan to get some boots! Can I have some advice on what people think about his feet? He is being trimmed by an EP now and she doesn't seem to have any concerns but just wondered what people thought. We are currently investigating and treating him for a myriad of issues hind end and back issues so was wondering whether his feet would have anything to do with it! I hope the photos work...Thanks! https://imgur.com/a/7ccLl
 
I'm almost certain that if you take away the hair on the hinds, you have a broken back hoof pastern angle (and possible bull nosed feet) which would indicate negative coffin bone angle. I would expect you to be reporting back or sacroiliac pain with that conformation. Though whether the feet are causing the back, or the back the feet, is another question. I would be tempted to try him with wedge hind shoes for a short while to see if it helps with the other issues.
 
ycbm said:
I'm almost certain that if you take away the hair on the hinds, you have a broken back hoof pastern angle (and possible bull nosed feet) which would indicate negative coffin bone angle. I would expect you to be reporting back or sacroiliac pain with that conformation. Though whether the feet are causing the back, or the back the feet, is another question. I would be tempted to try him with wedge hind shoes for a short while to see if it helps with the other issues.
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I've added two new photos to the album - not the best quality, of when he was clipped out in the summer that better show - is that any use or would they need to be from the floor angle? He has been diagnosed with hock arthritis and bilateral PSD though vet suggests SI joint issues as do I but yet to be confirmed! Would xrays help to see what we are working with?
 
Yes, floor level shots are needed :)

Yes, I would have x rays taken. If you have negative coffin bone angle, he needs some help or you will never get the SI or PSD right. It's one of only two cases where I would recommend shoes and the only time I would recommend wedges, and only ever on the hind feet.
 
They don't look unlike when F was growing his negative coffin angle out to me, the top inch or so anyway.

BUT that was in front, and he didn't have any of those other issues going on. Those I've known try hind wedges the horse either seems to like them straight off or continually hate them, which at least makes it easy to try and see.
 
ycbm said:
Yes, floor level shots are needed :)

Yes, I would have x rays taken. If you have negative coffin bone angle, he needs some help or you will never get the SI or PSD right. It's one of only two cases where I would recommend shoes and the only time I would recommend wedges, and only ever on the hind feet.
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I thought so! I am letting him grow leg warmers as he's not in work at the moment due to the issues so no need to keep him clipped!

OK I will mention to the vet - is it worth having front's taken as well? Just in case there is something missing there and he is compensating? I mentioned on other posts that he is a candidate for surgery for the PSD and it has been recommended that he has it done once we find out what else is wrong, if i do opt for surgery, when would it be best to shoe him? Will he need to be shod for the rest of his life with wedges or is it just a temporary thing? Also I assume he will need front shoes on too rather than just backs..

I am really disappointed that none of 3 vets, 2 farriers, and barefoot trimmer have picked up or mentioned anything to do with his feet despite me raising concerns about his conformation..starting to make me question how much I can really trust the "professionals!"
 
ester said:
They don't look unlike when F was growing his negative coffin angle out to me, the top inch or so anyway.

BUT that was in front, and he didn't have any of those other issues going on. Those I've known try hind wedges the horse either seems to like them straight off or continually hate them, which at least makes it easy to try and see.
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Thanks - by hate them do you mean just moving awkwardly? My only concern is how muddy our fields are, i just can see them coming off as soon as they are put on. I am not sure how much of an improvement I would see with them on now, he is out of work until the insurance decides what they are doing as he is bilaterally lame with right hind worse due to the suspensories (an other issues probably but only blocked as far as the suspensories!) I am not sure if he would move any better in them in his current state!
 
I think we've used the same vet previously and I would not be shocked at them being clueless about feet :o...

I also had to do a lot of my own research and trust I knew my horse best, hope you can get him sorted out :).
 
I should add he did not block to the fetlock or pastern on his lame leg - not sure how indicative that is of what is going on in there!
 
Christmas_Unicorns said:
I think we've used the same vet previously and I would not be shocked at them being clueless about feet :o...

I also had to do a lot of my own research and trust I knew my horse best, hope you can get him sorted out :).
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Thank you - yes we did, I have changed now to one with a clinic and seemed that we were getting somewhere but just worried nobody is talking about his feet! I'll go armed with my research and ask for the xrays!
 
Christmas_Unicorns said:
Yes I found being vocal and determined is key! Good luck :)
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Thank you! Yes I learnt a hard lesson from last time! Luckily new vet seems open to multiple issues and agreed that both vets last time pinned everything on one issue rather than looking at the bigger picture so there is some home they will listen to me rather than shrug me off!
 
Sorry me again - is there a good website or book I can get that I can read up on hoof/leg things? Feeling totally overwhelmed and have no idea where to start with getting my horse fixed!
 
emfen1305 said:
Sorry me again - is there a good website or book I can get that I can read up on hoof/leg things? Feeling totally overwhelmed and have no idea where to start with getting my horse fixed!
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The trouble is you need one that focuses on hind hoof issues. I don't know of any, sorry. I've always found hind hooves much more difficult to resolve.

Nic Barkers new book on Amazon is good, though. But I personally think the amount of magnesium she feeds is unnecessary.

The idea with wedges is that they take the strain off the suspensory ligaments, which should allow them to heal. Then you can reduce the wedges by degrees and then hope to get the horse into sufficient work to rebuild the heel height barefoot.

I would not be allowing a PSD operation on this horse until you have x rays, and if you have negative coffin bone angle, until you have tried wedges.

I'm not sure whether I would shoe in front or not. Depending on how he moves in front, I think I'd try to avoid it.
 
ycbm said:
The trouble is you need one that focuses on hind hoof issues. I don't know of any, sorry. I've always found hind hooves much more difficult to resolve.

Nic Barkers new book on Amazon is good, though. But I personally think the amount of magnesium she feeds is unnecessary.

The idea with wedges is that they take the strain off the suspensory ligaments, which should allow them to heal. Then you can reduce the wedges by degrees and then hope to get the horse into sufficient work to rebuild the heel height barefoot.

I would not be allowing a PSD operation on this horse until you have x rays, and if you have negative coffin bone angle, until you have tried wedges.

I'm not sure whether I would shoe in front or not. Depending on how he moves in front, I think I'd try to avoid it.
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Thank you, i'll have a look! I'm definitely going to push for the xrays, I need to get the whole picture of what I need to work with really and not try to fixate too much on one issue! His front end has never really been looked at, not in a great amount of detail anyway! I might ask for front xrays as well while we are at it, just in case he is compensating behind if he has issues in front! Just so difficult, wish i could just havea chat with him! Thanks for your help!
 
You're welcome :)

I think it's a very good idea to get front ones too. Don't get hung up on any changes to the navicular bone, if there are any. Around 50% of sound horses are reckoned to have them. Front foot problems are usually balance and soft tissue related, either too low a heel or squiffy side to side.
 
ycbm said:
You're welcome :)

I think it's a very good idea to get front ones too. Don't get hung up on any changes to the navicular bone, if there are any. Around 50% of sound horses are reckoned to have them. Front foot problems are usually balance and soft tissue related, either too low a heel or squiffy side to side.
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That is really good to know - I would have definitely been concerned if i'd seen changes!! Would he likely be lame in front if there were some issues that you mentioned? His toes are much longer on his hinds and the heel much lower, I've always thought his fronts looked OK but I suppose that was only in comparison to his hinds!

A bit off topic of the hooves but so far on my list i have front xrays, hind xrays, SI joint and surrounding area (not sure if this is an xray or scan, i know MRI is the done thing but hoping not to go down that route..) and spinal xrays for Kissing Spine - with his diagnosis of the PSD, known mild changes to the hocks, recurring grade 3/4 ulcers and symptoms of SI joint pain (holds tail to one side, stands camped under at times, reactive when manipulated as well as behavioural issues) - is there anything else you would recommend I ask to be looked at?

I am on the waiting list for Rob the horseback vet and have been since October but not likely to be up this way for a bit (hopefully Feb!). In the meantime, I have contacted another well recommended physio to come out and try to keep him comfortable in the mean time, he is looking pretty sorry for himself at the moment!
 
The angle is shallower in front feet. They look ok to me, and in any case I would go barefoot for most front foot issues, and he already is :) He just needs work, but you can't do that until he is comfortable, so it's a bit chicken and egg.

I hope that you don't get the full house, but kissing spine, SI strain, PSD and ulcers are often found all together.
 
ycbm said:
The angle is shallower in front feet. They look ok to me, and in any case I would go barefoot for most front foot issues, and he already is :) He just needs work, but you can't do that until he is comfortable, so it's a bit chicken and egg.

I hope that you don't get the full house, but kissing spine, SI strain, PSD and ulcers are often found all together.
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Thanks so much for all of your advice, feeling much more prepared and like I have a bit of a plan of attack now! It is so overwhelming when there are so many issues, I just want my old horse back even if after all this he just becomes a field ornament! Yes I plan on keeping him barefoot if I can but if he needs wedges then happy to try those behind!

I've just had the call from the vets confirming they have sent the docs to the insurance company so keeping my fingers crossed they will come back with the thumbs up!
 
emfen1305 said:
I am on the waiting list for Rob the horseback vet and have been since October but not likely to be up this way for a bit (hopefully Feb!). In the meantime, I have contacted another well recommended physio to come out and try to keep him comfortable in the mean time, he is looking pretty sorry for himself at the moment!
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Get Tom Beech out. I've given up completely with Rob Jackson. Despite being an existing client with a lame horse I am still waiting for even a rough idea of an appointment time months later. Tom came out within 10 days and actually IMHO did a slightly better job. He definitely takes more of a whole horse approach and went over mine with a fine tooth comb.
 
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